englander 25 pah issues

SmokeyTheBear said:

Yes there pellets that top out at 9200 BTU/lb, you likely are not going to find any of them local to you.

There are even pellets that top out close to what coal would but again you aren't likely to find them local to you and those ones aren't approved for use in our stoves.

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Wow, I honestly had no idea. I thought good pellets topped out at around 8,500BTU/lbs. Seems like air would still be the limiting factor - wouldn't a 9,200 BTU pellet require more air for combustion, as it's essentially more fuel? Or is there more energy in the combustion event per same amount of input? I admittedly don't understand the fine details on BTU release from wood fuel but my basic chemistry knowledge says that more output is going to require more input.

X2 on reconfiguring that vent setup. I would be shocked if it runs good for any extended period of time.....but who knows...

acammer said:

Wow, I honestly had no idea. I thought good pellets topped out at around 8,500BTU/lbs. Seems like air would still be the limiting factor - wouldn't a 9,200 BTU pellet require more air for combustion, as it's essentially more fuel? Or is there more energy in the combustion event per same amount of input? I admittedly don't understand the fine details on BTU release from wood fuel but my basic chemistry knowledge says that more output is going to require more input.

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It will require a bit of good oxygen laden air. Test results are test results and in no way reflect actual normal operation results.

Test results are like square footage ratings, 2000 square feet may able to be heated to 70 if the outside temperature is not too low or even if the outside temperature is low, it depends upon the building's envelope.

People first and foremost need to know their heat loss figure for their building and not another building, then you need to be able to be able to match that up with what the stove can produce and have enough extra capacity left over to handle off for cleaning and record low temperature situations.

Smelm0:
It was a bit painful to read this entire thread. I got thru it thinking that:
a. you'd return the stove and I'd be able to buy it from AM/FM at 50 cents on the dollar, or
b. you'd keep the stove for this season and put it on C.L. in April because "Englander stoves suck", and then I'd be able to buy it at 25 cents on the dollar.

Either way I'd get a great little stove for pennies on the dollar. Nothing else could have gotten me to this far in the thread after noticing that long horizontal in the first picture. But since I pass Monroe every weekend on my way to the 84 I'm feeling a bit neighborly, and you really are trying and I respect that!

Right off you were given poor telephone advice. If you have a lazy sooty flame and you are piling partially burnt pellets in the pot you are definitely NOT having an excessive draft problem. Excessive draft would result in the pellets burning too fast, faster than your stove was feeding, and you'd likely find a cold stove.

I've seen a bunch of "professional" quickie installs with a 60" long 3" flex shoved up the tile lined flue. They work well in leaky houses where there is already a normal draft of warm room air escaping up the chimney every minute of the day. It probably would work into your 6" SS liner. Maybe.

However, that long initial horizontal has got to go. It is a trap for fly-ash. Not even those vaulted $5000 Harmans could over come that. You need to place the stove directly in front of the FP opening. Then get an appliance adapter for your 3" flex (same manufacturer preferably) and jam that right into the back of the stove. Run the 3" up all the way to the chimney top inside the existing 6" SS flex, and figure out a way to support the 3" flex with a good top plate. Top that whole thing off with a Cap (again preferably from the same manufacturer).

That will give you an acceptable vent install. Then after you get the thing functioning you can fabricate a simple "damper blockoff plate" to prevent cold and odors from spilling down your flue. Extra credit if this was already done when your 6" SS liner was installed.

Now try to fire up the stove without the OAK. Or figure out a way to run a metal flex dryer vent to a window to temporarily function as an OAK. No way can you get away with a 2" OAK that's longer than 6'. You will need a 3" or bigger OAK. Do you have an old clean out trap in the existing FP? That may have a low resistance path into the basement or crawlspace, and may be a great source as an OAK. Maybe!

