Stove Shops GOOD THE BAD THE UGLY

Blackjack Dan · Jan 21, 2015

After trying to buy a new stove for my home and realizing all the shops I went to new less than me, I've been researching the matter and thinking about putting in a stove shop.

I would like to hear what factors /elements you think make a good stove shop?

Is the best stove shops standalone? In our area it's popular to have pool and hearth shops and there is always the hardware and lumber stores. To me it seems the pool and hearth shops tend to see you coming, by that I mean they usually only handle hi-end products and charge a premium full retail for their items and the ones I went to were the least proficient in answering my questions!

Naturally we would have to be in a position to have our training and things in place to offer expert advice, professional installation with a good product offering.

I currently own a business/retail location with good traffic flow and have a 600 square-foot area that could be added for a stove and hearth showroom? Winter is our off-season so I'm thinking this might be a good match? My initial thoughts are to focus on woodstoves with low to high end products in several brands and have very limited offerings with pellet and inserts?

The location is the Midsouth we have a TSC in our town the closest stove shop is 25 miles from the proposed location. I already have some decent purchasing networks I just bought a USSTCO American Harvest 6041 for $480 off regular dealer price as well as discussing direct accounts with stove distributors.

Love to hear your comments and observations?

Sent from my iPad

MishMouse · Jan 21, 2015

A stove shop where the person selling the stove is very knowledgably about the stove, who knows the pros and the cons and is not afraid to tell the customer of them.
A stove shop where honestly is the policy, even if it effects the bottom line.
A stove shop where support is 100% before and after the sale.

The one I go to "The Heat Source" in Park Rapids, MN has all of thee above and was the reason why I went to them instead of a source that sold a similar model for a little cheaper.

About a week after the install the owner called me to see how things were going and offered advice on how I can get better results.
He even checked back a month later.
When I call to get support he is very helpful with my needs and solves any issues.
I even look at the owner as more of a friend then a salesperson due to the fact on how he communicates.

That is the key, person service and 100% customer satisfaction.

begreen · Jan 21, 2015

It's hard to beat a good dealer when you need help and good customer service. I've bought from both large, local chain stove and spa shops and from smaller local dealers. The attention to detail was significantly better with the smaller shops, though the pricing was sometimes better with the bigger shops. Without a doubt a good local, small shop with a reputation for good service will get my order, even if it costs a bit more. I like keeping my money local in our community, or at least in our state. And I like talking to someone that actually knows and has run the stove instead of a salesperson.

BrotherBart · Jan 21, 2015

Check with your business liability insurance carrier. When I was going to start servicing pellet stoves mine said "What? You are going to install and work on things that can burn people's house down?".

Osagebndr · Jan 21, 2015

My dealer was a little too stubborn , although helpful at the same . Listen to customer needs and give good advice both on stove/ insert and wood burning would be helpful from a dealer IMHO

Fsappo · Jan 21, 2015

Blackjack Dan said:
and charge a premium full retail for their items and the ones I went to were the least proficient in answering my questions!

For one, any business plan you develop should include selling at retail for appliances. Margins from hearth appliance manufacturers run from 30-45% out of the gate...they can get better as you build your volume.

Now, when some buyers find out you just made $800 on a $2000 they will think that is way too much. But you are a business owner. Your going to pay insurance, lights, rent, training, tools, truck maintenance, fuel, as well as lose on 95% of your warranty call backs. So you stick to your guns. Sell a high end product, when high end means good quality and dealer support. Don't try to go head to head with the big box stores. More Englanders, UUSC stoves sold, more service work for you. Again, stick to your rates for service. We charge $89 per hour. Some folks balk, some folks call the handy man and some folks call back for us to fix the handy work. If you offer top notch service, the service end of your business will slowly grow. You just need to stand out, wear your booties, clean things twice, look and act like a gentleman upon arrival.

Once you develop that type of reputation, you can offer a great product, get your asking price and do what business owners are supposed to do. Make a profit.

An off season product like A/C service, pools, spas, garden, bbqs, is a great way to fill in the summer months.

