EPA new wood stove requirements!

jatoxico · Feb 11, 2015

j7art2 said:
They have longer to comply, but I emailed Drolet and asked for clarification, and they still have guidelines they have to abide by. There was a posting earlier in the thread about these, the regulations they will need to be following. I'm having difficulty deciphering exactly when the cut off date is for compliance though. After speaking with Drolet, it sounds like the Tundra for example, will likely be phased out, and they will be working on another (larger) unit completely. The current Tundra, though EPA certified right now does not meet new upcoming regulations. Close, but no cigar. They've told me that they are planning on releasing a new larger unit in the future, and to watch for it. If it was as easy as installing a cat to meet emissions, why reinvent the wheel?

Yeah I don't know about all that but it seems like we're mixing different things in this thread though. By many accounts EPA cat Stoves do quite well and are loved by their owners. Since Wood furnaces are not currently subject to EPA reg's I guess most manufacturers don't see the benefit because as you sorta said, it's one thing to maintain 2-4 cords/yr of properly seasoned (<20%) wood for a stove, would be different if you're using >10 cords a year in a furnace.

I'm sure the wood furnace manufacturers could do it but when their competitors furnaces work with whatever they are fed while yours is choking on it, it will be your sales that suffer. I guess that's where the gasification boilers come in. Better suited technology for the purpose.

begreen · Feb 11, 2015

My guess is that with the new regs we will see hybrid cat and tube furnaces coming out. The cat will take care of the nemesis of wood furnaces, low and slow or idle burning when high heat is not being called for. At higher burn rates the secondary tubes will handle the larger wood gas volume. But who knows, maybe someone will have a gasifier design?

FWIW I suspect we are going to see some companies drop out of this market. It's not large and some will not want to spend the money R&D, testing and certification.

j7art2 · Feb 11, 2015

begreen said:
That is a huge amount of wood to heat a 1700 sq ft house. I would guess a Blaze King King stove with dry fuel could cut that down 2/3ds. Part of the issue is green wood though. It can be made to burn, but the heat loss and emissions are high.

I agree, it is quite a bit. I've gone through more wood this year than my dad has in 10 years with his radiant wood stove insert. Almost all of my wood is dead and down stuff gathered from state land, so most of it is seasoned pretty well. Some of it has some outer moisture, but for the most part I'm golden. I took a few chunks of fresh ash down, but they all met moisture requirements before going in, as I'm leery of burning green stuff. Cleaned the chimney last weekend though and it looked darn good. Didn't even need a scrubbing, just a leaf-blowering! lol

I apologize to everyone if I came in here on an apparent high horse tossing away cat technology when comparing wood furnaces to wood stoves, as we all know that they are two very different creatures. Unfortunately, this EPA discussion isn't happening in the wood furnace section (yet) because everyone just got their new Drolet Tundra's when they were on sale at Menards. I wasn't one of them this year, as the tax return had to go to the normal furnace. This EPA stuff effects us all though, and I'm trying to catch up to speed on all of it.

The Yukon brand furnaces are all 90% efficient, but some of them are exempt (i think) because they are combo furnaces. I don't know if the SuperJack would meet qualifications, but normally higher efficiency means less emissions. Unfortunately, at the end of the day we're talking $7000 with install though for one of these.

BrotherBart · Feb 11, 2015

Blaze King has had hybrid cat furnaces for a while now.

http://www.blazeking.com/EN/furnace-apex.html

j7art2 · Feb 11, 2015

BrotherBart said:
Blaze King has had hybrid cat furnaces for a while now.

http://www.blazeking.com/EN/furnace-apex.html

Touche'. I guess I never looked at them since they're too small for my house.

brant2000 · Feb 11, 2015

j7art2 said:
Touche'. I guess I never looked at them since they're too small for my house.

That's crazy, if 60 MBH can't heat a 1,700 SF house.

MishMouse · Feb 11, 2015

j7art2 said:
Full. I cut 12 this year total, and I've got about 2 left. I haven't used all 12 yet, but if the weather keeps it up this way, I will be. I installed my fresh air intake just last month, and noticed a slight difference. I've been burning since the beginning of October, maybe earlier.

