Hi, I am new to the forum and have read a lot of information over the internet about fireplace inserts... I'm sooooooooooo confused. I've just now stumbled onto this forum and read some of the posts regarding selecting a wood burning insert. I'm still at a loss how to tackle this... My biggest challenge is that I am a renter. The house is currently heated from an old heating oil furnace that is costing us a bundle and it hasn't even gotten cold yet. Last year the first time we had to fill the tank was just after moving into the place (100 gallons - it just about did us in) and then the reality of our mistake sunk in. Problem number two, we still don't have much in our budget. The third thing that I am concerned about is I do not feel good about our landlords abilities to have anything to do with choosing one or the installation of something that may be acquired for the purpose of keeping us warm. Other than his permission! This is a 3br - 2 & 1/2 bath with a loft that has a vaulted ceiling over LR. The windows are single pane, aluminum sash, and I can't even reach two of them so using plastic will only help so much. I'm attempting to find a viable way to keep from running the forced air furnace so much as the electricity to power it and the cost of the heating oil combine to be astronomical. Help... I haven't even talked to the landlord yet because I want to be well informed first. There is a masonry fireplace, that measures about 36" wide X 27" high X 42" deep (of that 18" is the depth of the hearth). The top of the fireplace is arched and the box (of course) tapers inside so measurements of an insert will need to take into account these variables. Is it even worth looking into getting an insert- - -it might need to be a cheap or free one- - -is that safe?
Where do I begin to overcome these challenges???
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GVA
Minister of Fire
I would think you may be able to stick a Englander NC-13 in the opening...........Guys........
Enter the experts........................Here..
Enter the experts........................Here..
There are a lot of people who know more about this kind of stuff than I do, and I'm sure that some of them will have some advice. However, just to get the ball rolling on this, I do have some general thoughts:
A decent insert, even a used one, is not cheap. I wouldn't think that you could find a free one that would be worthwhile. You also need to have a stainless steel liner for the chimney, which will cost a few more bucks. Unless you feel comfortable doing your own installation, that will be an additional expense. Also, it doesn't sound as though you have firewood yet, so if you want to burn this winter you will have to purchase that (or pellets) as well. It all adds up.
Because you are a renter, I don't know if you will be in the house long enough to recoup your initial outlay. I would not be comfortable making that kind of investment in money and effort without having a chance to reap the reward for quite a while to come.
Of course, you could take the unit with you if you went to another house, assuming that it had a fireplace that could handle it. But then you might be leaving the liner kit behind and I'm not sure the landlord would be comfortable with that.
All in all, it sounds as though there are some variables in the equation that complicate the situation and make it difficult to render a fully informed opinion, but an insert may not be your best answer. Perhaps the most cost-effective solution is to suck it up for the remainder of your lease and then move to someplace that's more energy efficient.
A decent insert, even a used one, is not cheap. I wouldn't think that you could find a free one that would be worthwhile. You also need to have a stainless steel liner for the chimney, which will cost a few more bucks. Unless you feel comfortable doing your own installation, that will be an additional expense. Also, it doesn't sound as though you have firewood yet, so if you want to burn this winter you will have to purchase that (or pellets) as well. It all adds up.
Because you are a renter, I don't know if you will be in the house long enough to recoup your initial outlay. I would not be comfortable making that kind of investment in money and effort without having a chance to reap the reward for quite a while to come.
Of course, you could take the unit with you if you went to another house, assuming that it had a fireplace that could handle it. But then you might be leaving the liner kit behind and I'm not sure the landlord would be comfortable with that.
All in all, it sounds as though there are some variables in the equation that complicate the situation and make it difficult to render a fully informed opinion, but an insert may not be your best answer. Perhaps the most cost-effective solution is to suck it up for the remainder of your lease and then move to someplace that's more energy efficient.
jtp10181
Minister of Fire
Something like this would fit but is probably out of your budget.
http://www.quadrafire.com/Products/Wood_Burning/Wood_Model.asp?f=3100Iact
Going by that it seems many inserts would fit, just so they clear the lower sections of the arch. Since your hearth is only 18" you probably also want to look for a flush insert or you will have to extend it.