Typing between phone calls, so I may not appear lucid and may not be

Ram 1500 with an axe... · Jan 21, 2015

You could always outsource the installs, make little profit and not be responsible....but you need to carry a boatload of inventory, not sure how that works. When I walk into a stove shop, I want to see a boat load of stoves and many working.....

Blackjack Dan · Jan 21, 2015

Fsappo said:
For one, any business plan you develop should include selling at retail for appliances. Margins from hearth appliance manufacturers run from 30-45% out of the gate...they can get better as you build your volume.

Now, when some buyers find out you just made $800 on a $2000 they will think that is way too much. But you are a business owner. Your going to pay insurance, lights, rent, training, tools, truck maintenance, fuel, as well as lose on 95% of your warranty call backs. So you stick to your guns. Sell a high end product, when high end means good quality and dealer support. Don't try to go head to head with the big box stores. More Englanders, UUSC stoves sold, more service work for you. Again, stick to your rates for service. We charge $89 per hour. Some folks balk, some folks call the handy man and some folks call back for us to fix the handy work. If you offer top notch service, the service end of your business will slowly grow. You just need to stand out, wear your booties, clean things twice, look and act like a gentleman upon arrival.

Once you develop that type of reputation, you can offer a great product, get your asking price and do what business owners are supposed to do. Make a profit.

An off season product like A/C service, pools, spas, garden, bbqs, is a great way to fill in the summer months.

Typing between phone calls, so I may not appear lucid and may not be

I have no problem paying full retail for premium service and premium products but to pay more and get less is what I've been finding in some of the local shops. However in our neck of the woods you will lose customers if you don't leave some wiggle room to negotiate on any type of sale.

I went to one stove shop that didn't want to quote me a price until he did a on site assessment that I had to pay for! And would not even offer a cash & carry price.

The only off-season we have is basically winter we are hammered spring, summer and fall we have about four counter folks that are sometimes twiddling their thumbs in the winter.

I agree in having good inventories, I always hate it when you go to buy something and everybody says well I can order that. I can have that in by next week? I know you can't stock everything but the lines you're going to carry and have parts for I believe in having them on the ground and ready to go. Also wondering how many different brands to offer?

begreen · Jan 21, 2015

MishMouse · Jan 21, 2015

Limit the bands to the ones where you have the most knowledge so that you can specialize in that brand.
Offering many brands will not allow you to become an expert and you will be unable to offer the support that is needed to go from a dime a dozen stove shop to a shop where people will go out of there way to get to.

gyrfalcon · Jan 21, 2015

Blackjack Dan said:
I have no problem paying full retail for premium service and premium products but to pay more and get less is what I've been finding in some of the local shops.

I had one that didn't want to quote a price until he did a on site assessment that I had to pay for! And would not even offer a cashing carry price.

The only off-season we have is basically winter we are hammered spring, summer and fall we have about four counter folks that are sometimes twiddling their thumbs in the winter.

I agree having good inventories I always hate it when you go to buy something and everybody says well I can order that. I can have that in by next week? I know you can't stock everything but the lines you're going to carry and have parts for I believe in having them on the ground and ready to go. Also wondering how many different brands to offer?

My biggest gripe with stove shops is that they're mostly single-brand around here, except for one huge shop with two locations that carries basically everything. The second is the only place around here that carries Hearthstone, so that's where I bought mine.

The repair people are very knowledgeable, but man, the salesmen were not. How could they possibly be with so many makers and models? So I'd suggest picking two or three good lines only and being intimately familiar with the requirements and operations of those, rather than knowing a tiny bit about each of 100 different stoves.

And here's a suggestion. Make a deal with a local firewood supplier, maybe a kiln-dried one if you have them up there, so you can give each stove buyer a coupon for a small amount, a few stove loads or a quarter cord. Most new stove buyers have no clue what "seasoned" wood means for EPA stoves, even if you tell them. Give them a chance to burn some, and you won't be getting constant calls about the stove "not working" and you'll help to boost the demand for dry wood suppliers in your area.