Wow that is a lot of wood, have you ever considered a wood stove instead of a wood furnace?
Many people on this forum heat their homes to above 70 with stoves placed in their basements.
All you need is to allow for air flow between the floors.
Myself I heat my home into the 70's with my TL300 and would estimate I used around 3-4 cords since October burning 24-7 and I live in central MN.
If my wood was as seasoned as I would want it to be I would have only burnt at the most 3 cords.

Seanm · Feb 11, 2015

begreen said:
My guess is that with the new regs we will see hybrid cat and tube furnaces coming out. The cat will take care of the nemesis of wood furnaces, low and slow or idle burning when high heat is not being called for. At higher burn rates the secondary tubes will handle the larger wood gas volume

You and I both burn PE stoves. I wonder what they will do when the new regs roll in, any insight? The idea of a hybrid has me curious. Im not sure if Im at the point where I want to go full cat, hard to say I guess since Ive never used one. Ive thought for awhile though that it would be nice to have as you say low and slow during shoulder season (this year we seem to be having one in the middle of winter!)

begreen · Feb 11, 2015

Nope, I don't know what PE, Quad, Jotul, Hearthstone, etc. are up to. I suspect we'll be seeing more cat stoves and hybrids. Australia and New Zealand have some pretty tough regs. Perhaps we will see some of their stoves or stove designs showing up here? This is one I would like to see:
http://www.pyroclassic.co.nz/

When looking at stoves for sale in NZ I noted the Osburn 1600 there. The current page on their website says the 1600 is testing at .87gm/hr.. But then if you go in the tech specs for the stove it says 4.4gm/hr. Wazzup SBI?
http://www.osburn-mfg.com/en/heaters/1600-wood-stove-2008-

Seanm · Feb 11, 2015

begreen said:
Nope, I don't know what PE, Quad, Jotul, Hearthstone, etc. are up to

maybe I will call PE and see. Like someone else said somewhere here, its not likely a surprise to any of the manufactures. It would be interesting to chat with them about their thoughts. Thanks for the links I will check them out.

DamienBricka · Feb 11, 2015

I hope I am not misunderstanding that my brand new Drolet Austral will have to remove by the end of the year and replaced by an expensive stove that may or may not clean cleaner. Can someone clarify for me. Thanks

Longboat · Feb 11, 2015

I would think your old stove is grandfathered in and would not require an upgrade, DamienBricka. My fear, however, would be that I couldn't sell my house with my Drolet Legend unless I upgraded. It's a small fear, though. Folks can still sell their homes with inefficient gas or propane furnaces without such requirements.

BrotherBart · Feb 11, 2015

DamienBricka said:
I hope I am not misunderstanding that my brand new Drolet Austral will have to remove by the end of the year and replaced by an expensive stove that may or may not clean cleaner. Can someone clarify for me. Thanks

Your stove will be fine. You won't have to replace it. The new regs say that a new stove that does not comply can't be sold.

Poindexter · Feb 12, 2015

j7art2 said:
I apologize to everyone if I came in here on an apparent high horse tossing away cat technology when comparing wood furnaces to wood stoves, as we all know that they are two very different creatures.

I read this a few hours ago. Been stewing on it, I want to make this count. It takes a grown man with a fully developed pair to say that and I want to be gracious here.

I too think 12 cords is a lot for 1700sqft. I recognize most of Michigan had colder weather (or as cold of weather) as I did last winter, but I kept my 1980s construction 1200sqft at and above 80dF with 8 cords.

Two possibilities.

1. I encourage you to go find some free pallets - you'll need about 20 for all 12 cords. Split everything you got for next winter one time only, stack it on the 20 pallets, put some tarps on the top and leave it alone from soon, maybe late April until your next heating season starts.

2. Borrow some sidewalk chalk from one of the kids and go around your house checking windows and outlets for air leaks. Just mark them with chalk for attention later this year, everywhere you feel cold air coming in. You will probably drop about $200 at your local Lowes-Depot, you'll need some blue painters masking tape, some cans of name brand expanding foam (like 3M or BASF) and probably enough millwork to replace the trim on 1 or 2 windows. Couple tubes of silicone caulk. Maybe a mitre box with saw ($12) to cut replacement window trim.

