Convince me to go Boiler...or not

runnerxc · Feb 12, 2015

Hey all,
Looking for some advice. I've heated with wood for the past 5 years, love it. Had a Daka Wood Furnace in our old house (which we just sold) and it worked, while not the most efficient, it got the job done on our 1000 sq ft house and I didn't have to pay for propane.

We are moving into a new house and I want to continue to use wood. I was just going to do another add on wood furnace (Drolet Tundra more than likely) but that would require me to get a new, more efficient propane furnace so I can vent it out the wall and free up the chimney in the basement. While thinking about that cost, I started to consider maybe just putting in a wood boiler in the barn/outbuilding and using that, gaining the benefits of heating hot water, garage, and other things in the future.

The question I have for you is, what do you think? I love the idea of a wood boiler, outside in the barn, right next to my wood (keep the wife happy too, no mess inside)...but honestly the configuration/piping of these systems can get crazy and it's a little overwhelming.

My system would be simple to start, Wood Boiler in barn (love the EKO 40 from everything I'm reading and it's the right size), piped underground about 100' to house (i know of importance of insulating underground pipe), water to air exchanger for furnace (no storage to start with unless I can work it into the budget), and DHW heat exchanger for hot water, then back to furnace. I would add storage in the near future or whenever I could. I'm having trouble finding a design for this, pressurized or not, where to have circulators, where to have pressure release valves, will this simple system work with heat exchangers, etc? I would likely add radiant heat in the future as well, we are moving into a ranch and it would be fairly easy to do with access to all the floor from basement.

Any help, ideas, diagrams, links, or whatever you could give me would be very appreciated. I've done tons of reading on this and feel like I've kind of hit a wall with my situation/setup. Sorry for the long post.

jeffesonm · Feb 12, 2015

Read this thread, in particular post #10: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...oiler-system-for-new-home-with-eko-40.129621/

runnerxc · Feb 12, 2015

Hey Jeff,
Thanks for the link. I have actually seen that one before. I guess my situation is a little different because I already have ducting/HVAC so I would have to use an exchanger in the plenum until I could get radiant in. I guess what I'm wondering is, how hard is it to keep the boiler at 140+? I'm only heating a 1800 sq ft house, DHW, and maybe a garage...Is it doable? Or not worth the hassle? I see the benefits of radiant and storage since you can use the water down to 90-95 degrees...but that would be down the line as my budget allows.

Tennman · Feb 12, 2015

Runner, It's not that complex. We ran a basic, water to air HX, forced air, out in the barn, no storage system for 5 years. If you've read the underground sticky, then you've read the beginning of my hard education as a DIY'er in a region where gasification boiler systems are like hen's teeth. A minimal system will 6-9 components not including the boiler and underground lines. Lots of 40 Class EKO and BioMass users around who I'm sure will provide a component list. It will involve some simple math to size the pump based on pex size, boiler output, and run length. You'll have to make a call to a water to air HX supplier to give him the necessary data to match the fan and boiler output. If you just assume 1 1/4" pex you're good for now, any addition in the future, and require a smaller pump. So the components that must be sized/selected specifically for your application are actually few. Arrange your boiler and plumbing for the eventual addition of storage and add it when you have money or time. Find and visit some EKO or any gasification users in your area. Look in the EKO and BioMass tuning stickies and send a PM. We will never go back to propane as our primary heat source. Lots of example schematics of the most basic non-storage systems around. AND.... do not presume the dealer/distributor will recommend the correctly sized pump or HX. If I had installed the pex size and pump recommended by the "expert" my system would have been severely strangled. Lots of generous help and EKO users here. Not a big deal if you decide to plunge. Best wishes.

But from my wife and my experience, we will NEVER operate without storage again. It was a game changer.

GENECOP · Feb 12, 2015

Not that complicated BUT, it can be if you don't have much experience and if nobody in your location has experience in these types of systems....for us in the NY Long Island area, 99% of the plumbers around here look at you like you have two heads when you discuss wood boilers.....After three years of designing, planning and installing I am just starting to see the light and with the help of some good friends I should be in the final tweaking stages after my main storage is added..Overall is a very rewarding process, just be prepared for a bit of late night thinking.....

runnerxc · Feb 12, 2015

That's kind of how I feel, I'm in Northeast Ohio and I have yet to see a local dealer have any kind of indoor wood boiler. One that I know of that carries Central Boiler's, which I already decided I don't want to spend 12k+ on an OWB when I have a great place to put an indoor wood burner. I'd like to do as much of the work as I can myself but trying to just plan my system is starting to get overwhelming...there is just so much info out there and so many different setups.

mike van · Feb 13, 2015

My advise, do the storage at the same time - The gassers like to run flat out, not be cycled on & off when 40 gallons of water get up to 180 degrees.

