Cold family room with high ceilings

Floydian · Jan 2, 2015

As Bob has mentioned, the load calc needs to happen to make the most informed decision.

That said, this is looking like a good option:

Former Farmer said:
What about taking out the propane fireplace and putting in a wood or pellet insert? That is what I did and was one of the best things that I could have done. Wife likes to stand in front of it to warm up when she gets home.

Kind of a shame since you have the gasser+storage but your radiant options are looking really limited and a nicely sized pellet insert will definitely deliver the comfort you're looking for and it should end up costing less than a quality under floor retrofit and and not too much more than a large panel radiator with all plumbing, controls etc. that might not take a big enough bite out of your LR heat load.

Noah

heatingcostssuck · Jan 2, 2015

Just throwing another option out there, trying to fit within your layout, would be to ditch the stand which the television is on.
Custom build yourself a platform that has some sort of "in-wall" radiant heat in there and then put the TV on top of that.

You wouldn't lose floor space, you could put a larger unit in there and I'm sure you could find something attractive.

Pologuy9906 · Jan 3, 2015

I have the same problem. My room is very similar but slightly bigger.I used the slant fin heat loss calc app. It says 14,000 btu @180. Seriously thinking about changing to panel rads as well. I'm currently researching what's the best bang for my buck. I have 36 feet of standard baseboard fins. I was thinking about adding foot for foot. Seems like overkill though. That would make it 32,700 btus.

heaterman · Jan 3, 2015

Agree 100% with Hot Rod. There is no way you'll ever get the floor to heat that space for exactly the reasons he gave.

Adding some auxiliary heat capacity of some kind is the viable option.

Pologuy9906 · Jan 3, 2015

http://www.hydronicalternatives.com/Products/Radiators.aspx

This is the company I'm looking at. I love the trench look to go with the rads. So they're called trench heaters?

hartkem · Jan 3, 2015

Maybe I could get creative and remove the doors from this cabinet and recess some radiators into it? Just back far enough to keep the fronts flush with the cabinet. Maybe line the recess with metal to help reflect the heat out. It would be easy to get pex into it and I was thinking of maybe routing my return water from my WAHX through the radiator before return back to storage. It would of course cycling the radiator on and off. The door opening is 43"x 28". I know I still need to do a heat loss call.

Pologuy9906 · Jan 3, 2015

The trench style appears to give the flexibility of extra btus. I have 900 gallons of storage. I want to squeeze every usable btu out of the unit and into my home as possible.

Trying to find the specs on the trench designs. I hope there are more manufacturers.

heatingcostssuck · Jan 3, 2015

I don't think there's anything you can't do when it comes to being creative with vertical spaces that have a fair amount of depth.

Heck, I look at those rectangles on your hearth's front and think kick space heater.

Did you look at the trench design, flush with your floor in front of the doors + windows?
The problem with trench I guess is, dirt falls down... it's going to collect *somewhere*.

Then again, I'm a newb with Hydronics

hartkem · Jan 3, 2015

heatingcostssuck said:
I don't think there's anything you can't do when it comes to being creative with vertical spaces that have a fair amount of depth.

Heck, I look at those rectangles on your hearth's front and think kick space heater.

Did you look at the trench design, flush with your floor in front of the doors + windows?
The problem with trench I guess is, dirt falls down... it's going to collect *somewhere*.

Then again, I'm a newb with Hydronics

I did look at the trench style. My forced air ducts are below the windows and I don't think I want the trench in front of my doors. I also can't get pex to that area without removing drwall. I did some research on a panel rad that would fit in the cabinet with the lower doors removed. I could fit a panel in there that puts out 8000 btu at 180 degree water. I probably would not see that high of water temp and being recessed back in the cabinet I would probably be lucky to get 5000 out of it. Not sure how much difference that would make in the comfort of the room. The panel would face my couch so the radient heat would probably feel nice.

Bob Rohr · Jan 3, 2015

hartkem said:
I did look at the trench style. My forced air ducts are below the windows and I don't think I want the trench in front of my doors. I also can't get pex to that area without removing drwall. I did some research on a panel rad that would fit in the cabinet with the lower doors removed. I could fit a panel in there that puts out 8000 btu at 180 degree water. I probably would not see that high of water temp and being recessed back in the cabinet I would probably be lucky to get 5000 out of it. Not sure how much difference that would make in the comfort of the room. The panel would face my couch so the radient heat would probably feel nice.

The output for most panel rads includes some convection. You'll need a way for cool air to enter the bottom and the warmed air out the top.

Check into kickspace heaters, very easy to install and with a small blower they will kick out a lot more than a panel rad. Here is the output sheet.

