RE: Still think all chimney fires are no big deal?

firefighterjake · Feb 18, 2015

Not saying that all chimney fires lead to total destruction . . . far from it in most cases. But over the years I have heard some folks claim that chimney fires are a) not that big a deal or b) normal and expected.

For some reason (well actually I am guessing it is a combination of the very cold month of February and lots of snow keeping folks from getting to their chimney to clean them) we've had a rash of pretty bad chimney fires here in Maine lately.

http://bangordailynews.com/2015/02/18/news/aroostook/morning-fire-destroys-home-in-van-buren/

http://bangordailynews.com/2015/02/...ges-home-of-burts-bees-co-founder-in-parkman/

http://bangordailynews.com/2015/02/...-extinguish-stubborn-house-fire-in-swanville/

Bobbin · Feb 18, 2015

I know several people locally who twit me about how "fussy" I am about the stoves. One of the people who "never cleans the chimney" is on the fire dep't.! Suffice it to say, I'm waaayy too chicken to not clean the chimney regularly; too much riding on what is, to me, a no brainer. And we paid too much money for the stoves to "overlook" the need for clean, dry firewood... if you want them to perform properly you have to feed them properly and maintain them properly!

rudysmallfry · Feb 18, 2015

I'm waiting to see my neighbor on the chimney fire news. Idiots burning 3 month old split green wood in a fireplace. The people aren't even bright enough to shovel their sidewalk, so I don't have a warm fuzzy about their fire responsibility. I just hope my roof doesn't catch when it happens. We're only 20' apart at most.

Oldman47 · Feb 18, 2015

I still remember driving home from my grandparents place to my home as a kid. It was only 80 miles but on every trip I would see what looked like a fireplace standing in an open field. Those were the remnants of people's homes who paid no attention to fire safety. Do not become one of those memories for the next generation.

Highbeam · Feb 18, 2015

Oldman47 said:
I still remember driving home from my grandparents place to my home as a kid. It was only 80 miles but on every trip I would see what looked like a fireplace standing in an open field. Those were the remnants of people's homes who paid no attention to fire safety. Do not become one of those memories for the next generation.

You really think that those were all from chimney fires? We see that scene a lot after forest fires sweep through.

Bobbin · Feb 18, 2015

I do a lot of work in conjunction with interior design. I routinely see things that make me blanche when it comes to fire and general safety with respect to wood burning. Everyone who builds a house wants a fireplace, "heart of the house", etc.. Some who have old(er) homes (usually with poor insulation) think a wood stove is going to make their lives cozier. And that can be true, as we all know. But some of what I see inside the homes of many people gives me pause. I routinely see old stoves set up on one layer of bricks over hardwood floors. Stoves are installed way too close to a fireplace mantel, I rarely see a screen in front of an open fireplace. I see firewood stored within a foot of a stove or too close a fireplace (usually the one with no screen). I see bubbled paint or (worse) scorch marks on mantels because the fireplace has gotten out of control or the stove has been installed with no thought to how hot the damn thing can get! And this is only the tip of the iceberg... this is nothing compared to what's going on inside the flue... weak mortar that's 100+ yrs. old, "balloon construction"/no firebreaks between floors, etc.. I know that nearly no one sets out to willfully violate regulations/recommendations. What really astounds me is how little conception/respect people have for fire! They're not stupid, they simply don't know. I think about this a lot; burning wood/coal has basically gone the way of dinosaur (along with oil lamps). The most basic and simple protocols have not been taught because their need has been superceded by different technologies and the result can be tragic.

I regularly say that I'm sometimes amazed at how "casual" we are with respect to a 1100 fire inside a soapstone box INSIDE OUR HOME. But after we plunked down our hard earned savings for our stove and we made the effort to install it correctly (and calm the insurance carrier!) it quickly became clear that having a wood stove and operating it properly was a serious responsibility. I'm good with that, being responsible and careful are things I feel are important!

TreePapa · Feb 18, 2015

Chimney fire cost me (okay, my insurance company) a bit over $ 10 grand a few years ago. That included replacing the chimney from the smoke chamber up w/ Class A manufactured chimney and a nice upgrade of the interior facade using face brick, also face brick on the few feet of chimney that comes up from the roof. Also included permits and inspections. Without the upgrades, it still would have been about $7,500. The old chimney was also manufactured chimney, installed after '94 earthquake, and also permitted. But there were a lot of chimneys being replaced in those days and the '94 contractor got away with some pretty shabby work. The new work is nice.

