A Little Heads Up On Wall Outlets

sportbikerider78 said:

Once you do some plumbing yourself, you can't believe that you would ever need someone to come out and do it to maintain code. lol

I replaced 50% of the plumbing in my entire house (pex conversion) in about 20 hrs, by myself.

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Me too. Once you learn pex it is hard to imagine the need for a plumber. I'm replacing and moving my water heater right now. Replacing the 1/2" copper connections with modern 3/4" pex, real valves, an expansion tank, earthquake strapping, drain pan, and I'll even connect the PRV to something.

sportbikerider78 said:

Once you do some plumbing yourself, you can't believe that you would ever need someone to come out and do it to maintain code. lol

I replaced 50% of the plumbing in my entire house (pex conversion) in about 20 hrs, by myself.

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the plumbing code emphasis is much more on drains and venting than on the pressurized potable water supply.

pex is great stuff... I will give you that. orders of magnitude easier and faster than copper. (I wont even acknowledge CPVC as a potable water material)

Highbeam said:

Me too. Once you learn pex it is hard to imagine the need for a plumber. I'm replacing and moving my water heater right now. Replacing the 1/2" copper connections with modern 3/4" pex, real valves, an expansion tank, earthquake strapping, drain pan, and I'll even connect the PRV to something.

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The T&P valve *can not* be connected to anything. it needs to have a pipe leading from it that is the same size as the valve... and there must be a 6" airgap from any sanitary drain to prevent any grey or black water from a backed up drain pipe from being pushed into the potable water supply.

Bret Chase said:

The T&P valve *can not* be connected to anything. it needs to have a pipe leading from it that is the same size as the valve... and there must be a 6" airgap from any sanitary drain to prevent any grey or black water from a backed up drain pipe from being pushed into the potable water supply.

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Uh yes, as you said, the PRV valve will be connected to a tube that ends within 6" of the floor or outside grade. Currently it just sprays you in the face.

sportbikerider78 said:

Once you do some plumbing yourself, you can't believe that you would ever need someone to come out and do it to maintain code. lol

I replaced 50% of the plumbing in my entire house (pex conversion) in about 20 hrs, by myself.

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Water supply isn't the difficult part, drain piping and the associated venting (to do it properly) is. PEX has definitely made it much easier.

This is true. I'll be tackling that next with a toilet relocation during a bathroom remodel.

The Sharkbite fittings with valves built into them are fantastic for hot water heater installs. 5 mins, max.

sportbikerider78 said:

This is true. I'll be tackling that next with a toilet relocation during a bathroom remodel.

The Sharkbite fittings with valves built into them are fantastic for hot water heater installs. 5 mins, max.

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shark bites are soooooo expensive. you can either buy 10 fittings... or take the same money and buy a pex crimper... either the swaged ring style.... or the SS pinch clips. I use the pinch clips.... I haven't had a failure yet with them.

back to outlets, when you consider there are billions of outlets out there, with multi billion connections, failures are non existent. the several examples listed previously were abused, overloaded outlets, users fault. how many were incorrectly installed?? DIYers? probably the safest system in a house, electrical, as long as it is done correctly. user error = bad product not really
I hold licenses in several trades/fields and 9 out of 10 times the failure is self inflicted. common statement, I did it myself, and saved xx dollars over hiring a qualified person, now you are paying me to fix it.

ironpony said:

back to outlets, when you consider there are billions of outlets out there, with multi billion connections, failures are non existent. the several examples listed previously were abused, overloaded outlets, users fault. how many were incorrectly installed?? DIYers? probably the safest system in a house, electrical, as long as it is done correctly. user error = bad product not really
I hold licenses in several trades/fields and 9 out of 10 times the failure is self inflicted. common statement, I did it myself, and saved xx dollars over hiring a qualified person, now you are paying me to fix it.

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That is probally true. At the same time, I can't tell you how many tens of thousands of dollars I have spent fixing the work of so-called 'professionals'. I'm just a mechanical engineer with absolutely zero background in home construction. However, I can figure out how to fix almost anything with the right research and getting the right advice. If the 'professionals' did it right the first time, homeowners wouldn't know squat about wiring, plumbing, irrigation, siding, flashing, lighting, insulation...ect.

When people say, "go get and expert opinion"...I laugh. You have to really dig to find experts these days and most professionals are just hacks trying to get the job done as quickly as possible with zero concern for the home owner or respect for their trade.

When I lack the right equipment to get a job done, I get many quotes and really drill into the details of how they would approach a project. If they are all wildly different, I then assume they are all hacks and approach the project from a different angle.

sportbikerider78 said:

This is true. I'll be tackling that next with a toilet relocation during a bathroom remodel.
The Sharkbite fittings with valves built into them are fantastic for hot water heater installs. 5 mins, max.