Lopi makes some larger size flush inserts
http://www.lopistoves.com/product_guide/detail.aspx?id=219
http://www.quadrafire.com/Products/Wood_Burning/Wood_Model.asp?f=3100Iact
Going by that it seems many inserts would fit, just so they clear the lower sections of the arch. Since your hearth is only 18" you probably also want to look for a flush insert or you will have to extend it.
Lopi makes some larger size flush inserts
http://www.lopistoves.com/product_guide/detail.aspx?id=219
thats a doozie. i dont think its going to be that cheap. but niether is that much heating oil. have you considered biodiesel? my supplier is getting from the US because he says they are subsidizing it at 1 dollar a gallon. im not sure if its much cheaper than heating oil, but your gandchildgen will thank you.
Harley
Minister of Fire
From the picture - I think that's going to be a little bit of a challenge to get any insert or stove in there that will heat well and at the same time not have to make any alterations to the existing fireplace.
I think I'd talk to the landlord first, and see how receptive they would be about changing what is there. Certainly there's a lot you could do there to reduce your heating costs, but it may not be worth it if the landlord doesn't want any changes there.
I think I'd talk to the landlord first, and see how receptive they would be about changing what is there. Certainly there's a lot you could do there to reduce your heating costs, but it may not be worth it if the landlord doesn't want any changes there.
webbie
Seasoned Moderator
The chimney liner is going to be the killer. I think you can get lucky and find a stove that might fit....maybe for less than $200 or better, but you have to install it. Check the size of the flue tile, and get back to us. Also, is the chimney interior or exterior?
If you can get away (depending on answer) with just a "direct connect" installation, you will spend about 150-200 on material. If you have to reline to the top, a DIY will be about 350 - assuming you (or a good friend) are very skilled.
So, roughly speaking, 500-600 at the lowest end if you get lucky on a used model and also have handy friends. Too bad you don't live in mass. or near Corie or some other members......some of the folks here have done some "barn raising" for those in tough positions like you.
If you can get away (depending on answer) with just a "direct connect" installation, you will spend about 150-200 on material. If you have to reline to the top, a DIY will be about 350 - assuming you (or a good friend) are very skilled.
So, roughly speaking, 500-600 at the lowest end if you get lucky on a used model and also have handy friends. Too bad you don't live in mass. or near Corie or some other members......some of the folks here have done some "barn raising" for those in tough positions like you.
Don't take this the wrong way, but have you considered moving and finding another place to rent? Possibly something more modern (better heating) or overall better insulated? Or have you discussed with your landlord renegotiating your rent? I know back when we rented, utilities were included, so it was his dime not ours come winter to heat the place. Gave him incentive to insure the place was energy efficient.
The other issue is sometimes (in my case and others I've read about here) to get the insert properly installed, and liner put in, permanent modifications are needed to the fireplace (i.e. damper cut out). Would your landlord allow that? Once done, some mods make the fireplace un-useable.
The other issue is sometimes (in my case and others I've read about here) to get the insert properly installed, and liner put in, permanent modifications are needed to the fireplace (i.e. damper cut out). Would your landlord allow that? Once done, some mods make the fireplace un-useable.
Hey, Thanks to everyone who replied, and for all the information - - - it's a lot to consider... As far as the wood supply, a friend has just talked to me about a great deal on a cord of Maple wood, delivered so I'm encouraged about that. That same friend is doing some checking on rounding up some leads. Both for a used insert and the people that might be able to professionally install it. She assures us that a small unit will do just great to heat our living space. She's an angel that just might be able to pull together enough pieces of the tapestry that a beautiful picture might emerge.
I agree that a flush insert should be what we concentrate our efforts toward obtaining. We can then still take advantage of the hearth. We will absolutely talk to the landlord first, as a matter of fact I plan on (if we can put this together) surpassing "his standards" just so I'm clear on the safety issues, and being covered for any and all legal points before they can turn into problems. We wouldn't want to take the unit with us when moving - - -just not a good option to think about- - -so we'd be "asking" for a kickback from (or some deduction off rent to offset) our investment. Might even get our socks blessed off by our landlord offering to carry some of the initial cost, should he be feeling able and willing to be a big part of this, it is his house after all. He had spoken to us when we moved in last February that he'd thought of "someday" putting in an old insert he had...
