Stuffing Wire wool up yer secondary intake!?

Agreed. I was making the assumption that we are talking about the atypical over drafting install.

kumastoves said:

I agree that adding a damper is essentially modifying the stove too.

However, a damper in the pipe is still widely accepted as normal by most stove users. In fact, a very common question that we get from prospective buyers is "do I need a damper in the pipe".

On the other hand, no one has ever asked if they will need to add some foil tape to their new stove.

The damper is familiar to most, while asking a user to slap foil tape on an intake seems a bit like saying that we made the stove wrong.

Jason

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Restricting air flow, weather on the intake or exhaust side is essentially accomplishing the same goal. Correcting an overdraft issue. Not sure how telling customers to do it on the exhaust side would be correct but on the intake would be some sort of admission that the stove is flawed.

There will be overdraft issues in the real world and just my opinion, if it can be corrected with something as cheap and easy as a magnet, that's a better choice than a pipe damper but I must admit I just don't like using a pipe damper.

Just to make a point, my over drafting 3.4 enerzone had a total of 10' or so of class venting in a 3 season room. 5' from stove to ceiling, 6" thru ceiling and about 4' or so outside. When I noticed that the stove would just rip with seasoned wood, I checked the gaskets (brand new stove) Thing passed with flying colors. The primary air control worked by a 28 ga or so piece of sheet metal sliding over holes in the stove body. Tightened those screws down to where I could just about adjust the slide. Even with the slide (primary) closed all the way, on a 3.4 CF firebox stuffed full I was still only getting 6 hours or so (if I recall) With a short vent system< I would dare say that this issue has come up for more dealers aside from ours. I sold a handful of the stoves. All but one (basement install in unlined 8x8 tile chimney) required the secondary to be modified.

tarzan said:

Restricting air flow, weather on the intake or exhaust side is essentially accomplishing the same goal. Correcting an overdraft issue. Not sure how telling customers to do it on the exhaust side would be correct but on the intake would be some sort of admission that the stove is flawed.

There will be overdraft issues in the real world and just my opinion, if it can be corrected with something as cheap and easy as a magnet, that's a better choice than a pipe damper but I must admit I just don't like using a pipe damper.

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It boils down to perception of the stove owner. For the discerning folks who frequent this forum, hearing a manufacturer say to block off an air opening in the stove makes sense. However, to a new stove owner, who has less understanding of the way the air intake affects the stove, it will just sound like redneck engineering.

tarzan said:

Restricting air flow, weather on the intake or exhaust side is essentially accomplishing the same goal. Correcting an overdraft issue. Not sure how telling customers to do it on the exhaust side would be correct but on the intake would be some sort of admission that the stove is flawed.

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Overdraft is a system issue. Once the maker of a stove opens up the possibility that one can change the stove, rather than other aspects of the system, the maker opens itself up to blame (whether deserved or not) for any and all system issues. It further opens open the possibility of any number of stove modifications, many of which might have potential for damage to the stove (or chimney, or house).

It is logical for the stove maker to say DO NOT MODIFY THE STOVE since it cannot realistically suggest modifications that would apply to every stove owner. Modify the stove and you void the warranty is a smart CYA position to take.

Fsappo said:

I wonder what the down side would be to having adjustable secondary air, without the consumer having the ability to close it off more than X%.

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Three letters: E... P... A.

The EPA should stuff wool in their intake!

Just teasing, I love those guys

kumastoves said:

It boils down to perception of the stove owner. For the discerning folks who frequent this forum, hearing a manufacturer say to block off an air opening in the stove makes sense. However, to a new stove owner, who has less understanding of the way the air intake affects the stove, it will just sound like redneck engineering.

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I get it your point. Perhaps, as I think Fsappo suggested, allow some level of adjustment on the secondary. Not like a draft knob that is adjusted with every fire but a set it and leave it adjustment with directions and an emphasis on the fact that likely no adjustment will be necessary. . I know that complicates things on the user end but many will never require any adjustment, the ones that do could possibly be guided through the procedure within a few minutes over the phone and save them from having to install a damper over a modern, efficient stove.

Just thinking out loud as a stove owner. Would like to here your thoughts.

branchburner said:

Three letters: E... P... A.

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Guess I got my answer before I was done writing my question.