DoubleB · Feb 13, 2015

Just curious, might affect advice for you:

How certain are you that you will remain at this new house for many, many years?

The existing furnace that is using the central chimney--what kind of furnace is it (oil, gas, old/new)? Do you know what kind of chimney it is? (Is it ready for a wood appliance, if you put one there?)

JP11 · Feb 13, 2015

I'd say... do it right the first time. Plan more, save more.. do the storage at the same time.

Your plumber doesn't have to have ever done one. If he understands the concepts of moving BTUs... YOU will know about the components and their reasoning. There is very little 'wood specific' in these ideas. Thermal Protection for return water being one of them. The importance of underground lines insulation can't be overstated. My recommendation is MANY temperature wells in the system. Then you can SEE where the heat is, and where it's going. Will be cool for the 'geek' in you.. but VITAL if you have issues later on.

JP

maple1 · Feb 13, 2015

Agree with many temp readings, but it doesn't have to involve wells. I much prefer surface mount temp sensors.

Along with a couple tridicators in the right spots...

Hydronics · Feb 13, 2015

I would plan for storage as far as where it will be and put the necessary tees, etc. in place for when/if you install it in the future. Check out the "simplest pressurized storage" sticky.
They can be run without storage but you don't want to have it idling during 50* daytime temps. From a strictly financial standpoint, you'll likely get the most bang for the buck with this approach -use it only during the cold heating days and less in the shoulder seasons. Let the fossil fuels carry the less demanding days.
The EKO and similar boilers do offer a good value for the price, they're not the Cadillac at the ball but a good reliable Chevy that'll get you to and from work.

Do your research up front and be realistic, you'll probably be spending $10,000 or more once you get all the piping, and a stack installed.

ewdudley · Feb 13, 2015

Hydronics said:
The EKO and similar boilers do offer a good value for the price, they're not the Cadillac at the ball but a good reliable Chevy that'll get you to and from work.

In terms of btus delivered per pound of fuel and ease of operation day-to-day I can see no significant disadvantage to running the lowest price downdraft gasifiers.

However, had they been available at the time I might have sprung for a Varmbarronen for smart design, efficient use of high quality materials, ease of cleaning, and more convenient plumbing.

DoubleB · Feb 13, 2015

I can’t say whether boiler or furnace is better for you, but I’ll make the furnace argument to try to offer you food for thought...

I was in a very similar situation to you when I bought my house 3 years ago, and was thinking Eko 25/40 in my barn for the same reasons, with 100’ of underground pipe, water/air heat exchanger, and I already had an oil furnace in the house using my masonry chimney. By the time I added up the costs of an Eko25/40 in my barn plus storage, 37 ft chimney liner install, power loss protection, etc., I was looking at about $15,000.

I ended up paying a guy to install a chimney liner, I hooked up a Drolet Tundra to it in my basement, ran some additional ducts, and paid another guy to install a side-vent LP furnace. That ran about $7500.

You might try on for size my reasons for going wood furnace:

-Much simpler system. No storage, no expansion tank, no heat exchangers, no underground pipes, no uninterruptible power supply. No real estate consumed by those components. No risk of frozen water in the barn in dead-end pipes or during a power outage. No boiling over, no water chemistry,... the list goes on...

-In fact, I’m told I’m a pretty astute mechanical engineer, so it’s not as though I couldn’t figure those things out. But it would have taken me at least an extra year to get it operational, which would have meant the boiler would have cost an extra $2500 in fuel oil to get me through the extra winter.

-Marginal cost. It made sense to me to pay $7500 for the wood furnace to save $2500 per year in house heat. I didn’t make sense to pay an additional $7500 for the wood boiler to save about $500 per year in domestic hot water and occasional LP furnace use when I’m lazy and it’s super cold or mild. (DHW cost assumes I don’t run boiler in the summer).

-resale value of your home: If you have to move, I imagine most potential buyers would consider a boiler system or wood furnace to be neutral at best, if not a liability. At least most would want to see an LP/gas or even oil furnace. So, there’s some value to having a side-vent LP/gas furnace even if you have a boiler.

-Self-reliance: My wood furnace can provide minimal heat if electricity is unavailable, hopefully keep my pipes from freezing. That idea is important to me. A boiler in my barn can’t.

-If I really want heat in my barn, I’ll add a wood stove and crank it when I’m out there, which isn’t often enough to keep it heated all winter.

