BK Ashford smoke smell issue low draft theory

Calentarse · Feb 23, 2015

Hey guys. Had my Ashford since November. Wood is below 20% on the MM fresh splits. 16-18% on the outsides. 15' total rise centrally located in house. Rises 4' above peak of rancher. Out of stove, I got 39" before 2 45s, single wall in house, double wall the rest of the way straight up.

In mild winter area, average low single digits. Normal high in winter upper 30s. Thought the BK was right for me, PERFECT heat output. Was thinking increased draft was all I needed. If that is the case, why is my stove burning wonderfully hot with my current set up, stat set on 2.25, cat happy as a clam and I'm STILL getting the sweet, Carolina BBQ smoke smell rolling off the top, front of my stove. Chimney was just cleaned. Didn't even get a half gallon of black creosote from 3 months of burning. I do get some smoke spillage on hot reloads.

So frustrating...

begreen · Feb 23, 2015

If the theory is low draft, add some pipe.

drz1050 · Feb 23, 2015

If you take the cast top off, any luck in pinpointing where its coming from?

I've read that some of the welds are sloppy on the flue collar.. have you checked that?

Door/ bypass gasket good all around?

Cat probe?

Highbeam · Feb 23, 2015

Over 500 on the outside of single wall is much too hot. That corresponds with 1000 degree flue gas temps. Compare that with 400 degree temps for me even with a cat probe much higher.

A half gallon of creo after three months seems high too.

alforit · Feb 24, 2015

I was getting the smoke smell on my Ashford and also when I had the Chinook 30.,

I could smell it coming from the top corners of the door . I tried many things to solve it. Because I thought It was the door gasket I tried many different gaskets to help with the smell. It seemed to work temporarily. And then after a week or so the smell would return. I also tried tightening the door and that was only temporary also,

So I kind of gave up .

I figured maybe that was just the way it was with a BK on a low burn...
It wasn't too bad but enough to notice if you were close to the stove . And the smell was the strongest on low burns. And also on wood that isn't ideal.

So last year I decided to seal my stove pipe on my Ashford after hearing about a new flexible stove vent sealant . I wanted to improve my burn times and wood combustion that I experienced a couple years ago when I sealed my pipe on my Lennox non cat stove . So I tried it on my Ashford and It definitely helped my draft and burn times and wood combustion. ......And as an unexpected benefit , the smoke smell disappeared that I thought was coming from the door of the stove. At first I thought it was a coincidence, but after about a week I realized it was possibly fixed.

It has been about 4 months and still no smoke smell .. .... I just cleaned my stove pipe and chimney pipe a couple weeks ago and resealed the stove pipe. It was pretty easy to take apart and clean off and reseal the pipe........I only seal in three places. At the top where the stove pipe terminates the ceiling adapter, and where the stove pipe meets the flue adapter and then where the flue adapter terminates into the stove flue. That last one I think is the most important one to seal and the one I think has made the most difference.

I have been able to burn my stove at the lowest possible setting and on warmer days and still no smoke smell.......I am thrilled about it to be honest ==c

, Plus I have been getting way longer burn times.(As if the BK needs it

),

Every set up is different so what works for one person may not work for another .But I would think its worth trying especially if you have tried and exhausted all other recommended fixes first.

Charles1981 · Feb 24, 2015

Add more chimney... as much as feasible imo. 3-6 feet more. There may be more going on but I think this is a big first step

Charles1981 · Feb 24, 2015

And the two 45 angles may be contributing as well.

webby3650 · Feb 24, 2015

Charles1981 said:
And the two 45 angles may be contributing as well.

45's effected mine. I removed the elbows and that helped. Later I moved my Ashford to my front room that has an 8" chimney. The stove works much better, I didn't really even known I had any issues until I improved the draft.

webby3650 · Feb 24, 2015

The only time I ever notice this smell is when I'm running it too low, too soon. I also notice that the people that are complaining of this smell have filthy glass in the pictures they post. My glass has never been as dirty as it is in these pics I keep seeing. I also have a ranch home with nearly minimum height chimneys.

I'm very surprised that you are having such a rough time with the stove, but aren't willing to install it with double wall pipe like is recommended. It might not fix the issue completely, but installing like the manufacturer recommends is the first place to start.

Calentarse · Feb 24, 2015

Lots of great information here guys. To be honest, in my mind, the only options that seem logical would be door gasket and the flue collar/pipe stuff.

This post was to RULE OUT draft. Everyone wants me to increase it (which is expensive and not an option for me If it isn't a promising recourse). Can we agree I had adequate draft in the stove when these photos were taken? If so, why was I still smelling smoke? What will increased draft do for me if I still have the smell when draft is kicking?

I'll reply to your individual questions a little later. I know I haven't answered them all. FYI All visible welds look great, probe hole emits no odor to my nose with top off, no smoke is visible, more of a fume smell anyhow. Stove pipe connector seems sealed and not the issue.

webby3650 · Feb 24, 2015

Needing good draft isn't a theory. BK puts tons of money into testing their stoves, I assume they recommend double wall pipe for a reason. You might have decent draft? But If it smokes when you reload, and you smell smoke while is running, those both point to bad draft. Smoke doesn't leak if you have good draft, rather air is pulled in. I've never installed an Ashford with single wall pipe, so I can't say it will fix the issue for sure.

Why did your installer use single wall in the first place?