We got off EASY. No one was hurt and there was no damage to the rest of the house, only the chimney. Even the chimney damage didn't seem too bad to the untrained eye, but it made the fireplace unsafe to use. We couldn't use the fireplace until it was fixed - about 6 or 8 months all told. But we got off really easy. I burn only WELL SEASONED wood now - 15% or less preferred. I don't burn pine any more except for one or two small pieces of fat wood with the kindling now and then - not often. And no more eucalyptus (lots of volatile oils in that wood). Y'all with the cats or secondary burners can burn off the extra creosote, but in a fireplace, I'll pass now, thanks. No throwing a big armful of twigs on the fire at once either (that was the immediate trigger of the chimney fire). And we get the chimney swept every year. I worry a bit about the smoke chamber, but they do the best they can.

F4jock · Feb 18, 2015

In my days as a Lieutenant in the fire department I saw homes destroyed by chimney fires and poor installs. They are no joke nor are they to be taken lightly.

firefighterjake · Feb 18, 2015

rudysmallfry said:
I'm waiting to see my neighbor on the chimney fire news. Idiots burning 3 month old split green wood in a fireplace. The people aren't even bright enough to shovel their sidewalk, so I don't have a warm fuzzy about their fire responsibility. I just hope my roof doesn't catch when it happens. We're only 20' apart at most.

Sounds a lot like these folks . . . who had to be rescued recently when they had a fire in their home . . . and the usual way out was blocked by fire . . . the other exit was blocked by snow since they had not bothered to remove the snow. Sometimes I just shake my head at folks and wonder how we as a species have managed to survive and procreate.

http://wabi.tv/2015/02/18/brewer-garage-that-caught-fire-tuesday-rekindles/

F4jock · Feb 18, 2015

firefighterjake said:
Sounds a lot like these folks . . . who had to be rescued recently when they had a fire in their home . . . and the usual way out was blocked by fire . . . the other exit was blocked by snow since they had not bothered to remove the snow. Sometimes I just shake my head at folks and wonder how we as a species have managed to survive and procreate.

http://wabi.tv/2015/02/18/brewer-garage-that-caught-fire-tuesday-rekindles/

To paraphrase the old Jello ad . . . . . "There's always room for Darwin!"

Typ0 · Feb 18, 2015

Bobbin said:
I do a lot of work in conjunction with interior design. I routinely see things that make me blanche when it comes to fire and general safety with respect to wood burning. Everyone who builds a house wants a fireplace, "heart of the house", etc.. Some who have old(er) homes (usually with poor insulation) think a wood stove is going to make their lives cozier. And that can be true, as we all know. But some of what I see inside the homes of many people gives me pause. I routinely see old stoves set up on one layer of bricks over hardwood floors. Stoves are installed way too close to a fireplace mantel, I rarely see a screen in front of an open fireplace. I see firewood stored within a foot of a stove or too close a fireplace (usually the one with no screen). I see bubbled paint or (worse) scorch marks on mantels because the fireplace has gotten out of control or the stove has been installed with no thought to how hot the damn thing can get! And this is only the tip of the iceberg... this is nothing compared to what's going on inside the flue... weak mortar that's 100+ yrs. old, "balloon construction"/no firebreaks between floors, etc.. I know that nearly no one sets out to willfully violate regulations/recommendations. What really astounds me is how little conception/respect people have for fire! They're not stupid, they simply don't know. I think about this a lot; burning wood/coal has basically gone the way of dinosaur (along with oil lamps). The most basic and simple protocols have not been taught because their need has been superceded by different technologies and the result can be tragic.

I regularly say that I'm sometimes amazed at how "casual" we are with respect to a 1100 fire inside a soapstone box INSIDE OUR HOME. But after we plunked down our hard earned savings for our stove and we made the effort to install it correctly (and calm the insurance carrier!) it quickly became clear that having a wood stove and operating it properly was a serious responsibility. I'm good with that, being responsible and careful are things I feel are important!

RIght now I have some wood within a foot of my stove. I don't really understand the problem other than an ember could fall on it and smolder there eventually starting a fire. But it's on my hearth and if a log went up it's not going to spread. I probably am being ignorant about this issue but the code clearance requirements are for completely different issues than a log being staged to get loaded into the stove they are for the things that aren't supposed to burn around the stove!

firefighterjake · Feb 19, 2015

Typ0 said:
RIght now I have some wood within a foot of my stove. I don't really understand the problem other than an ember could fall on it and smolder there eventually starting a fire. But it's on my hearth and if a log went up it's not going to spread. I probably am being ignorant about this issue but the code clearance requirements are for completely different issues than a log being staged to get loaded into the stove they are for the things that aren't supposed to burn around the stove!

Not saying it would happen . . . but if the wood did catch on fire . . . even being completely on the hearth . . . there is a chance that the snapping, crackling and popping action of the wood could throw an ember even further away from something that could catch on fire . . . and there is also the possibility of the heat generated by that small fire reaching a high enough temp (ignition temp) to ignite any combustibles close enough to the fire.