Fsappo · Jan 21, 2015

MishMouse said:
Limit the bands to the ones where you have the most knowledge so that you can specialize in that brand.
Offering many brands will not allow you to become an expert and you will be unable to offer the support that is needed to go from a dime a dozen stove shop to a shop where people will go out of there way to get to.

Also, before picking a brand, look closely at their online sales policy, dealership requirements, protected territories, etc. Try to bring something new to your neighborhood new and not available on amazon at your cost +5% and no sales tax. Then use well groomed, knowledgeable and honest sales people to help build the brand.

Ram 1500 with an axe... · Jan 21, 2015

gyrfalcon said:
My biggest gripe with stove shops is that they're mostly single-brand around here, except for one huge shop with two locations that carries basically everything. The second is the only place around here that carries Hearthstone, so that's where I bought mine.

The repair people are very knowledgeable, but man, the salesmen were not. How could they possibly be with so many makers and models? So I'd suggest picking two or three good lines only and being intimately familiar with the requirements and operations of those, rather than knowing a tiny bit about each of 100 different stoves.

And here's a suggestion. Make a deal with a local firewood supplier, maybe a kiln-dried one if you have them up there, so you can give each stove buyer a coupon for a small amount, a few stove loads or a quarter cord. Most new stove buyers have no clue what "seasoned" wood means for EPA stoves, even if you tell them. Give them a chance to burn some, and you won't be getting constant calls about the stove "not working" and you'll help to boost the demand for dry wood suppliers in your area.

Nice ideas.....

jatoxico · Jan 21, 2015

Outsourcing the installs sounds like a step away from quality. It doesn't have to be but from a customer standpoint I hate to hear that since I know the retailer cannot control who is on site the day the work is being done. And I don't want to be in the middle of a finger pointing dispute between the product and the install if things don't go right. If the install is not to your standards the customer is still going to be calling your shop.

gyrfalcon · Jan 21, 2015

Ram 1500 with an axe... said:
Nice ideas.....

Thank you. In my opinion, EPA stoves, never mind the even greater requirements coming down the pike, are never going to come into their own, or compete with pellet stoves, until the availability of dry wood greatly increases. Most people aren't going to/can't store several years' worth of green to dry in their back yards. I think kiln-drying operations are the only practical solution, and if I had my druthers, I'd like to see some tax breaks or other government incentives for start-ups.

Even old smoke dragon users are astonished and thrilled when they have a chance to burn dry wood. I'd rather see EPA focus on the availability of dry wood to reduce the very real pollution problems in some areas from wood-burning than in making the requirements for the few people who buy new stoves even tighter.

jatoxico · Jan 21, 2015

gyrfalcon said:
And here's a suggestion. Make a deal with a local firewood supplier, maybe a kiln-dried one if you have them up there, so you can give each stove buyer a coupon for a small amount, a few stove loads or a quarter cord. Most new stove buyers have no clue what "seasoned" wood means for EPA stoves, even if you tell them. Give them a chance to burn some, and you won't be getting constant calls about the stove "not working" and you'll help to boost the demand for dry wood suppliers in your area.

That is a very good idea.

Blackjack Dan · Jan 21, 2015

Fsappo said:
For one, any business plan you develop should include selling at retail for appliances. Margins from hearth appliance manufacturers run from 30-45% out of the gate...they can get better as you build your volume.

Now, when some buyers find out you just made $800 on a $2000 they will think that is way too much. But you are a business owner. Your going to pay insurance, lights, rent, training, tools, truck maintenance, fuel, as well as lose on 95% of your warranty call backs. So you stick to your guns. Sell a high end product, when high end means good quality and dealer support. Don't try to go head to head with the big box stores. More Englanders, UUSC stoves sold, more service work for you. Again, stick to your rates for service. We charge $89 per hour. Some folks balk, some folks call the handy man and some folks call back for us to fix the handy work. If you offer top notch service, the service end of your business will slowly grow. You just need to stand out, wear your booties, clean things twice, look and act like a gentleman upon arrival.

Once you develop that type of reputation, you can offer a great product, get your asking price and do what business owners are supposed to do. Make a profit.