If you go around the house laying your bare hand on drywall you're almost definitely going to find some air leaks. Some of the worst ones probably already have some caulking on them from the early 1980s. Just mark them with chalk in the winter, the foam doesn't cure very well in cold weather. Once your ambient outdoor temp is above 60dF or so, pull the window trim off the one window with the worst airleaks. You will probably wreck the trim on the the first window or two you attempt, but it isn't a permanent affliction. You will probably find an air gap all the way around the window, that is with the interior trim off you will probably be able to see the exterior window trim from inside the house.

Put the blue tape on both the window frame and the adjacent drywall all the way around the window. You will make a mess the first time. Fill that air gap with the expanding foam. Once it is cured cut it down to size with a sharp knife and maybe finish shaping with a Surform (tm) plane by Stanley. Reinstall window trim.

I feel pretty confident if you do those two things you ought to be able to get by on nine cords per year as long as you own the house. Really, three cords a year. That's a lot of free time back to go fishing or drink beer or sit on the couch with the wife.

Best wishes,
Poindexter

tarzan · Feb 12, 2015

Poindexter, I gave you a like because of your very descriptive post about sealing air leakes and the benefits but you do live in Fairbanks, Alaska by your own choice. I think we could have all just assumed you have large testicles.

Oldman47 · Feb 12, 2015

Poindexter said:
[quote="j7art2, post: 1897559, member: 37651"

Borrow some sidewalk chalk from one of the kids and go around your house checking windows and outlets for air leaks. Just mark them with chalk for attention later this year, everywhere you feel cold air coming in. You will probably drop about $200 at your local Lowes-Depot, you'll need some blue painters masking tape, some cans of name brand expanding foam (like 3M or BASF) and probably enough millwork to replace the trim on 1 or 2 windows. Couple tubes of silicone caulk. Maybe a mitre box with saw ($12) to cut replacement window trim.

If you go around the house laying your bare hand on drywall you're almost definitely going to find some air leaks. Some of the worst ones probably already have some caulking on them from the early 1980s. Just mark them with chalk in the winter, the foam doesn't cure very well in cold weather. Once your ambient outdoor temp is above 60dF or so, pull the window trim off the one window with the worst airleaks. You will probably wreck the trim on the the first window or two you attempt, but it isn't a permanent affliction. You will probably find an air gap all the way around the window, that is with the interior trim off you will probably be able to see the exterior window trim from inside the house.

Put the blue tape on both the window frame and the adjacent drywall all the way around the window. You will make a mess the first time. Fill that air gap with the expanding foam. Once it is cured cut it down to size with a sharp knife and maybe finish shaping with a Surform (tm) plane by Stanley. Reinstall window trim.

I feel pretty confident if you do those two things you ought to be able to get by on nine cords per year as long as you own the house. Really, three cords a year. That's a lot of free time back to go fishing or drink beer or sit on the couch with the wife.

Best wishes,
Poindexter

Be darned particular about which foam you use. If you use a crack filler type the windows will no longer work because that stuff will actually squeeze the window frame slightly. You may not see it but the window will stop opening and closing properly. They specifically make window and door foam that expands a bit less forcefully and will not force the window frame inward to give you sticking windows. I use the Great Stuff made for windows and doors around windows and doors and the one they label for filling cracks for around outdoor hose connections and such. Those foams are not the same as each other but you apply them the same way. Never fill a gap more than half full using either foam because when you come back 10 minutes later the foam will have at least doubled in size. If you filled more than half you will spend a lot of time trimming down the excess with a knife and worse yet trying to clean the stuff off of visible surfaces.
For cost control, make sure you have identified all places to use the foam before you start. Once you start to use a can you are committed. There is no going back and using what is left of a can even an hour later. The application tube and the can's nozzle will be full of cured material and you can just toss whatever you had left in that can. Get everything ready and then use up a can at a time.

j7art2 · Feb 12, 2015

brant2000 said:
That's crazy, if 60 MBH can't heat a 1,700 SF house.

The one you linked heats up to 1400sqft. I looked at the BK products briefly, but couldn't find one that had anything over that in the configuration I need.

j7art2 · Feb 12, 2015

Poindexter said:
I apologize to everyone if I came in here on an apparent high horse tossing away cat technology when comparing wood furnaces to wood stoves, as we all know that they are two very different creatures.