Gotta run, maybe I’ll have more thoughts...

JustWood · Feb 14, 2015

DoubleB said:
I can’t say whether boiler or furnace is better for you, but I’ll make the furnace argument to try to offer you food for thought...

I was in a very similar situation to you when I bought my house 3 years ago, and was thinking Eko 25/40 in my barn for the same reasons, with 100’ of underground pipe, water/air heat exchanger, and I already had an oil furnace in the house using my masonry chimney. By the time I added up the costs of an Eko25/40 in my barn plus storage, 37 ft chimney liner install, power loss protection, etc., I was looking at about $15,000.

I ended up paying a guy to install a chimney liner, I hooked up a Drolet Tundra to it in my basement, ran some additional ducts, and paid another guy to install a side-vent LP furnace. That ran about $7500.

You might try on for size my reasons for going wood furnace:

-Much simpler system. No storage, no expansion tank, no heat exchangers, no underground pipes, no uninterruptible power supply. No real estate consumed by those components. No risk of frozen water in the barn in dead-end pipes or during a power outage. No boiling over, no water chemistry,... the list goes on...

-In fact, I’m told I’m a pretty astute mechanical engineer, so it’s not as though I couldn’t figure those things out. But it would have taken me at least an extra year to get it operational, which would have meant the boiler would have cost an extra $2500 in fuel oil to get me through the extra winter.

-Marginal cost. It made sense to me to pay $7500 for the wood furnace to save $2500 per year in house heat. I didn’t make sense to pay an additional $7500 for the wood boiler to save about $500 per year in domestic hot water and occasional LP furnace use when I’m lazy and it’s super cold or mild. (DHW cost assumes I don’t run boiler in the summer).

-resale value of your home: If you have to move, I imagine most potential buyers would consider a boiler system or wood furnace to be neutral at best, if not a liability. At least most would want to see an LP/gas or even oil furnace. So, there’s some value to having a side-vent LP/gas furnace even if you have a boiler.

-Self-reliance: My wood furnace can provide minimal heat if electricity is unavailable, hopefully keep my pipes from freezing. That idea is important to me. A boiler in my barn can’t.

-If I really want heat in my barn, I’ll add a wood stove and crank it when I’m out there, which isn’t often enough to keep it heated all winter.

Gotta run, maybe I’ll have more thoughts...

100% agree.
I was in a similar situation 10 years ago.
Needed heat in shop also and house wood furnace was on its last leg.
Bought a new boiler that had been installed yet never fired.
Got bids for install as I didn't have time to do it myself. Lowest was $17000.
Scrapped boiler idea and went with new furnace in an added onto house room , wood stove in shop and some extra insulation. Total cost was around $4400.
Don't have any regrets.
After reading all the troubleshooting posts and of the intricacies of the boiler here over the years I know I made the right decision.The very little free time I have is valuable to me and wont be spent beating my head off the side of a boiler again and again. My furnace was basically plug and play. No issues ,,, ever.
The only good thing about that entire boiler fiasco was I sold the new/unused boiler that I had bought at a phat profit !!!

!

runnerxc · Feb 14, 2015

Thanks for all the thoughts everyone. I was originally leaning towards just doing an add on furnace in the basement but with the added cost of having to get a new propane furnace so I can vent out the wall and free up the chimney, I started to look at wood boilers. Lots to think about. Can't argue with the fact that a boiler sure has more moving parts and more hassles...but the idea of designing a system and putting it in really caters to the engineer in me.

Tough call for sure. Love this forum though, such a friendly/helpful atmosphere...very few of these left out there that I know of.

Hydronics · Feb 14, 2015

Ultimately, the decision is what works best for you - all things considered. I will say that gasifiers are not intricate or difficult to set up or use. Much of what you read is from guys fiddling because they like to. I have't changed my settings since the first week I got it going which was 5 years ago. Personally I like storing wood in wood shed out building. I cut, split and stack then don't handle again until I load in boiler.

flyingcow · Feb 15, 2015

I agree with Hydronics.

Once I got the boiler going for a few weeks I haven't touched a setting. The Innova has been simple to run. Lights simply. Burns good. Since 2008.

BoiledOver · Feb 15, 2015

Good thread. I think boilers are good due to water's ability for accepting, storing and releasing btus.

With that said, I appreciate the well stated support of non-water heating systems, and have to say they definitely have their place. Thank you DoubleB and JustWood for pointing that out.

JP11 · Feb 15, 2015

There's certainly a 'plus' in there for a nice natural draft stove that will run with no power.