Folks often forget that it the ignition source does not necessary have to be in direct contact with the fuel -- a clear example of this would be a match igniting the vapors from a pool of gas . . . or lighting a candle, putting it out and then lighting a match an inch or so away from the wick and seeing it reignite.

Again . . . not saying it would definitely happen . . . and I suspect you may be right . . . I've seen folks put stuff like cardboard, newspapers . . . even a chainsaw full of gas . . . pretty close to their woodstove. My feeling though . . . I prefer to err on the side of caution and keep all combustibles at the proper distance from the stove.

Typ0 · Feb 19, 2015

firefighterjake said:
Not saying it would happen . . . but if the wood did catch on fire . . . even being completely on the hearth . . . there is a chance that the snapping, crackling and popping action of the wood could throw an ember even further away from something that could catch on fire . . . and there is also the possibility of the heat generated by that small fire reaching a high enough temp (ignition temp) to ignite any combustibles close enough to the fire.

Folks often forget that it the ignition source does not necessary have to be in direct contact with the fuel -- a clear example of this would be a match igniting the vapors from a pool of gas . . . or lighting a candle, putting it out and then lighting a match an inch or so away from the wick and seeing it reignite.

Again . . . not saying it would definitely happen . . . and I suspect you may be right . . . I've seen folks put stuff like cardboard, newspapers . . . even a chainsaw full of gas . . . pretty close to their woodstove. My feeling though . . . I prefer to err on the side of caution and keep all combustibles at the proper distance from the stove.

I agree on it being a questionable practice. The more you leave wood there the more you are going to increase the likelihood of having a problem. As far as the rest of the stuff you said....well it's OK I won't be going to the garage and getting the gas can to test it all out...anyone that has gasoline anywhere within the distance a flying ember can hit it is a complete idiot imo. And the other examples you stated are not really correct....the ignition source does have direct contact with the fuel. The fuel is in a gascious state not something you can touch is the difference.

Woody Stover · Feb 19, 2015

Typ0 said:
RIght now I have some wood within a foot of my stove. I don't really understand the problem other than an ember could fall on it and smolder there eventually starting a fire. But it's on my hearth and if a log went up it's not going to spread. I probably am being ignorant about this issue but the code clearance requirements are for completely different issues than a log being staged to get loaded into the stove they are for the things that aren't supposed to burn around the stove!

It certainly can spread, as Jake pointed out. "Clearance to combustibles" means any combustible, log on the hearth included. Sure, under normal conditions probably nothing will happen. But what about if your stove overfires for whatever reason; That's why they set the clearances where they do.

Typ0 · Feb 19, 2015

I very much disagree. You are combustible. According to your model you are not able to load your stove! The clearances are set such that combustible materials that you CANNOT SEE (ie. stuff inside a wall) cannot change composition and break down due to heat and, over time, become a serious fire hazzard. This is what the real issue being addressed is. If there is a problem with your wall you could see it....but a board in a wall is a different story. So mounting hardyboard onto a 2x4 that become charcoal over a 25 year period is the practice the code seeks to stop. Just imagine how flammable those sleeves are that are going into the stove on loads !!!

You can't tell me a split being staged for the stove sitting on the hearth is more dangerous than your clothing.

Typ0 · Feb 19, 2015

FYI I ripped a whole wall out of my house to put my stove in....there is NOTHING near it!

Woody Stover · Feb 19, 2015

Typ0 said:
You are combustible. According to your model you are not able to load your stove!

I'm pretty sure that I'm not doing anything contrary to NFPA 211 by loading my stove. If you can dig up the stats on how many people died loading their stoves, I'd like to see those. ;lol

The clearances are set such that combustible materials that you CANNOT SEE (ie. stuff inside a wall) cannot change composition and break down due to heat and, over time, become a serious fire hazzard. This is what the real issue being addressed is. If there is a problem with your wall you could see it....but a board in a wall is a different story. So mounting hardyboard onto a 2x4 that become charcoal over a 25 year period is the practice the code seeks to stop.

The clearances are meant to address a variety of issues, be it a 2x4 buried in a wall, or wood left 1' from the stove. My point, which I may not have conveyed clearly, is that the clearances are set with worst-case scenarios in mind. Now, if you want to set yourself up as an expert who's qualified to interpret the reasoning for the clearances set by the lab and manufacturer, and prioritize them, just do it light of your original statement. ==c

Typ0 said:
RIght now I have some wood within a foot of my stove. I don't really understand the problem other than an ember could fall on it.....I probably am being ignorant about this issue but the code clearance requirements are for completely different issues

You can't tell me a split being staged for the stove sitting on the hearth is more dangerous than your clothing.

Sure I can; If your sleeve catches fire, you are right there to take action to avert the threat. If you're at the grocery store and your stove overfires and ignites wood left too close to the stove, you are not going to know about it until you come back to find your home a pile of ashes (and hopefully not your sleeping family as well.)