Most kickspace heaters have optional wall cabinets of floor mount boxes.

I've had good luck with this brand.

https://www.emersonswan.com/ckfinder/userfiles/files/pop6.pdf

hartkem · Jan 3, 2015

Bob Rohr said:
The output for most panel rads includes some convection. You'll need a way for cool air to enter the bottom and the warmed air out the top.

Check into kickspace heaters, very easy to install and with a small blower they will kick out a lot more than a panel rad. Here is the output sheet.

Most kickspace heaters have optional wall cabinets of floor mount boxes.

I've had good luck with this brand.

https://www.emersonswan.com/ckfinder/userfiles/files/pop6.pdf

Looked into the kicks pace heaters and I could fit two of them in my fireplace hearth like someone previously mentioned. I would like to plumb them into my return water from my WAHX. I'm using a taco 008 pump with 1 inch copper to my WAHX so I should have plenty of pump to hook them in a series/ parallel arrangement. This would lower my return water temp which I'm told is a good thing.

Bob Rohr · Jan 3, 2015

hartkem said:
View attachment 149377

Looked into the kicks pace heaters and I could fit two of them in my fireplace hearth like someone previously mentioned. I would like to plumb them into my return water from my WAHX. I'm using a taco 008 pump with 1 inch copper to my WAHX so I should have plenty of pump to hook them in a series/ parallel arrangement. This would lower my return water temp which I'm told is a good thing.View attachment 149377

You will need to pipe them with a bypass, as they generally have 1/2 copper in them. Or treat them as a separate zone that could run without the WAHX.

If you have access from below you can install them through the opening you cut. I've used the 1/2 rubber Onix from Watts Radiant to give you a flexible connection to install or remove. There used to be a kit available to provide all the pieces, check with Emerson Swan as they are the reps for Smith and Watts Radiant and actually designed the quick install, rubber hose kit, years ago.

Also once installed they need to have the coil cleaned from time to time, as they inhale all sorts of stuff on the floor. Especially if you have pets

The flexible connectors allow you to pull them out enough to vacuum the fins.

Another tip, they come with a thermal snap switch to turn the fan on once the HX tube gets hot. There are optional lower temperature versions if you are supplying it with temperature below 180F. I replaced the factory switch with an adjustable version so you could dial it in to the "sweet spot" of your systems fluid temperature.

Here is a Myson brand I used as a portable heater, note the clip on snap temperature switch lying on top.

heaterman · Jan 3, 2015

I see register openings........
Do you heat with forced air?

We solved one guys problem area by installing a couple small hot water coils in the 6" heat runs going to that particular room.
We got a ordered a couple small 8"x8" coils and made adapters to go from the 6" round to the "boxes" we put the hot water coils in.
The air temp coming from all the other registers in the system was about 110* but the two runs with the coils were over 140*. Worked pretty slick and solved his problem.

heatingcostssuck · Jan 4, 2015

http://www.mysoncomfort.com/Content/Media/PDF/WhispaIII Kickspace Manual.pdf

Page 8 gives an example of what Myson Whispa 3 models would give you at what settings. You don't mention what temperature you think the water
would run at.

Disclaimer: I don't endorse any vendor/model, or even am qualified to be typing any suggestions. I'm learning via research, so I am, most probably, wrong.

Pologuy9906 · Jan 4, 2015

Tanks get up to 160ish. Only lit 3-4 times so far.

hartkem · Jan 4, 2015

Well I am happy to report that I made some progress today. I was able to successfully add a forced air register in the room. I cut the bottom of the cabinet out to investigate and then drilled a hole through the subfloor to see where it came out in the basement. To my surprise it was very close to an open spot on the main truck line. I got up a ladder to check out the main duct and found a sheet metal patch on the top that was foil taped. Removing the patch revealed a hole that was a perfect fit for a 6" take off. I cut a whole in the subfloor for the register boot and it matched up perfectly to the take off. Sealed everything up with foil tape and built a box in the toe kick area from rigid foam to direct the air out the front of the toe kick of the cabinet. The pictures below will help explain what I was able to do.

hartkem · Jan 4, 2015

I don't expect this to completely solve the problem but it can't hurt. The foil tape that was holding the patch down was partially pulled loose so I was losing heat there. A decent flow of air is coming out the new duct since it is so close to the furnace and I don't notice much drop in flow from the other ducts on that branch. The other ducts feed much warmer areas of the house anyway so hopefully this will help balance things out. Cost less than 15 bucks too!!