I read this a few hours ago. Been stewing on it, I want to make this count. It takes a grown man with a fully developed pair to say that and I want to be gracious here.

I too think 12 cords is a lot for 1700sqft. I recognize most of Michigan had colder weather (or as cold of weather) as I did last winter, but I kept my 1980s construction 1200sqft at and above 80dF with 8 cords.

Two possibilities.

1. I encourage you to go find some free pallets - you'll need about 20 for all 12 cords. Split everything you got for next winter one time only, stack it on the 20 pallets, put some tarps on the top and leave it alone from soon, maybe late April until your next heating season starts.

2. Borrow some sidewalk chalk from one of the kids and go around your house checking windows and outlets for air leaks. Just mark them with chalk for attention later this year, everywhere you feel cold air coming in. You will probably drop about $200 at your local Lowes-Depot, you'll need some blue painters masking tape, some cans of name brand expanding foam (like 3M or BASF) and probably enough millwork to replace the trim on 1 or 2 windows. Couple tubes of silicone caulk. Maybe a mitre box with saw ($12) to cut replacement window trim.

If you go around the house laying your bare hand on drywall you're almost definitely going to find some air leaks. Some of the worst ones probably already have some caulking on them from the early 1980s. Just mark them with chalk in the winter, the foam doesn't cure very well in cold weather. Once your ambient outdoor temp is above 60dF or so, pull the window trim off the one window with the worst airleaks. You will probably wreck the trim on the the first window or two you attempt, but it isn't a permanent affliction. You will probably find an air gap all the way around the window, that is with the interior trim off you will probably be able to see the exterior window trim from inside the house.

Put the blue tape on both the window frame and the adjacent drywall all the way around the window. You will make a mess the first time. Fill that air gap with the expanding foam. Once it is cured cut it down to size with a sharp knife and maybe finish shaping with a Surform (tm) plane by Stanley. Reinstall window trim.

I feel pretty confident if you do those two things you ought to be able to get by on nine cords per year as long as you own the house. Really, three cords a year. That's a lot of free time back to go fishing or drink beer or sit on the couch with the wife.

Best wishes,
Poindexter

I've found that since I installed my fresh air intake in my basement, my wood usage has gone down considerably. I simply wasn't getting complete combustion. I still have some (minor) issues with that, and am considering upgrading my fresh air intake fan to a slightly larger one. I have no way of verifying that the fan on the unit is the correct size, or is not a smaller replacement that someone simply rigged. Unfortunately, I had burned half my supply by the time I installed my fresh air intake. This is my first year burning wood in this unit and in this house, so I know not all of my wood was prime, and that may have been part of it. All of what I cut was 'dead and down', but 'dead and down' doesn't always mean fully seasoned, even if down for 3-4 years. My moisture meter though has been a blessing in disguise here, and if there's any question on the wood, it either gets leaned against the unit and 'kiln dried' for a few days, or if it's close, mixed with better wood and burned hot. I've been keeping a close eye on my flue, running my fires hot, etc though, and haven't had any considerable buildup to speak of. Nothing the leaf blower couldn't handle. I understand this isn't ideal, and already have about 3 cords seasoning already that I knew I had no chance of burning this year. Everyone has to start somewhere.

One of the major issues with my unit is that the firebox is HUGE (i could literally fit inside it if I could fit through the door, and I'm 6'0, 215lbs) and is virtually completely uninsulated. It's got places for fire bricks along the bottom, but has no way to put firebrick along the walls, back, or top. I had briefly considered welding in some thick strapping along the walls as 'slots' to hold firebrick in. Unfortunately there's no way for me to run my welder in the basement without some electrical work.

I think just doing this would help quite a bit too, as it would serve two purposes. It'd make the firebox smaller, and would retain more heat.

Due to funky backdrafting issues, I also am forced to keep my key damper fully open almost all the time, and I know this is a contributing factor as well. I have a baffle/bypass damper in the unit itself which is always closed (It causes the smoke to form an S and stay in the unit longer) but I can't seem to utilize both effectively, no matter what I do.

brant2000 · Feb 12, 2015

j7art2 said:
The one you linked heats up to 1400sqft. I looked at the BK products briefly, but couldn't find one that had anything over that in the configuration I need.

