Educate me-Replacement Stove

snrek · Jan 30, 2015

I currently have a VC Intrepid. It is used to heat about 1000 sq. ft. most of the time and I sometimes open doors to heat more. The stove has to be completely cleaned out and taken apart 2-3 times per year to clean the cat, which has to be replaced at over $100 after 3-5 years, also the refractory material is very fragile and needs to be replaced at about $200-$300. Now it needs a complete tear-down to re-gasket the whole stove. When it was new it probably met it's high efficiency rating but that didn't last too long as things soon began to deteriorate. It has to be reloaded about every 2 hours and the cat can only be re-engaged about 15 minutes later. Needless to say, it won't burn through the night and I awake to a cold house. The firebox is small and won't accept standard length logs. It is really hard to operate, the temperature often goes way down after engaging the cat. The one feature that I really like though is the top load feature.

For all these reasons I THINK I want a steel, non-cat, top loader that preferably doesn't use downdraft technology. I know, I have painted myself in a really small corner.

This is a large expenditure for me and I'll have to live with this stove a long time.

P.S.-How much maintenance does a non-cat require? I've heard the air tube(s) have to be replaced occasionally. My goal is to simplify life and reduce expense. Are there cats that work better and don't require a tear-down to clean? Educate me!

Grisu · Jan 30, 2015

Non-downdraft top-loaders are rare as the secondary burn tubes will be in the way. You could take a look at the Jotul F50 Rangeley but that could be too much of a stove for your climate. What are your usual outside temps in the winter? How much of your home do you want to heat with a stove? A cat stove may be a better option if you are looking for long, steady low heat output. A Woodstock Keystone or Fireview maybe or a stove from the BlazeKing 20 series. BK warrants their cats for 10 years and they last that long if treated properly. That means you need to burn dry firewood only and check your door gasket for leaks regularly.

Tell us more about your heating needs and budget and we can see which stoves would be a good fit.

begreen · Jan 30, 2015

I would abandon the top-loader need to open up more opportunities. How is the flue connected? Do you need a rear-vent stove or would a top-vent work?

Note: it is rare to have to replace tubes on the stove.

Wood Duck · Jan 30, 2015

Why the top loader? Most stoves load from the front and it works fine. Also, you live in Florida so you probably want low, clean burns a lot of the season, and for that cat stoves are better. It sounds like your cat stove was harder to maintain than many others I read about on this list.

However, if you don't want a cat stove, how about a relatively simple steel stove like an Englander 13 or Lopi. My Lopi 1250 won't quite burn all night, but I will have coals after six hours so I can reload and have a fire in 15 minutes. You could also get a larger version of either stove that will burn longer, but you probably don't need the larger heat output in Florida. Both of these stoves, and probably other brands too, are relatively inexpensive and good quality. They should last for years.

snrek · Jan 31, 2015

The long, slow burns are critical here since most of the time it is above 30-40 degrees, the house is relatively tight and pretty well insulated, I only heat about 1000 sq.ft. most of the time unless the stove is producing enough heat to open up the rest of the house. Too much heat is more of an issue than too little.
I like the top load feature because even though I burn only well seasoned oak the wood still manages to pop and burn the floor beyond the hearth when the front doors are opened and the fresh air hits what's left of the wood. Is this normal?
I'm approaching 70 and constantly jumping up to feed the fire and engage or disengage the cat is getting tiresome plus (as I understand) I can't have the cat engaged when I go to bed because the fire temperature drops too low as it burns out and that further shortens the life of the cat. If the cat can't be engaged what good is it?
I already have too many things around here that need fixing (as the old saying goes "If it ain't broke it ain't mine!") and the thought of making time for a total rebuild and regasketing is daunting, especially when I know it will have to be done again in a few years!
The biggest draw back to me is that the location of the cat requires a thorough cleaning of the whole stove and some dismantling of the stove to clean the cat 2-3 times each year. Also the refractory material is very weak and expensive to replace. Is there a cat stove that has a large, easy to access cat, perhaps with a tougher refractory around it.
The hookup is a top vent going straight up through the ceiling, it is 6" diameter and seems to draw well. I would like to keep the cost of a replacement stove below about $2000. If there isn't a good answer out there I will just rebuild and limp along with this stove, I don't like it but I hate to spend all that money only to trade problems.
Thanks for the replies, feel free to educate me, I won't be offended!

Poindexter · Jan 31, 2015

Well, OK. My average year round 365 day temperature here is +32df, but I'll give this a try ;-)

Stove technology has come a LONG way in the last 10 years.

It sounds like you want a cat stove for the long over night burns, and the new / current production ones are going to do fine with well seasoned oak.

With new production stuff it is OK to get the wood and the stove and the cat hot, engage the cat, go to bed, let the stove burn down into the inactive range on the cat, go to bypass in the AM, reload the firebox, heat everything back up, re-engage the cat, go to work, and come home to a cool/cold stove and inactive cat, repeat and keep a 5-10 year warranty.