The chimney liner ??? Check the size of the flue tile ??? Also, is the chimney interior or exterior? It is exterior. Well, one out of three...
Biodiesel is more expensive here than the regular heating oil we are currently using and there is the added cost of switching; not something that will help... I'd love to not use the oil furnace ever again. At least cut down the usage to almost nothing. We didn't turn it on from around mid May till about three weeks ago.
I have not discussed this with our landlord (NOT YET) but the idea of renegotiating our rent is a wonderful dream?
Again, Thanks to all of you and I'll keep you all informed when we make progress on this endeavor.
Gwyn
I agree that a flush insert should be what we concentrate our efforts toward obtaining. We can then still take advantage of the hearth. We will absolutely talk to the landlord first, as a matter of fact I plan on (if we can put this together) surpassing "his standards" just so I'm clear on the safety issues, and being covered for any and all legal points before they can turn into problems. We wouldn't want to take the unit with us when moving - - -just not a good option to think about- - -so we'd be "asking" for a kickback from (or some deduction off rent to offset) our investment. Might even get our socks blessed off by our landlord offering to carry some of the initial cost, should he be feeling able and willing to be a big part of this, it is his house after all. He had spoken to us when we moved in last February that he'd thought of "someday" putting in an old insert he had...
The chimney liner ??? Check the size of the flue tile ??? Also, is the chimney interior or exterior? It is exterior. Well, one out of three...
Biodiesel is more expensive here than the regular heating oil we are currently using and there is the added cost of switching; not something that will help... I'd love to not use the oil furnace ever again. At least cut down the usage to almost nothing. We didn't turn it on from around mid May till about three weeks ago.
I have not discussed this with our landlord (NOT YET) but the idea of renegotiating our rent is a wonderful dream?
Again, Thanks to all of you and I'll keep you all informed when we make progress on this endeavor.
Gwyn
Gwyn, sorry to be the counterpoint here, but I think you are potentially getting in over your head. If $300 for a tank of oil is a deal breaker, then purchasing and installing a woodstove or insert safely + getting fuel for it, will likely put you over the top. If this was your own place and step by step you were building toward the future, then maybe it's worth it. But in a rental? Unless the landlord is willing to pay for the bulk of a safe install of a safe stove, I say pass. It may be time to look for something closer to your budget.
BeGreen makes sense. If just heating the place is a strain on your budget, an safe and effective insert may be a bit out of your price range at this time.
You haven't mentioned how long you intend to stay in this rental. You do mention that you don't want to take the unit with you. Therefore, unless there is reason to believe that you're going to be there for a while, it's just not worth the trouble. The only thing that changes this scenario is your landlord being willing to subsidize the majority of the cost, which would only be fair since he (and subsequent tenants) will be the one's who stand to benefit in the future.
You haven't mentioned how long you intend to stay in this rental. You do mention that you don't want to take the unit with you. Therefore, unless there is reason to believe that you're going to be there for a while, it's just not worth the trouble. The only thing that changes this scenario is your landlord being willing to subsidize the majority of the cost, which would only be fair since he (and subsequent tenants) will be the one's who stand to benefit in the future.
tradergordo
Minister of Fire
I agree with what others have said, doing this on your own dime is probably a recipe for either losing more money than you would have spent on oil (short term) or worst case, burning the place to the ground.
If you can't move, then try some hard negotiating with the landlord - the idea is to get HIM or HER to install the stove or insert as an upgrade to the rental unit and the only way you can afford to continue renting the unit.
If you can't move, then try some hard negotiating with the landlord - the idea is to get HIM or HER to install the stove or insert as an upgrade to the rental unit and the only way you can afford to continue renting the unit.
carpniels
Minister of Fire
Hi Gwyn,
Just like the last few posters, I agree that you seem to have more than just a heating issue. $300 for 100 gallons of oil and that almost did you in? That is not a good financial picture. What happens if your car needs new tires? Or a transmission?