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At least with UPC code, no plastic allowed within 18" of any water heater or 6" of a flue.

sportbikerider78 said:

That is probally true. At the same time, I can't tell you how many tens of thousands of dollars I have spent fixing the work of so-called 'professionals'. I'm just a mechanical engineer with absolutely zero background in home construction. However, I can figure out how to fix almost anything with the right research and getting the right advice. If the 'professionals' did it right the first time, homeowners wouldn't know squat about wiring, plumbing, irrigation, siding, flashing, lighting, insulation...ect.

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Found my fair share of hacks as well but attributed it to the "you get what you pay for" saying. They are almost always the cheapest, once I upped my price range I had no trouble getting quality work.

When people say, "go get and expert opinion"...I laugh. You have to really dig to find experts these days and most professionals are just hacks trying to get the job done as quickly as possible with zero concern for the home owner or respect for their trade.




So, are you including engineers as professionals? or just lowly tradesman? Just curious as I am a PE, besides being licensed in several trades pertaining to my field of work.

edit. you do realize most of this sites members are professionals, tradesmen.

brian89gp said:

At least with UPC code, no plastic allowed within 18" of any water heater or 6" of a flue.

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That does not include the seals, just the pipe. For instance, Teflon tape on the pipe threads, or the rubber washers on the metal flex hoses. I will not use those shark bite flex lines at the water heater. It's just too harsh of a location. The stainless steel flex lines, not braided but actual metal, are awesome.

ironpony said:

When people say, "go get and expert opinion"...I laugh. You have to really dig to find experts these days and most professionals are just hacks trying to get the job done as quickly as possible with zero concern for the home owner or respect for their trade.




So, are you including engineers as professionals? or just lowly tradesman? Just curious as I am a PE, besides being licensed in several trades pertaining to my field of work.

edit. you do realize most of this sites members are professionals, tradesmen.

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After a while you learn that general statements as the one you underlined are just going to tick people off. Some professionals are hacks and some are freaking awesome. You DON'T always get what you pay for so you need to hire only the awesome ones. Win some and lose some.

ironpony said:

When people say, "go get and expert opinion"...I laugh. You have to really dig to find experts these days and most professionals are just hacks trying to get the job done as quickly as possible with zero concern for the home owner or respect for their trade.




So, are you including engineers as professionals? or just lowly tradesman? Just curious as I am a PE, besides being licensed in several trades pertaining to my field of work.

edit. you do realize most of this sites members are professionals, tradesmen.

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My statement is not inflammatory or insulting in any way to people who take pride in what they do and do a good job. If someone is a hack, they should take offense..and do us all a favor and find another line of work.

In all of my conversations with people who take pride in their trade, I find them to be the most offended at shoddy work because it casts a shadow on all who practice that trade.

Highbeam said:

That does not include the seals, just the pipe. For instance, Teflon tape on the pipe threads, or the rubber washers on the metal flex hoses. I will not use those shark bite flex lines at the water heater. It's just too harsh of a location. The stainless steel flex lines, not braided but actual metal, are awesome.



After a while you learn that general statements as the one you underlined are just going to tick people off. Some professionals are hacks and some are freaking awesome. You DON'T always get what you pay for so you need to hire only the awesome ones. Win some and lose some.

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Highbeam, that was a quote from another member in the post above, not mine. I was responding to their statement. I guess when I edited it, it dropped the quotes.

ironpony said:

back to outlets, when you consider there are billions of outlets out there, with multi billion connections, failures are non existent. the several examples listed previously were abused, overloaded outlets, users fault. how many were incorrectly installed?? DIYers? probably the safest system in a house, electrical, as long as it is done correctly. user error = bad product not really
I hold licenses in several trades/fields and 9 out of 10 times the failure is self inflicted. common statement, I did it myself, and saved xx dollars over hiring a qualified person, now you are paying me to fix it.

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and part of those i would say the majority of outlets are wired right using the side screw. that doesn't make those backstab outlets good because of few failures. anyone that has ever troubleshot a half of a circuit or the single outlet that is not working usually finds it backstabbed. and the ones that do fail have nothing to do with how it was installed. strip the wire and push it in and the only reason they failed is someone plugged in a 12 amp vacuum into it and over time the normal load made it fail. this shows me the companies out there making them are not testing them for the long run but the look it works and it is easy to install. buy our outlet and save money on labor. oh and overloaded would be 16 amps on a 15 amp circuit. one 12 amp appliance or 12 1 amp appliances = 12 amps. not overloaded because of 12 things running at the same time. if the circuit was overloaded it should trip the breaker.
i do agree about the price. people today are interested in the bottom line. usually the guy with a cheaper price gets it done cheaper because of short cuts like the backstab and other way to cut his time down to get the job. home owner doesn't know the difference until failure.
i do the same thing when it comes to the my auto's i do all my own work. partly because it's cheaper to do so but i used to be a auto mechanic and worked for guy's that used to start replacing parts until the problem disappeared. even tho i can go in and say just replace this there always seems to be another part that is broken.
i guess this is something that will never change.