I have no idea what would be a good size stove for you, I wear shorts and open windows in weather you are describing, and I have offered before on this website to trade a non-essential body part for five cords of unseasoned oak logs.

Maybe a non-flammable rug in front of your hearth?

Grisu · Jan 31, 2015

snrek said:
I like the top load feature because even though I burn only well seasoned oak the wood still manages to pop and burn the floor beyond the hearth when the front doors are opened and the fresh air hits what's left of the wood. Is this normal?

Oak (like any other wood) is well seasoned when it has an internal moisture content of less than 20%. Have you split a few pieces in half and pressed the pins of a moisture meter in the center of the fresh surfaces? Usually oak is really slow to dry. In your climate I would expect it still needs to be split and stacked in a sunny and windy location for at least 2 years. Embers popping out when you open the door suggests that there is still a lot of internal moisture that makes the wood "explode" when it turns into steam. I have the feeling part of your problem with this stove is wet wood. The way you seem to have trouble with the cat staying active is certainly not normal.

Anyway, the way you describe your heating needs you certainly should look at a small cat stove like the ones I mentioned earlier. However, finding a top-loader will be essentially impossible.

begreen · Jan 31, 2015

The issue you have had with the Intrepid is that it has too little capacity. For your heating needs I would get a cat stove with a bigger belly. It can still burn low and slow if designed right. A couple options would be a Woodstock Keystone or Fireview, or a Blaze King Sirocco or Ashford 20 or 30. The Blaze King is designed for low and slow burning and is probably the best choice.

snrek · Jan 31, 2015

I'm very different in my tolerating what I call "cold". Anything less than 60 degrees outside forces me inside and the house has to be kept at 69 degrees or more! I stay cold and miserable from December through March. I could only move south from here there is no way I could live in Alaska!

This stove is well over 20 years old and I'm sure some of the technology is "dated” and I found out after I bought it that the VC Intrepid didn't have a good reputation to start with. It is a very "hands on" or “tweaky” stove from the reviews I've seen. When my wife and I bought it over 20 years ago all we knew about woodstoves was that you put wood in them.

I looked at the stoves you suggested Wood Duck, and the Englander 13 might fit the bill and the price is right., the Lopi 1250 is interesting, but there are no local dealers and the purchase price AND the shipping might be too much. Some of the BK 20 line, particularly the Sirocco looks even more interesting.

Are there any other drawbacks to the all steel construction? I know about the quicker cool-down and the possibility of rust-out if the bottom is too thin.

I hadn't considered the possibility that my wood might not be below 20% MC, it usually is at least 2 years old by the time I use it, but it doesn't stack well having to be 12” or less for this stove so it is just heaped in the shed and our area is famous for high humidity, 90% or more in the summers. I need a good meter. One more thing to buy! If I can resolve the popping problem the need for a top loader would go away. Wet wood could contribute to my rather short cat life also. Hmm!

Thanks again for your sharing your expertise. As a friend likes to say “there isn't ONE of us in this room as smart as ALL of us in this room”.

begreen · Jan 31, 2015

All steel is fine. These stoves stand up well. They are not made of thin sheet metal. Note that the Englander 13NC has very stiff hearth requirements. The Lopi 1250 does not. Another good stove in this class is the Pacific Energy True North TN19. It sells for about $800.The BK stoves will be substantially higher, but they have a good reputation and do what they advertise.

As an alternative, have you considered a mini-split heat pump? A good one will work very well in your climate zone using very little energy.

Poindexter · Jan 31, 2015

You don't need a good moisture meter. Get a cheap one, under $50, under $30 is fine if you can find one.

The only reason to buy a really good meter is if you are dealing with lots and lots of different species.

If you are dealing with one or two kinds of oak you will probably be able to guess the MC of the split you are looking at accurately, without using the meter, in just a year or two.

snrek · Feb 2, 2015

We already have a heat pump and it just runs and runs any time the outside temperature drops to about 40 degrees as it tries to find some heat out there to pump inside.
I'm ordering a highly-reviewed moisture meter for $19 and an IR thermometer for about $20 from Amazon, so hopefully I'll be able to make better decisions with better information.
I've been looking at various stoves and my head is spinning from overload. I need to make a grid of the stoves and all their features and prices.
I really like the BK Sirocco 20, it is just what I'm looking for (I think) but the price is outrageous, it would be $3000 or more with some "options" and shipping. I will not go to that extreme for my minimal heating needs. Besides which there is no dealer within hundreds of miles of me and the dealers are only supposed to sell to people in their area.
The TN19 is very interesting except that it has no ash pan. That seems impractical.
Are there sales after the heating season is over? Do the prices come down?
Thanks for all your replies, it has been very enlightening.