......Now for something completely different: about that 45K BTU/hr output heat claim . That's just hilarious. Except if you paid money based on that little yellow tag

My understanding is this stove was introduced to overcome the complaints of too small a hopper and lack of an ash drawer. Done.
It never was meant to be a 60K btu mega burner, and the attached pdf from the Operators Manual (page 5) makes that clear.

I think you can get this stove working! But I'll be watching CL just in case.

You need to understand that a stove company can only use up to a certain amount of what the stove can when pushed actually deliver, the EPA has over the years clamped down on particulate emissions and hence the verbiage about that test being different from the EPA one.

Oh I can see the evl of that vent being trimmed a lot.

You should see what happens if one dumps the exhaust into any masonry chimney of more than about 36 square inches in cross sectional area. Draft being too much isn't the problem it is the weight of the x odd feet of cold air that the exhaust blower can't move very well. You can pile up ash and other nasty stuff (some of it highly flammable) all through the stove.

smelm0:
Thanks for reading my post for what it was. Had a big grin while writing it!

You're right about the gasket leak. The dollar bill test is your friend.

Please don't let the chimney top floppy snorkel situation continue too long. One of those loose bricks holding it may fall onto the roof, puncture the tiles, and now you've got a leak. Plus it's just bad juju.

Yeah i have no clue where the 45k btu thing came from, every bit of paperwork I can find shows 25k. In any case a better idea if comparative shopping with stoves is how many pounds per hour of pellets they can run, not what they claim for btu or house size.

Glad its working better, and perhaps the gasket made the most difference, but I think with your vent setup you will still have elevated cleaning intervals so don't celebrate to quickly!

I think Englanders are good stoves just perhaps a bit more finicky than others, and perhaps just a few minor cuts in quality here or there. Mines still heating away, but I need to get those gaskets replaced with thicker ones still.

SmokeyTheBear said:

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/e3/e33d2e85-03b6-40ef-adb1-cbe6b1e64e87.pdf page 9 your vent is too long for 3" venting.

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I did question the venting way back in post #5. Not sure if my venting is ideal either running through 3" to a 5.5" liner, but I'll focus on the gaskets first.

slvrblkk said:

I want to see if air is bypassing the burnpot and escaping between the pot and the cradle. Easy to tell once the ash piles up around the pot.....should look like a "volcano" all the way around the pot with no clean edges. It should not look like the pic here, it should have ash all the way around the lip.

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Hey thanks slvrblkk, I seem to have this issue. A small section right in the middle under the chute, a little over an inch wide is 'clear'. But what to do about it? There isnt much of a rock or wobble I can detect, I'll have to put it up against a straight edge I'm guessing maybe bowed up in the middle a tad.

As for that gap OhioBurner, is it the receptacle that was the cause or the burn pot. Maybe the warranty can be used. In the mean time maybe a thin gasket around the rim would do the trick, those burn pots are likely heavy enough to form a seal.

I sort of gave up trying to preach from the EVL holy book because most folks don't believe you and after all it has a blower to force the exhaust out the vent.

If one looks at my profile they will see I listed Pellet Stove Cleaner as my occupation and now only preach from their holy books and would you believe it, people still don't believe you.

Pretty soon I'm going to turn in my collar and just go with the flow.

OhioBurner© said:

Yeah i have no clue where the 45k btu thing came from, every bit of paperwork I can find shows 25k. In any case a better idea if comparative shopping with stoves is how many pounds per hour of pellets they can run, not what they claim for btu or house size.

Glad its working better, and perhaps the gasket made the most difference, but I think with your vent setup you will still have elevated cleaning intervals so don't celebrate to quickly!

I think Englanders are good stoves just perhaps a bit more finicky than others, and perhaps just a few minor cuts in quality here or there. Mines still heating away, but I need to get those gaskets replaced with thicker ones still.


I did question the venting way back in post #5. Not sure if my venting is ideal either running through 3" to a 5.5" liner, but I'll focus on the gaskets first.