I don't know anything about BK (certainly have read a lot of glowing reviews for their stoves), but just to put it into perspective....

60 MBH output is just about the equivalent of burning 300 # of wood per day. That would be a rate of 9,000 #/month, or almost 3 cord per month (depending on species). That would heat my house (3000 SF + finished basement + hot tub + domestic HW) easily down to -10 degrees or so.

Not sure why they show on their website that that unit can only heat 1,400 SF with an output like that.

j7art2 · Feb 12, 2015

brant2000 said:
I don't know anything about BK (certainly have read a lot of glowing reviews for their stoves), but just to put it into perspective....

60 MBH output is just about the equivalent of burning 300 # of wood per day. That would be a rate of 9,000 #/month, or almost 3 cord per month (depending on species). That would heat my house (3000 SF + finished basement + hot tub + domestic HW) easily down to -10 degrees or so.

Not sure why they show on their website that that unit can only heat 1,400 SF with an output like that.

I understand completely. I've been looking at the Yukon Big Jack and Yukon Super Jack, and I know that my friend decided to go for the 'bigger unit' with his 2400sqft house that's 100 years old and has less insulation than a cardboard box. He's now having the issue that he has 'too much furnace' for his house, and is having to split his wood to kindling size to heat the place (lol)

The Big Jack heats up to 1500sqft, and the Super Jack heats up to 3000 or so, but is twice the money. Part of me thinks 1700sqft is pretty close to 1500sqft, but we can get some wicked -30dF nights here fairly regularly, and the last thing I want is a unit that's too small and is a waste of money because it can't keep up.

If I don't end up going with a Drolet Tundra and decide on a Yukon for the extra efficiency, I'll likely be calling them and discussing it before I place the order. I won't be getting another unit though until next tax season at the earliest though.

jatoxico · Feb 12, 2015

j7art2 said:
I understand completely. I've been looking at the Yukon Big Jack and Yukon Super Jack,

If I don't end up going with a Drolet Tundra and decide on a Yukon for the extra efficiency, I'll likely be calling them and discussing it before I place the order. I won't be getting another unit though until next tax season at the earliest though.

So you have a wood furnace in the basement and may want to make a change/upgrade? Maybe a small unit in the living space to supplement? If you want, start a new thread with as many details as you have (s.f, layout and existing unit) and kicj it around.

j7art2 · Feb 12, 2015

jatoxico said:
So you have a wood furnace in the basement and may want to make a change/upgrade? Maybe a small unit in the living space to supplement? If you want, start a new thread with as many details as you have (s.f, layout and existing unit) and kicj it around.

One of these days I'll be upgrading. Right now, it's just a dream, but i'll be saving here and there for a new unit. I've got a few units in mind, but still trying to wrap my head around all the EPA stuff in regards to forced air furnaces. The regs are different, but still changing even for us.

My house layout is funky dory. It's a chalet style home. The chimney is external (and runs along a bedroom of the house), so it forces me to have the unit in the basement. I'd love to have a radiant stove or enclosed fireplace insert in the living room like I grew up with but it's not a feasible option unfortunately.

begreen · Feb 12, 2015

I'd also look in to the PSG Caddy line of furnaces for greater efficiency. FWIW, my wife couldn't visualize a stove in the living room either. That is until I reversed the room layout and put in a new, straight up chimney. It works better than we ever thought it would. Be creative and play with that idea a while.

brenndatomu · Feb 12, 2015

j7art2 said:
The Yukon brand furnaces are all 90% efficient

Uhh...noooo. They wish. You musta drank a big ole glass of the Yukon koolaid J! ;lol

begreen said:
I'd also look in to the PSG Caddy line of furnaces for greater efficiency

Reposted for emphasis of a good idea

Light in the Dark · Feb 13, 2015

begreen said:
I'd also look in to the PSG Caddy line of furnaces for greater efficiency. FWIW, my wife couldn't visualize a stove in the living room either. That is until I reversed the room layout and put in a new, straight up chimney. It works better than we ever thought it would. Be creative and play with that idea a while.

X2. If you want a stove in this area, you will figure out a way to make it happen. Not too hard to poke through an exterior wall and connect into your chimney where it sits.

EPA new wood stove requirements!

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