Another perspective... I have replaced many backstabbed outlets in this old house. In fact I have replaced most of the outlets. I think the backstab install is just part of the problem, the other thing is that those backstab jobs tend to be the 69 cent builder grade outlets that are just cheaper overall - the springs in the sockets are not as good, the gauge of the metal and quality of the plastic is not as good and so on. I have also found that a lot of those backstab outlets where installed by obvious amateurs (might even have been a prior owner who overestimated his DIY skills), who had no concept of things like box fill limits and managed to wire half of them backwards.

As Ive gone through the house Ive ended up checking nearly every outlet and replacing most of them. I swap 30 year old worn out $0.69 backstab jobs for $4 HD or spec grade outlets and usually backwire them (clamped with the side screws). The extra $3 might be meaningful for a builder putting up a hundred houses a year but in the grand scheme of things as the homeowner spending a few hundred to redo every outlet in a 300k house is just a drop in the bucket and money well spent for the piece of mind IMHO.

jharkin said:

Another perspective... I have replaced many backstabbed outlets in this old house. In fact I have replaced most of the outlets. I think the backstab install is just part of the problem, the other thing is that those backstab jobs tend to be the 69 cent builder grade outlets that are just cheaper overall - the springs in the sockets are not as good, the gauge of the metal and quality of the plastic is not as good and so on. I have also found that a lot of those backstab outlets where installed by obvious amateurs (might even have been a prior owner who overestimated his DIY skills), who had no concept of things like box fill limits and managed to wire half of them backwards.

As Ive gone through the house Ive ended up checking nearly every outlet and replacing most of them. I swap 30 year old worn out $0.69 backstab jobs for $4 HD or spec grade outlets and usually backwire them (clamped with the side screws). The extra $3 might be meaningful for a builder putting up a hundred houses a year but in the grand scheme of things as the homeowner spending a few hundred to redo every outlet in a 300k house is just a drop in the bucket and money well spent for the piece of mind IMHO.

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I found a case, like 12, New outlets that I had bought to replace the 50yo backstab outlets in my house as I go. These new ones are the cheap sidewire type that I would have to make hooks. I might even get rid of these new ones in favor of backwire outlets since they are made better, easier to get right, and saves me the time of sidewiring.

think about this. when tightening down a back wire outlet there is a good chance that with one wire under that clamp it's easy to strip out the brass screw because it is screwing in crooked. if you have two wires under the screw it's ok. now you may say that maybe i might be over tightening the screw. nope. if you have ever put a number twelve wire under that clamp and then start moving the wires around to get it to fit in the box you might find that tightening the screw just a little less tight so that not to strip it out the wire starts to move under the clamp and becomes loose then the outlet gets installed and the same thing happens. the side mount is not a cheap design. it works well. also when this happens to the clamp type it can blow a arc fault breaker and send you loopy trying to find why the arc fault is tripping.
just inputting my experience. oh and this happens all the time with gfi receptacles, you can tell by the brown spot on the side of the outlet when you replace it

fbelec said:

think about this. when tightening down a back wire outlet there is a good chance that with one wire under that clamp it's easy to strip out the brass screw because it is screwing in crooked. if you have two wires under the screw it's ok. now you may say that maybe i might be over tightening the screw. nope. if you have ever put a number twelve wire under that clamp and then start moving the wires around to get it to fit in the box you might find that tightening the screw just a little less tight so that not to strip it out the wire starts to move under the clamp and becomes loose then the outlet gets installed and the same thing happens. the side mount is not a cheap design. it works well. also when this happens to the clamp type it can blow a arc fault breaker and send you loopy trying to find why the arc fault is tripping.

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So, you should get rid of the pigtails and use through wiring under the same screw with back-wire receptacles?

brian89gp said:

So, you should get rid of the pigtails and use through wiring under the same screw with back-wire receptacles?

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No. If you have the room in the box leave the pig tails. And if you are using back wire type put two wires under one clamp if possible one in the top and one in the bottom hole same screw. It will keep the screw level for a tight fit without stripping out the scew

Im not an electrician, im an engineer who can get extremely obsessed with doing it the right way, or the best way. Ive been in my first home for 6 years, and the first thing i did was buy an electric code book, full version. I dont do anything without verifying that and doing some research online with electrical forums.

Now to the crux. The most reliable and safest in my eyes is curling the ends around the screw, and pigtailing if its a high amperage circuit. Curling the ends isnt much time over a few circuits every once in a while. Now if i was a professional, i may have to find a faster but still safe way which looks like theres a few options in here.

everyone is making very valid points here, but I see one common denominator on most of the examples


HUMAN ERROR

ironpony said:

everyone is making very valid points here, but I see one common denominator on most of the examples


HUMAN ERROR

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agree. even the best way of doing something someone can screw up. i guess it's part of life.