Hey thanks slvrblkk, I seem to have this issue. A small section right in the middle under the chute, a little over an inch wide is 'clear'. But what to do about it? There isnt much of a rock or wobble I can detect, I'll have to put it up against a straight edge I'm guessing maybe bowed up in the middle a tad.

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Ohio...make sure you don't have a glob of weld or slag under the burnpot preventing it from a good seal. You definitely want to try and correct that because you have air bypassing the pot. You can try taking the wide, flat side of a file and file that side down until you get it sealed.

I cleaned out the stove when I got home this morning. Putting the edge of the pot against a straight edge it was bowed up in the middle ever so slightly (just guessing 1/32-1/16). At the time I didn't think to check the cradle surface, I'll check next time. The same spot in the middle had the clearing of ashes.
Back on to gaskets, since I hope to do it this weekend, can one use a bit thicker layer of silicone in the center of the door where the body of the stove is warped further away? This stove already has pretty thick gasket, and I've never had to replace on before, so any tricks to get a better seal I'm all ears. For the ash pan and hopper lid I was wondering if I could get another identical gasket and place it onto the opposite piece (like so there is a gasket both on the underside of the hopper lid and the top of the stove).

You might be able to straighten that burnpot edge in a vise with some tapping with a hammer.

I'm actually surprised that the door gasket that comes with the stove doesn't seal it but the extra silicone should work as long as you let it dry fully before closing the door.

Have you tried bending up your hopper lip slightly to get it to seal?

smelm0 said:

as to ohio burner and acammer: yes the door gasket failed the dollar test and the unit was bought 10/19/14 which is why I resisted thinking it. must have been defective from the get go( was it made on a fri?) and worsened over a month's use. thought I'd see the light by replacing it. used 5/8 gasket with silicon sealer from lowes($12).

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Well I finally went to Lowes. They had only 1 gasket available 3/8 of some unknown length. Should have known better my lowes and hardware stores rarely carry any kind of wood / pellet stove stuff. Last time I was in a Home Depot and asked about pellets they said that Home Depot doesnt sell those. Anyhow, not a total wast of an hour driving, got to spend $70 on dinner lol.

Hope to find some other place that might have some gaskets and get it done this weekend since I roll into my 72hr 'hell week' next week at work and wont be able to mess with it.

slvrblkk said:

You might be able to straighten that burnpot edge in a vise with some tapping with a hammer.

I'm actually surprised that the door gasket that comes with the stove doesn't seal it but the extra silicone should work as long as you let it dry fully before closing the door.

Have you tried bending up your hopper lip slightly to get it to seal?

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I might try to put the pot in my vise and see if I can get it straight. The cradle was flat best I can tell. BTW the door gasket is the best out of the 3... I had to tug just a little to get the dollar bill through. Its the ash pan and hopper lid that the bill can freely slide. I don't think I can bend the hopper lid like you describe, its not just a folder over edge and I'm sure if I tried I'd end up making it all wavy.

Amazon maybe the cure for your local store issue in the future. Up here if the big boxes don't carry it I still have some smaller places to go to for odd ball stuff. I also use Amazon for things I can't dredge up locally.

If the locals can't provide it, there is always the rest of the world.

smelm0 said:

ohio burne
as smokey suggests, you might save yourself dinner and time, etc by ordering from amazon. you can as well avail yourself of online lowes and hd where many more products are listed than usually found in the actual store where shelf space is determined by sales factors. how many folks are looking for pellet door gasket versus xmas decorations?
be that as it may, I used 5/8" gasket and hi temp silicon sealer from lowes for about $14 in all. made a world of diff. and let the silicon set if possible which takes about 24 hrs.
a seated burn pot is another important issue and as slvrbkk has posted, filing or vising might restore it if the cradle is in effect true. just thinking that a small wad of fiberglass shoved in there might show if air is passing the burn pot or not. its a simple procedure.
smokey: pardon my denseness but what is evl? assume its exhaust vent something or other. can you clarigy please.