BUT.. a plus for the efficiency of running ONE appliance in one building that doesn't mind the dust and ash. That one appliance heating TWO building envelopes is a big plus as well.

I hate to say it.. but many people tackle some of these boiler projects without either the MATH or scientific knowledge of what's going on. There's laws of physics on heat transfer, resistance on piping, pump curves... on and on.

If you aren't trained in it.. (and I certainly am not.. but could probably muddle through at this point) have someone that knows what's up do the math. I had Mark and AHONA hand me piping diagrams, electric schematics and the like.

I handed them to the plumber.. and he said.. yeah, ok. I don't use this particular brand or part number.. but we'll do all that stuff. No issues. No change in settings.. just run it. Year one wasn't perfect with sub par wood. Year two was good. Year 3.. cold as a witches teat.. and it's humming along nice.

JP

dman_110 · Feb 15, 2015

Ive burned an OWB for ten years, no mess, no fuss, no fire danger. alot cheaper than a gasser, I understand you cant beat a gasser for efficency, But, there expensive, you gotta keep them clean, there fussy as hell with the wood you use, its gotta be kiln dry, and split 15 times. as far as wood stoves go, your up 4 times a night filling it, its 105 in your living room and 42 in your bedroom, (spotheat, with no hot water). this just works for me, its alot to think about especially when its time to write the check, I think everybodys situation is differant.

JP11 · Feb 15, 2015

LOL.. A bit of an exaggeration, like your OWB smokes like a coal train night and day.

I probably split a bit smaller.. one more split out of round than what most would call 'normal'

EVERYONE should be 3 years ahead on firewood. It's physics, not magic. Water doesn't burn. Your less efficient OWB might use it up.. but you're steaming out that water wasting energy to get the heat from the wood. You'd do better being ahead with wood split 2 years at a minimum.

I like the idea of outdoors.. and were I home all the time.. I might have done a separate shed. My wife would balk.. so that would make the run time drastically less.. as I am away half the month.

Everyone's situation is different.

JP

dman_110 · Feb 15, 2015

JP11 said:
LOL.. A bit of an exaggeration, like your OWB smokes like a coal train night and day.

I probably split a bit smaller.. one more split out of round than what most would call 'normal'

EVERYONE should be 3 years ahead on firewood. It's physics, not magic. Water doesn't burn. Your less efficient OWB might use it up.. but you're steaming out that water wasting energy to get the heat from the wood. You'd do better being ahead with wood split 2 years at a minimum.

I like the idea of outdoors.. and were I home all the time.. I might have done a separate shed. My wife would balk.. so that would make the run time drastically less.. as I am away half the month.

Everyone's situation is different.

JP

it smokes no worse than my neihbors two woodstoves ( I think he soaks his wood in water )

Hydronics · Feb 15, 2015

dman_110 said:
Ive burned an OWB for ten years, no mess, no fuss, no fire danger. alot cheaper than a gasser, I understand you cant beat a gasser for efficency, But, there expensive, you gotta keep them clean, there fussy as hell with the wood you use, its gotta be kiln dry, and split 15 times. as far as wood stoves go, your up 4 times a night filling it, its 105 in your living room and 42 in your bedroom, (spotheat, with no hot water). this just works for me, its alot to think about especially when its time to write the check, I think everybodys situation is differant.

I have a tough time "buying" into this. I bought my eko 60 for $5500, $1500 efficiency tax rebate so: $4000 new. As I understand it, OWB's are at least this expensive. A gasser even without storage is better than an OWB if you can cut wood use nearly in half, no?

maple1 · Feb 15, 2015

dman_110 said:
Ive burned an OWB for ten years, no mess, no fuss, no fire danger. alot cheaper than a gasser, I understand you cant beat a gasser for efficency, But, there expensive, you gotta keep them clean, there fussy as hell with the wood you use, its gotta be kiln dry, and split 15 times. as far as wood stoves go, your up 4 times a night filling it, its 105 in your living room and 42 in your bedroom, (spotheat, with no hot water). this just works for me, its alot to think about especially when its time to write the check, I think everybodys situation is differant.

Sounds like you have no experience with a gasser.

How much wood have you burned in those 10 years?

flyingcow · Feb 15, 2015

I can agree a little bit on the OWB input. If you don't have to buy your wood, and bought an OWB over 10 yes ago. Cost wasn't as high SD today. Especially now that a lot of States require EPA compliant boilers. I looked at the E-Classic. 12k plus your wood needed to be dry at least one year for it to operate correctly. Might as well buy a gasser w/ storage for the same money. Burn less wood. Also, another boiler..... garn doesn't require small wood.

Convince me to go Boiler...or not

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