Typ0 said:
FYI I ripped a whole wall out of my house to put my stove in....there is NOTHING near it!

Except the wood you piled a foot away. ;lol

begreen · Feb 19, 2015

This thread is getting derailed. It's about chimney fires, a real danger during very cold weather when the systems are being pushed hard. This is why we advocate strongly for putting in a stainless steel liner for all stove and insert installs. It is cheap insurance vs taking the risk of a chimney fire.

BrotherBart · Feb 19, 2015

"This publication, using National Fire Prevention Association (NFPA) standards, describes proper installation of radiant-type wood-burning room heaters in residential homes."

"Other combustible materials such as firewood, paper, curtains, and plastics should be kept at least 36 inches from the stove."

Woody Stover · Feb 19, 2015

begreen said:
This thread is getting derailed. It's about chimney fires, a real danger during very cold weather when the systems are being pushed hard. This is why we advocate strongly for putting in a stainless steel liner

And why we preach dry wood. Now, there's a guy here that's burned his house down once already, and from what I can see he is still burning wet Oak. Maybe he's just brushing his chimney more often. :confused:

Ya can't always get up there to brush your chimney, though....

BrotherBart said:
"This publication, using National Fire Prevention Association (NFPA) standards, describes proper installation of radiant-type wood-burning room heaters in residential homes."
"Other combustible materials such as firewood, paper, curtains, and plastics should be kept at least 36 inches from the stove."

I'm hoping that's for uncertified appliances, or I'm not even close.

F4jock · Feb 19, 2015

begreen said:
This thread is getting derailed. It's about chimney fires, a real danger during very cold weather when the systems are being pushed hard. This is why we advocate strongly for putting in a stainless steel liner for all stove and insert installs. It is cheap insurance vs taking the risk of a chimney fire.

Give us a break Green! Hearth fires and combustibles are a natural outgrowth of such a discussion. Remove the poker please?

firefighterjake · Feb 19, 2015

Typ0 said:
I agree on it being a questionable practice. The more you leave wood there the more you are going to increase the likelihood of having a problem. As far as the rest of the stuff you said....well it's OK I won't be going to the garage and getting the gas can to test it all out...anyone that has gasoline anywhere within the distance a flying ember can hit it is a complete idiot imo. And the other examples you stated are not really correct....the ignition source does have direct contact with the fuel. The fuel is in a gascious state not something you can touch is the difference.

Good point.

eclecticcottage · Feb 19, 2015

Bobbin said:
I routinely see old stoves set up on one layer of bricks over hardwood floors. Stoves are installed way too close to a fireplace mantel, I rarely see a screen in front of an open fireplace.

I've posted photos before of the Fisher that was here when we bought the place. Even before I knew the clearances I knew it was wrong-but after, it was down right scary! We never used it, but the PO did. It was a corner install, and the actual rear corners of the stove were in the mortar between the stones that made up the surround. The surround was built of 2x4's covered in durarock then stones were laid on it. So basically, the corners of the stove had a piece of durarock separating them from the wood framing (which was then attached to the wall, covered in knotty pine). I never figured out for sure but I think it was a Grandpa Bear.

DougA · Feb 23, 2015

BrotherBart said:
"Other combustible materials such as firewood, paper, curtains, and plastics should be kept at least 36 inches from the stove."

When we had our first inspection years ago, there was a swivel easy chair that was 2' away from the side of the stove. He measured the distance and said it was too close to allow him to pass. I swiveled it around and it was 3' away and passed. We had an ottoman for the chair parked a little close one night (about a foot away to warm my feet) and the next morning the corner of the beige ottoman was dark brown from being scorched. Now nothing gets closer than 3' - lesson learned.

The 4 page questionnaire from the insurance company I filled out last month had 2 specific questions about proximity of combustibles. One was how close the nearest combustible was and the other was how close the wood was to the stove. My closest wood is 6' and closest combustible is 11" (code for my stove is 6")

Flamestead · Feb 23, 2015

A local paper had a story about someone who was reasonably lucky. The paper noted it was at least the 4th within a week in their area.
http://www.vnews.com/news/townbytow...ndsor-home-saved-from-wood-stove-chimney-fire

This fifth one, a little to the east, had a fatality.
http://www.unionleader.com/article/20150220/NEWS07/150218916

Recently my wife caught me looking off to the distance as I was walking outside, and asked what I was thinking. I noted it was the exact same type of day as when a house burned just past the treeline. Not 30 minutes later, in the opposite direction, we saw smoke that we thought was the town's OWB, or at least until the fire trucks from neighboring towns came rolling by. That was a trailer home that was a total loss (likely related to thawing waterlines, and not wood burning).

RE: Still think all chimney fires are no big deal?

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