An off season product like A/C service, pools, spas, garden, bbqs, is a great way to fill in the summer months.

Typing between phone calls, so I may not appear lucid and may not be

Thanks for all the comments.

So how do you guys view stores featuring outdoor power Equipment and having a stove shop?

Fsappo i'm interested in your comment about losing 95% on warranty call backs? Do the stove manufacturers pay off a book rate? Or for each item case by case? That's one of the things we do is outdoor power Equipment we are in our fourth year, we compete head-to-head with the big box stores we love their warranty work. We try to have our technicians/shop having its own profit center and have been successful, and of course when the big box store sends us a customer for warranty it's free advertising. And yes a book repair rate is never realistic but we're still in the green.

Fsappo · Jan 21, 2015

Let me give some examples. Dollar amounts may not be spot on, but you'll get the idea:
Some assumptions:
Customer lives 10 miles from you
You have a tech you pay $17 per hour x 1.3 to include payroll tax, insurance, etc for $22 per hour
Service truck is a box van
Your hourly rate to customers is $70 per hour

Customer has a blown widget on a 6 month old stove. Time in house to fix widget 45 minutes

Regency makes the Widget and pays $30 per warranty call
Hearthstone makes the Widget, Pays $45 per call
Enerzone makes the widget and pays your hourly rate based on time spent.
Empire Home Comfort pays the same, your hourly rate.

Figure your cost for the call:
20 miles round trip at $1.10 per mile (includes fuel, maintenance, insurance, registratiom, etc) $22
.75 hours in home = 1 hour jobsite time, just does. $22
Round trip travel of .5 hours $11
Forget the intangibles of processing the paperwork, ordering repair parts, etc.

You can figure that trip costs your business $55

I don't know the reimbursement of all manufacturers off the top of my head, but it bears looking into before taking on a product line. 10 years from now when you have 500 stoves in the field, it will add up. Some manufactures have a book rate per repair, some flat rate per call, some hourly at retail, some hourly at a reduced rate.

With Enerzone or Empire, you would get reimbursed $52.50
Regency, $30, etc etc.

Take into account changes in mileage or time spent on the repair. Also that in a lot of cases an initial call needs to be made to diagnose the issue.

All these items eat away at the bottom figure.

Cutting prices and outsourcing will make you look like a hack and guess who still gets the call when someones igniter goes bad on a Sunday in February?

Make your money, stick to your prices. You will attract the right kind of customers over time and won't cringe when you spend 1/2 day 50 miles away working on a Hearthstone pellet stove for $40.

A customer on the other side of the phone can tell if you are "Oh shitting" when they report an issue or if you are viewing it as an assumed expense up front and an opportunity to dazzle them with your after the sale service.

gyrfalcon · Jan 21, 2015

Blackjack Dan said:
So how do you guys view stores featuring outdoor power Equipment and having a stove shop?

What's your potential and existing customer base? You gotta start with that on almost every decision you make. If the stove shop and the outdoor stuff can be completely separated so it isn't necessarily obvious it's even the same store, it's not as much of an issue and you can do whatever you want.

But otherwise, you don't want potential customers for either side of the operation feeling like they've stepped into an alien world. For instance, if you're in the suburbs of some metro area, you don't want an overload of tractors and big chainsaws and splitters and the like next to the front door.

Rural people are pretty used to odd combinations and shop where they can get to, but in that case, you want to be careful the stove shop part doesn't have a super-elegant upscale suburban feel to it-- quiet carpeting, soft music, low lighting, living room feel in the showroom.

The place I bought my stove was like that, but it's on the outskirts of the state's only real city, and I was the only customer in there in old jeans, frayed sweatshirt, workboots and a ballcap. Mine was certainly the only pickup in the parking lot. Most of the rest of shoppers looked pretty affluent, if not perfumed.