I think you need to get some thick sweaters at the Salvation Army and suffer through the winter with the heat at 55. Turn it down when you leave and up a little when you come home. While you can, sit down, make a budget (money that comes in and goes out) and see what is needed and what is wanted. Scrap all the wanted and start saving the rest. Only one small X-mas gift per person this year. No vacations.
That way, in a year from now, you will have several thousand saved up, and you can pay cash for whatever you need for an insert.
Carpniels
PS. We live that way and it works great. No money problems ever. We don't fight about money ever. I don't work to pay bills. I work because I like it. We have no cable, no cell phones, no trucks or SUVs and no student or car loans. We drive 2 old cars that get 30 and 35 mpg. All the money left at the end of the month goes to savings and if we have a large bill (car repair, taxes, roof) we pay from our savings. It gives me great satisfaction and peace in my heart knowing I am not forced to work.
Just like the last few posters, I agree that you seem to have more than just a heating issue. $300 for 100 gallons of oil and that almost did you in? That is not a good financial picture. What happens if your car needs new tires? Or a transmission?
I think you need to get some thick sweaters at the Salvation Army and suffer through the winter with the heat at 55. Turn it down when you leave and up a little when you come home. While you can, sit down, make a budget (money that comes in and goes out) and see what is needed and what is wanted. Scrap all the wanted and start saving the rest. Only one small X-mas gift per person this year. No vacations.
That way, in a year from now, you will have several thousand saved up, and you can pay cash for whatever you need for an insert.
Carpniels
PS. We live that way and it works great. No money problems ever. We don't fight about money ever. I don't work to pay bills. I work because I like it. We have no cable, no cell phones, no trucks or SUVs and no student or car loans. We drive 2 old cars that get 30 and 35 mpg. All the money left at the end of the month goes to savings and if we have a large bill (car repair, taxes, roof) we pay from our savings. It gives me great satisfaction and peace in my heart knowing I am not forced to work.
webbie
Seasoned Moderator
hah, great advice.
See, come to Hearth.com for some general stove advice, and as our message says on the Hearth Room "but don't be surprised if your answer contains a little more than you were asking for!"
See, come to Hearth.com for some general stove advice, and as our message says on the Hearth Room "but don't be surprised if your answer contains a little more than you were asking for!"
Daniel
New Member
I agree with enord. Buy some good insulation and block off the damper to prevent heat from leaving the room and cold air from entering the room. If you plan on using the fireplace disregard this advice and purchase some glass doors that cut down on some of the draftiness of traditional fireplace openings. Other ways to lower utility costs:
1. make sure the oil furnace has been recently serviced and replace filter often. $100
2. check insulation in attic or at least insulate / seal the attic door seal. $10 - $200 depending
3. if you have an electric cloth dryer put a vent that can blow some warm filtered air into the room. $10
4. make sure storm window are down and latchs locked for a tight seal. $0
5. temporarily seal fireplace damper with insulation $15
6. buy an energy efficient space heater to help heat an area in which you spend much time. $25-$100
All of these improvements are less exspensive then one chimney liner which will cost you at least $400.
Installing an insert can be difficult...taking it out if you move is not worth the trouble to you or your landlord. Stay the course your wood burning days lie ahead and will be much more rewarding when you can afford the right stove, proper install, and enough wood to get you thru winter.
Good Luck
1. make sure the oil furnace has been recently serviced and replace filter often. $100
2. check insulation in attic or at least insulate / seal the attic door seal. $10 - $200 depending
3. if you have an electric cloth dryer put a vent that can blow some warm filtered air into the room. $10
4. make sure storm window are down and latchs locked for a tight seal. $0
5. temporarily seal fireplace damper with insulation $15
6. buy an energy efficient space heater to help heat an area in which you spend much time. $25-$100
All of these improvements are less exspensive then one chimney liner which will cost you at least $400.
Installing an insert can be difficult...taking it out if you move is not worth the trouble to you or your landlord. Stay the course your wood burning days lie ahead and will be much more rewarding when you can afford the right stove, proper install, and enough wood to get you thru winter.
Good Luck
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