Fsappo said:

If in any more than a handful of cases a customer needs to install a damper or tape off an air supply, those cases also being instances where the stove is installed and vented according to the manufacturers specs, then in my opinion, a stove is made wrong.

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Consider also the other variable in the stove/flue system that affects draft: the weather. So you are not dealing with a fixed/closed system. The variation in outdoor temps, winds and atmospheric pressure is not something that could easily be accounted for in an owner's manual giving directions on how to adjust the secondary air input.

I think the only good answer is a smart stove, that has the ability to constantly adjust air flow by having real-time inputs (stove temp, flue temp, draft measurement, etc.) at every stage of the burn cycle.

But aluminum foil and magnets will always be cheaper.

branchburner said:

Consider also the other variable in the stove/flue system that affects draft: the weather. So you are not dealing with a fixed/closed system. The variation in outdoor temps, winds and atmospheric pressure is not something that could easily be accounted for in an owner's manual giving directions on how to adjust the secondary air input.

I think the only good answer is a smart stove, that has the ability to constantly adjust air flow by having real-time inputs (stove temp, flue temp, draft measurement, etc.) at every stage of the burn cycle.


But aluminum foil and magnets will always be cheaper.

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The variations you mentioned IS the reason I asked about a built in adjustment of the secondary inlet. My thoughts is there is no way a fixed secondary can be optimal for every situation and controlling an overdrafting stove from the intake is better than a damper in the pipe. Not talking about something to constantly be fiddled with (but I suppose many would) just something to control a real and consistent problem.

But I get the whole liability, epa thing. Just thinking out loud I suppose. Good to get thoughts and facts on the subject though.

well i've got my magnets ready if needed. stove is getting picked up tomororow and installed

FionaD said:

So what's the difference between the flue dampers that some woodstoves have and barometric dampers? Don't the latter have some sort of automatic action that is dictated by the weather, atmospheric conditions, etc? If that's the case why can't woodstoves utilise them too?

I had never thought of aluminium foil.... Gee whiz - and I went and spent £15 on bits of steel, nUts and bolts...

For me at the moment, the appeal of a damper against a secondary intake mod is the relative ease - as things stand, when the wind gets up, I am crawling into an awkward space behind a 600deg stove and reaching into a tiny gap between the rear of the stove and the rear heat sheild to fix a little pice of metal into a hard to reach impossible to see hole. Flicking a damper this way or that, depending on how strong the wind is from hour to hour starts to look appealing...

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Correct me if I'm wrong ... but I think the main problem with barometric dampers is how they introduce cool room air into the chimney system, which could force gasses to condense into creosote that otherwise might not have without the baro damper. It's not such a problem for gas/oil/hard coal/etc. whose flue gas condensates aren't as flammable I think.

Fsappo said:

The EPA should stuff wool in their intake!

Just teasing, I love those guys

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Good save . . . just in case Homeland Security is monitoring our site, right?

I thought about putting on a flue damper . . . then I realized that . . .

a) in a typical year I only have a stove starting to run away maybe two to five times
b) a small piece of aluminum foil is pretty darned cheap

I have used a flat fridge magnet on two occasions to settle the stove down. Shortly after putting the magnet on (totally closing it off), the temps settled and lowered some. The magnet is 4" x 2.5" flat fridge magnet with the advertisement taken off of the one side.
Definitely a quick, easy and cheap way to slow things down. I just take it off further along in the burn cycle. Takes a second. So much easier than a pipe damper in my opinion.

kumastoves said:

It boils down to perception of the stove owner. For the discerning folks who frequent this forum, hearing a manufacturer say to block off an air opening in the stove makes sense. However, to a new stove owner, who has less understanding of the way the air intake affects the stove, it will just sound like redneck engineering.

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This could be solved with a paragraph or two; "the draft from the chimney is what powers the stove. This stove was designed to operate on the draft provided by a 15' tall chimney at sea level. Taller chimneys provide greater draft, which may require the installer to adjust the secondary opening. See table below for setting the opening by chimney height/elevation"

Sorry, not a very great pic.. stove is running about 599F right now.. 'tis a bit hard to be this close to it.. But this is what we did to calm things down. There is one on each side, secondary intakes closed about 80% I would say. Just some 18g stainless bent and a neodymium magnet.. benn on there for years..