Also, what other similar stores are in the area, both for power equipment and for stoves? In other words, what's your competition for both? What geographical area do you hope to be drawing customers from? Where will you advertise? I don't think counting solely on outdoor equipment customers to spread word of mouth on modern stoves will work. Figure out who your customer base is and where they are, and most of the rest will flow from that.

firefighterjake · Jan 21, 2015

Blackjack Dan said:
Thanks for all the comments.

So how do you guys view stores featuring outdoor power Equipment and having a stove shop?
. . ..

Not sure how it is in Colorado . . . but around here you see all kinds of mixes . . . seems to me it might work.

I know one well known stove shop that also sells canoes and kayaks . . . in the bigger "cities" we tend to see more strictly stove shops . . . or a shop that sells some patio furniture or something like that on the side . . . but other places often have a bit of a mix.

bholler · Jan 21, 2015

I really dont care what else they sell as long as they know their product and do good installs either themselves or outsourced. Many here do horrible installs and will hook a stove to any chimney that is in the house then we have to deal with the mess afterwards. And hardly any ever insulate liners. I also agree with others that you should not deal with the low end stuff to much it is hard to compete with the box stoves for price and you inevitably will have more warantee work which does not pay well. The poor service from most of the local stove shops is why we started selling stoves we got tired of sending our customers to shops that we knew were not going to do good installs.

Blackjack Dan · Jan 21, 2015

gyrfalcon said:
What's your potential and existing customer base? You gotta start with that on almost every decision you make. If the stove shop and the outdoor stuff can be completely separated so it isn't necessarily obvious it's even the same store, it's not as much of an issue and you can do whatever you want.

But otherwise, you don't want potential customers for either side of the operation feeling like they've stepped into an alien world. For instance, if you're in the suburbs of some metro area, you don't want an overload of tractors and big chainsaws and splitters and the like next to the front door.

Rural people are pretty used to odd combinations and shop where they can get to, but in that case, you want to be careful the stove shop part doesn't have a super-elegant upscale suburban feel to it-- quiet carpeting, soft music, low lighting, living room feel in the showroom.

The place I bought my stove was like that, but it's on the outskirts of the state's only real city, and I was the only customer in there in old jeans, frayed sweatshirt, workboots and a ballcap. Mine was certainly the only pickup in the parking lot. Most of the rest of shoppers looked pretty affluent, if not perfumed.

Also, what other similar stores are in the area, both for power equipment and for stoves? In other words, what's your competition for both? What geographical area do you hope to be drawing customers from? Where will you advertise? I don't think counting solely on outdoor equipment customers to spread word of mouth on modern stoves will work. Figure out who your customer base is and where they are, and most of the rest will flow from that.

This March will end our fourth year in outdoor power equipment sales. The first year we did $20,00 2nd year we did $70,000 3rd year we did $200,000 this year we did $700,000 and it's not over. Most of that was in zero turn mowers and hand-held trimmers, saws, log splitters, generators etc. pretty much in that order.

We have never tried to be the cheapest guy out there just one of the guys that handle some of the best products and good Service. However we're not afraid of selling a good Englander stove for example, yes our margins are going to be less but we sell $199 chainsaws and have to provide warranty on those items. Just looking for a good mix for off-season. Btw the stove shop would not be located where my summer home in Colorado is, it would be 800 miles SE.

So what do you think of only having 600 SF showroom?

begreen · Jan 21, 2015

Blackjack Dan said:
Btw the stove shop would not be located where my summer home in Colorado is, it would be 800 miles SE.

That's a bit of a commute. Do you fly to work?

bholler · Jan 21, 2015

Blackjack Dan said:
we sell $199 chainsaws and have to provide warranty on those items.

Yes but like you said before you make money on those warantee repairs stoves are very different i have never made a dime on a stove warantee repair.

Blackjack Dan · Jan 21, 2015

begreen said:
That's a bit of a commute. Do you fly to work?

No and I don't make any money on my grammar, spelling or punctuation either! We get to spent about 10 to 12 weeks a year out there. There's a stove shop in Buena Vista Colorado and also Salida Colorado 15 miles in either direction. We were out there over the holidays here's a pic from my front yard and the backyard..

Stove Shops GOOD THE BAD THE UGLY

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