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EVL is equivalent vent length, there is a table and frequently that table is also in the installation manuals. It is a simple means of determining the air flow resistance of a vent system that the exhaust blower must overcome for the stove to burn correctly.

90 degree elbows have an EVL of 5, 45 degree elbows 2.5 or 3 depending upon vent maker, one foot of horizontal run has an EVL of 1, one foot of vertical run has an EVL of 0.5 you sum up the EVLs of everything that is going to be in the vent run, if you do not have to compensate for altitude then 3" venting is fine up until you reach an EVL of 15, above an EVL of 15 you really need 4" venting. You should not exceed an EVL of 30 in most pellet stove systems.

I will also speak to the burn pot seating situation as I think that the warranty if in force covers a replacement, you just have to determine what part has the deformity. And while I'm mentioning deformities in connection with burn pots, sustained burning with build ups in the burn pot can cause it to deform over time. Nothing like a forge in the pellet roaster.

SmokeyTheBear said:

EVL is equivalent vent length, there is a table and frequently that table is also in the installation manuals. It is a simple means of determining the air flow resistance of a vent system that the exhaust blower must overcome for the stove to burn correctly.

90 degree elbows have an EVL of 5, 45 degree elbows 2.5 or 3 depending upon vent maker, one foot of horizontal run has an EVL of 1, one foot of vertical run has an EVL of 0.5 you sum up the EVLs of everything that is going to be in the vent run, if you do not have to compensate for altitude then 3" venting is fine up until you reach an EVL of 15, above an EVL of 15 you really need 4" venting. You should not exceed an EVL of 30 in most pellet stove systems.

I will also speak to the burn pot seating situation as I think that the warranty if in force covers a replacement, you just have to determine what part has the deformity. And while I'm mentioning deformities in connection with burn pots, sustained burning with build ups in the burn pot can cause it to deform over time. Nothing like a forge in the pellet roaster.

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Good explanation on EVL Smokey. I just did the math on my setup and am surprised to learn that I'm at/over the EVL limit for 3" vent. I have (2) 90* Elbows for 10' EVL, (1) 45* Elbow for 3' EVL, 36" vertical rise for 1.5' EVL, and 24" horizontal run for 2' EVL for a total of ~16.5' of EVL. Those bends really eat up the flow in a hurry. I'm going to give a little thought to seeing if I can change my setup (corner install - 45 off the stove into a 90 up, then 90 to horizontal and out.) to be just a 90 up and then another 90 out. It might not look as pretty, but 3' of EVL has got to be worth some performance.

While we're talking about burn pots, I was browsing Englanders Website today and I see they have two different burn pots for the PAH, the PAH-BP and the PAH-BPS. The BPS is what i have in mine, it appears to have a 1.25" vertical shroud on the front of the burn pot. You can't see inside them from the pictures so I'm not sure if there are any other differences. Any idea what the reason is for the difference, and what application you might use one or the other for?

acammer said:

Good explanation on EVL Smokey. I just did the math on my setup and am surprised to learn that I'm at/over the EVL limit for 3" vent. I have (2) 90* Elbows for 10' EVL, (1) 45* Elbow for 3' EVL, 36" vertical rise for 1.5' EVL, and 24" horizontal run for 2' EVL for a total of ~16.5' of EVL. Those bends really eat up the flow in a hurry. I'm going to give a little thought to seeing if I can change my setup (corner install - 45 off the stove into a 90 up, then 90 to horizontal and out.) to be just a 90 up and then another 90 out. It might not look as pretty, but 3' of EVL has got to be worth some performance.

While we're talking about burn pots, I was browsing Englanders Website today and I see they have two different burn pots for the PAH, the PAH-BP and the PAH-BPS. The BPS is what i have in mine, it appears to have a 1.25" vertical shroud on the front of the burn pot. You can't see inside them from the pictures so I'm not sure if there are any other differences. Any idea what the reason is for the difference, and what application you might use one or the other for?

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I have no idea as to what the differences are, you could ask ESW.