Fred61 · Jan 4, 2015

Anything will help. All you need to do is bring the room temperature up above normal comfort temperature to counter the conductive and convective effect of the glass on the body. Are we looking at two or at three outside walls in that room?

hartkem · Jan 4, 2015

Fred61 said:
Anything will help. All you need to do is bring the room temperature up above normal comfort temperature to counter the conductive and convective effect of the glass on the body. Are we looking at two or at three outside walls in that room?

The north wall is and the east and west walls are only half exposed to the outside. I am surprised at the amount of heat coming out of the six inch duct. So far so good. I'm currently comparing the cold room to the kitchen with a thermometer to see the temp difference. Cold room usually was about 68 when the kitchen was 70. I just finished everything and will report back with results.

heatingcostssuck · Jan 6, 2015

hartkem said:
The north wall is and the east and west walls are only half exposed to the outside. I am surprised at the amount of heat coming out of the six inch duct. So far so good. I'm currently comparing the cold room to the kitchen with a thermometer to see the temp difference. Cold room usually was about 68 when the kitchen was 70. I just finished everything and will report back with results.

How's it going?

ihookem · Jan 6, 2015

I stapled up 2 1/2" pex lines per joist in the basement , insulated it with fiberglass r13. My family rm is the most comfortable room I ever sat in. Even people that come over say it is a comfortable house and seems really relaxing. Feet are always toasty warm. I can even feel the heat up to my ankles sometimes. I fall asleep right on the floor on the coldest days . Ya just have to tear out the drywall in the basement. Easy for me to say though,, I do drywall. You can put up accustical ceilings. There are tons of really cool looking 2x2 tiles these days. Not that I care, but I wouldn't want my family rm cold at all. Also, you will notice you will be more comfortable at a lower room temp than when using forced air. I have half the house on staple radiant. Even at -14 yesterday morning and -6 today the family rm and kitchen was fairly comfortable where there was radiant. No air flow feel. I still have not used my furnace to subsidise my radiant, even though the boiler is hooked to my NG furnace , even at -14. Also, If I lay on the floor and cover up with a blanket , it gets totally toasty under the blanket. Tell the wife that and you will be tearing out drywalll Snicker.

hartkem · Jan 6, 2015

heatingcostssuck said:
How's it going?

Well it's been several days since I added the duct. The duct is really putting out the heat but the room is only a little more comfortable. Essentially all I did was even out the temp more. Before the kitchen was say 72 and the living room would be 69 or 70. Now both rooms are 70. Basically took some heat from the warmer rooms and redirected to cooler room. Now don't get me wrong this is good thing but it still could feel warmer. It does make sense though if you think about the location of the thermostat. It is located in the dining room which has no separation from the living room. By adding the additional duct to the living room the t-stat just reaches set point a little sooner preventing the other rooms in the house from being heated above set point. I do think everything is balanced better now and I guess the solution is to just turn up the t-stat which I haven't done. Part of the problem is the kitchen floor is much warmer than the living room floor. The kitchen floor is above the utility room where my thermal storage is which stays toasty. Walking on the cooler living room floor from the warm floor is a constant reminder. I Looked at the drywall in the basement today and the thought of removing it makes me cringe. Lots of square footage and bulkheads make it seem overwhelming.

Bob Rohr · Jan 7, 2015

hartkem said:
Well it's been several days since I added the duct. The duct is really putting out the heat but the room is only a little more comfortable. Essentially all I did was even out the temp more. Before the kitchen was say 72 and the living room would be 69 or 70. Now both rooms are 70. Basically took some heat from the warmer rooms and redirected to cooler room. Now don't get me wrong this is good thing but it still could feel warmer. It does make sense though if you think about the location of the thermostat. It is located in the dining room which has no separation from the living room. By adding the additional duct to the living room the t-stat just reaches set point a little sooner preventing the other rooms in the house from being heated above set point. I do think everything is balanced better now and I guess the solution is to just turn up the t-stat which I haven't done. Part of the problem is the kitchen floor is much warmer than the living room floor. The kitchen floor is above the utility room where my thermal storage is which stays toasty. Walking on the cooler living room floor from the warm floor is a constant reminder. I Looked at the drywall in the basement today and the thought of removing it makes me cringe. Lots of square footage and bulkheads make it seem overwhelming.

Correct, depending how, or if, the original duct system was sized or installed, or if a load calc was done, adding another run doesn't often add more heat into the home it just robs Peter to pay Paul.

Possibly balancing the system if the outlets have adjustable dampers or vent covers could move additional CFM into that room. Try closing down some bedroom vents or others to push more into the cold rooms.

Cold family room with high ceilings

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