Plow Boy · Feb 2, 2015

I would recommed the windsor steel stove by vc. I have one, and it is a very simple stove to operate and maintain. I would look at the small model, i have the large and it will heat up to 2000 sq. ft.

begreen · Feb 2, 2015

snrek said:
We already have a heat pump and it just runs and runs any time the outside temperature drops to about 40 degrees as it tries to find some heat out there to pump inside.
I'm ordering a highly-reviewed moisture meter for $19 and an IR thermometer for about $20 from Amazon, so hopefully I'll be able to make better decisions with better information.
I've been looking at various stoves and my head is spinning from overload. I need to make a grid of the stoves and all their features and prices.
I really like the BK Sirocco 20, it is just what I'm looking for (I think) but the price is outrageous, it would be $3000 or more with some "options" and shipping. I will not go to that extreme for my minimal heating needs. Besides which there is no dealer within hundreds of miles of me and the dealers are only supposed to sell to people in their area.
The TN19 is very interesting except that it has no ash pan. That seems impractical.
Are there sales after the heating season is over? Do the prices come down?
Thanks for all your replies, it has been very enlightening.

Yes, BK stoves are expensive. But they deliver a steady slow burn. You might have better luck in your area finding a Buck 20 catalytic stove. That should be a thousand less.

Ash pans are over-rated. We don't use ours. Instead I shovel out our stove about once a month. And that is with burning a lot more wood I suspect than one would burn in FL. I wouldn't bet on prices dropping much. Some companies offer free accessories as an off-season incentive. The big box stores are starting to clear out stoves now to make room for yard and garden inventory. That would probably be the cheapest sale happening this month.

snrek · Feb 3, 2015

I think I have settled on the Napoleon 1400 series. Reviewers claim it can be "throttled back" well and will give a long, low burn.
It meets my criteria, low maintenance, long burn time, 16" or bigger logs, welded steel construction, ash pan to hold down dust, you can cook on top of it and it has a good heat output at a more reasonable price. It isn't a cat which keeps my feelings mixed. Cats throttle back better in general but I'm tired of living with mine, having to cool off the stove then clean it and partially dismantle it to clean the cat 2-3 times per year. I won't miss that a bit!
This whole adventure started mainly to be able to heat our home and cook simple meals when there is no power, then we discovered lower heating bills, self-sufficiency and the feel of wood heat. Aaaaah!
My MM and IR thermometer will be here today thanks to Amazon Prime and my learning process will get a boost.
Many thanks for all the help, this is a great forum with great people!

Plow Boy · Feb 3, 2015

snrek said:
I think I have settled on the Napoleon 1400 series. Reviewers claim it can be "throttled back" well and will give a long, low burn.
It meets my criteria, low maintenance, long burn time, 16" or bigger logs, welded steel construction, ash pan to hold down dust, you can cook on top of it and it has a good heat output at a more reasonable price. It isn't a cat which keeps my feelings mixed. Cats throttle back better in general but I'm tired of living with mine, having to cool off the stove then clean it and partially dismantle it to clean the cat 2-3 times per year. I won't miss that a bit!
This whole adventure started mainly to be able to heat our home and cook simple meals when there is no power, then we discovered lower heating bills, self-sufficiency and the feel of wood heat. Aaaaah!
My MM and IR thermometer will be here today thanks to Amazon Prime and my learning process will get a boost.
Many thanks for all the help, this is a great forum with great people!

Yep, you got the bug. Enjoy, burning wood has benefits on so many levels. I think that is why there is so much diversity on this site. You can never run out of new things to learn, or another aspect of burning to get into

begreen · Feb 3, 2015

The Napoleon should serve you well as long as you have a tall enough chimney. That means 16 ft. This stove will not work well on a lesser one, it needs good draft, especially in milder FL temps. If the chimney is shorter, look at the Pacific Energy Super 27 instead.

Grisu · Feb 3, 2015

snrek said:
I think I have settled on the Napoleon 1400 series. Reviewers claim it can be "throttled back" well and will give a long, low burn.
It meets my criteria, low maintenance, long burn time, 16" or bigger logs, welded steel construction, ash pan to hold down dust, you can cook on top of it and it has a good heat output at a more reasonable price. It isn't a cat which keeps my feelings mixed. Cats throttle back better in general but I'm tired of living with mine, having to cool off the stove then clean it and partially dismantle it to clean the cat 2-3 times per year. I won't miss that a bit!
This whole adventure started mainly to be able to heat our home and cook simple meals when there is no power, then we discovered lower heating bills, self-sufficiency and the feel of wood heat. Aaaaah!
My MM and IR thermometer will be here today thanks to Amazon Prime and my learning process will get a boost.
Many thanks for all the help, this is a great forum with great people!

How tall is your flue? Napoleons usually like good draft and benefit from a taller flue. Especially in your rather mild climate you may need at least the recommended minimum.

Oldman47 · Feb 3, 2015

So both of you, Griso and begreen, are saying the Napoleons require a tall chimney. I am still in the process of installing my new Napoleon 1100 and am wondering about it. My flue and chimney are in the center of my new home but are only going to total around 15 feet. Do I need to be ready to add another 2 or 3 feet and a roof brace to my single story install? Just wondering because it is going to be several weeks before I get to actually fire mine to break-in/cure it. Right now my hearth is not ready for any fire and drywall and mud have the priority, not the hearth.

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