I also have a corner install but have no 45 degree piece of vent involved at all, the tee handles the turn to the side as well as going up. I also am not locked into any positioning limits that might be imposed by the venting locking system.

I just fall under the generic 15 EVL for 3" vent.

smelm0 said:

ohio burne
as smokey suggests, you might save yourself dinner and time, etc by ordering from amazon. you can as well avail yourself of online lowes and hd where many more products are listed than usually found in the actual store where shelf space is determined by sales factors. how many folks are looking for pellet door gasket versus xmas decorations?
be that as it may, I used 5/8" gasket and hi temp silicon sealer from lowes for about $14 in all. made a world of diff. and let the silicon set if possible which takes about 24 hrs.
a seated burn pot is another important issue and as slvrbkk has posted, filing or vising might restore it if the cradle is in effect true. just thinking that a small wad of fiberglass shoved in there might show if air is passing the burn pot or not. its a simple procedure.
smokey: pardon my denseness but what is evl? assume its exhaust vent something or other. can you clarigy please.

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Yeah the big stores like Lowes are more interested in what makes them the most money it seems, not keeping a full supply of little odds and ends that very few people need. Its practically a department store now. I almost always order online, heck I bought both my pellet stove and 20' chimney liner online and shipped to my door. But this gasket issue had been dragging on and I wanted to get it done then. There happened to be a small county stove shop actually about the same distance (~30 minutes one way) from me, though in the opposite direction of everything else. But was worth the trip they had every size of gasket available as they are full service stove shop. However I was just guessing on the thicknesses. The 5/8" seemed to compress less than 1/2", which didn't seem to be any thicker than what I had from memory, so I went with some really thick stuff. Think it was 7/8 or maybe 1". For the ash pan I decided to try rope gasket instead of the flat stuff that doesn't seem to be very compressible. Went with the smallest they had, think it was 1/4". I didn't get anything for the hopper, will have to do that one later. All their gaskets where white, so it doesn't look as nice with a bunch of white along the edge of the black door.

Burn pot... I did try to put it in vise and it helped a little but this is pretty thick steel that's welded to the vertical side and not very wide so its not like there is going to be much give. I could try placing some of the flat gasket from the ash pan under it, maybe I'll try that next cleaning. I don't think filing is going to do anything since its warped up in the middle, not down. Maybe if I filled in the bow with weld, and ground that flat, but that would take forever and I could probably never get it perfect anyhow.

EVL - hey Smokey, or anyone, what is the factor for 5.5" vertical liner? Just my 3 90º bends put me at 15'. I know with the wood stove the taller you go vertical the more draft you get, not less, but I'm not sure if this is true for pellets (cooler exhaust temp?). Not sure if it means much but on a low heat setting 1 or 2 even the factory LBA setting of 4 seems to too much air as the pot will burn down to nothing sometimes. I actually turned the LBA to 3 after my thorough cleaning and gasket job. I'd turn the feed rate up instead, but I don't need more heat at the moment and this thing is already burning more than its rated to.

OhioBurner© said:

Yeah the big stores like Lowes are more interested in what makes them the most money it seems, not keeping a full supply of little odds and ends that very few people need. Its practically a department store now. I almost always order online, heck I bought both my pellet stove and 20' chimney liner online and shipped to my door. But this gasket issue had been dragging on and I wanted to get it done then. There happened to be a small county stove shop actually about the same distance (~30 minutes one way) from me, though in the opposite direction of everything else. But was worth the trip they had every size of gasket available as they are full service stove shop. However I was just guessing on the thicknesses. The 5/8" seemed to compress less than 1/2", which didn't seem to be any thicker than what I had from memory, so I went with some really thick stuff. Think it was 7/8 or maybe 1". For the ash pan I decided to try rope gasket instead of the flat stuff that doesn't seem to be very compressible. Went with the smallest they had, think it was 1/4". I didn't get anything for the hopper, will have to do that one later. All their gaskets where white, so it doesn't look as nice with a bunch of white along the edge of the black door.

Burn pot... I did try to put it in vise and it helped a little but this is pretty thick steel that's welded to the vertical side and not very wide so its not like there is going to be much give. I could try placing some of the flat gasket from the ash pan under it, maybe I'll try that next cleaning. I don't think filing is going to do anything since its warped up in the middle, not down. Maybe if I filled in the bow with weld, and ground that flat, but that would take forever and I could probably never get it perfect anyhow.

EVL - hey Smokey, or anyone, what is the factor for 5.5" vertical liner? Just my 3 90º bends put me at 15'. I know with the wood stove the taller you go vertical the more draft you get, not less, but I'm not sure if this is true for pellets (cooler exhaust temp?). Not sure if it means much but on a low heat setting 1 or 2 even the factory LBA setting of 4 seems to too much air as the pot will burn down to nothing sometimes. I actually turned the LBA to 3 after my thorough cleaning and gasket job. I'd turn the feed rate up instead, but I don't need more heat at the moment and this thing is already burning more than its rated to.

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Chimneys of that dimension are very iffy because your combustion blower really can't push that much air out reliably and when cold the stove will also have issues getting enough air past the igniter to light reliably. Pellet venting and liners generally max out at 4" with an EVL of 30. But you need to understand that many factors enter into a flue working.

For example Harman has a double paddle impeller that can really move a lot of air, there are some combustion blowers that can move a lot of air, your elevation can have a large impact. It isn't as simple as the easy to add up and compare to a table seems to make it.

Back to back exhaust direction changes can get into the way as can not making certain that the venting is always going upward.

EVL is independent of the vent size, the maximum amount of EVL a particular combustion blower can handle is vent size dependent up until the stacks air weight becomes an issue.

I do not have the tables that deal with your 5.5" to tell you how much you can get away with if any. Normally a decrease in vent size as you get closer to the stove is a larger problem than a decrease going in the other direction due simply a lot of weight trying to get down the vent. Vent sizes should be as uniform from beginning to end as possible.

ESW seems to be pretty good in their manual, and followed this one for my setup. Unfortunately it seems to leave a lot of helpful info out though for venting install. On page 13 it describes mine very closely, venting into existing chimney. 3 90ºs in the picture (except the bottom one of mine is a regular 90 not a clean out tee), goes into the chimney a couple feet above the stove. Manual states cross section max of 6" round, mine is lined 5.5". Gives no limit or even mention of height other than minimum vertical rise on another page. Gives no mention of 3" or 4", except that the entire thing could be comprised of 3" up to 15' length run. Not sure if I'm going to keep this stove permanent or not, so might redo later, but for this year I'm hoping this setup works and my problems where the gasket or burn pot.

Note what is said in the box about following all venting system requirements.

Venting is frequently left to the vent maker to provide guidance subject to the stove maker making it explicitly more restrictive.

All I know is what I have read and seen on here and there sure as h e double been some ding hummers posted on here.

On out of the world venting you end up having issues lighting the stove and burning it, normally it requires a lot more cleaning even if it somewhat works.

It can also lead to issues you don't ever want to have to deal with.

SmokeyTheBear said:

Amazon maybe the cure for your local store issue in the future. Up here if the big boxes don't carry it I still have some smaller places to go to for odd ball stuff. I also use Amazon for things I can't dredge up locally.

If the locals can't provide it, there is always the rest of the world.

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I agree X2.... Amazon or Ebay can be your best tool for stuff not available locally. I tend to check there first then resort to local... yeah, yeah I know but the selection way up here in the north is terrible.

adam6979 said:

I agree X2.... Amazon or Ebay can be your best tool for stuff not available locally. I tend to check there first then resort to local... yeah, yeah I know but the selection way up here in the north is terrible.

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If a place like Caribou doesn't have what you need, you are likely burning the wrong stuff and should switch to something else .

Perhaps potatoes .