Calentarse · Feb 24, 2015

webby3650 said:
Needing good draft isn't a theory. BK puts tons of money into testing their stoves, I assume they recommend double wall pipe for a reason. You might have decent draft? But If it smokes when you reload, and you smell smoke while is running, those both point to bad draft. Smoke doesn't leak if you have good draft, rather air is pulled in. I've never installed an Ashford with single wall pipe, so I can't say it will fix the issue for sure.

Why did your installer use single wall in the first place?

Agreed, need to just bite the bullet and get double wall installed either way. All of that makes sense to me. I suppose the stove can still get hot with poor draft, huh? It doesn't explain why the smoke is leaking out, though. If it's leaking out when the draft is pulling hard, single wall or double, something else is causing this problem. That's what I'm hung up on.

The installers of my original stove (VC Encore) were trying to get the costs down since I was installing EVERYTHING from scratch and looking at $5000. They said single wall wouldn't hurt anything and was significantly cheaper. Plus, it would also emit heat that would otherwise go up the chimney. Maybe this is why they are out of the wood stove business altogether now. Little did I know I DEFINITELY did not need the heat when you have a radiant, uncontrollable, cracked cast-iron wood stove. I had the pipe inspected by my chimney guy and left it in place. Modified it for the height difference for the new BK and I was back in business in November...

Calentarse · Feb 24, 2015

webby3650 said:
have filthy glass in the pictures they post

I will say that when I run it above the normal range for 24+ hours, my glass burns all that black off. Originally, in November and December I wrote a post about my ongoing smoke smell problems and the dirty glass. When January and February rolled around, I occasionally need to open the stove up to above 2.25. This past week, we had a night in the negatives and I had to leave it on 3 all night. TSTAT did AWESOME keeping everything within check but giving all the heat the stove could safely emit. Simply amazing. I can tell you that there was not a single trace of black on that glass after burning like this. With more mild temps around now, it's back to the dragon eyes...

Calentarse · Feb 24, 2015

Highbeam said:
Over 500 on the outside of single wall is much too hot. That corresponds with 1000 degree flue gas temps. Compare that with 400 degree temps for me even with a cat probe much higher.

A half gallon of creo after three months seems high too.

This was about 1 hour after a reload, all seasoned oak and pine with the stove on 2.5. I had it turned up because house was a little cold and we were anticipating single digits for once last night. This doesn't make sense. If I put my hand on the pipe up by the ceiling, it isn't scortching hot. I'm thinking that gauge on the pipe is picking up temps from the stove below...? Should I try to move it up and repost? Because there should be no reason my flue is 1000 degrees inside with the cat engaged and the tstat on 2.5 unless something is wrong, right?

I thought the half gallon was a little much. Is my cat not working properly or is it because on reloads, I tend to char everything for a good 15-20 minutes to build up good draft before shutting it down? Is this to blame? I wouldn't think so since the stove is hot when I reload and flue should be warm enough to prevent creosote.

Calentarse · Feb 24, 2015

Charles1981 said:
And the two 45 angles may be contributing as well.

I can't get rid of the 45s without bringing the stove way out into the room. When the installers did it, they had the old VC clearances to work with (also needed to avoid air handler above) and now that I only need to be 4 inches from the wall (corner install), it works great with the 45s for space...not so much for draft I'm learning

Calentarse · Feb 24, 2015

alforit said:
I was getting the smoke smell on my Ashford and also when I had the Chinook 30.,

I could smell it coming from the top corners of the door . I tried many things to solve it. Because I thought It was the door gasket I tried many different gaskets to help with the smell. It seemed to work temporarily. And then after a week or so the smell would return. I also tried tightening the door and that was only temporary also,

So I kind of gave up . I figured maybe that was just the way it was with a BK on a low burn...
It wasn't too bad but enough to notice if you were close to the stove . And the smell was the strongest on low burns. And also on wood that isn't ideal.

So last year I decided to seal my stove pipe on my Ashford after hearing about a new flexible stove vent sealant . I wanted to improve my burn times and wood combustion that I experienced a couple years ago when I sealed my pipe on my Lennox non cat stove . So I tried it on my Ashford and It definitely helped my draft and burn times and wood combustion. ......And as an unexpected benefit , the smoke smell disappeared that I thought was coming from the door of the stove. At first I thought it was a coincidence, but after about a week I realized it was possibly fixed.

It has been about 4 months and still no smoke smell .. .... I just cleaned my stove pipe and chimney pipe a couple weeks ago and resealed the stove pipe. It was pretty easy to take apart and clean off and reseal the pipe........I only seal in three places. At the top where the stove pipe terminates the ceiling adapter, and where the stove pipe meets the flue adapter and then where the flue adapter terminates into the stove flue. That last one I think is the most important one to seal and the one I think has made the most difference.

I have been able to burn my stove at the lowest possible setting and on warmer days and still no smoke smell.......I am thrilled about it to be honest
, Plus I have been getting way longer burn times.(As if the BK needs it ),

Every set up is different so what works for one person may not work for another .But I would think its worth trying especially if you have tried and exhausted all other recommended fixes first.

Why'd you get rid of your Chinook and Progress Hybrid?

What is the name of this sealant you speak of? Tell me, do you have double wall and what was your total chimney height?

Did you call BK at any point and inquire as to the problem? If so, what did they recommend?

Diabel · Feb 24, 2015

This is from my experience only.

If the smell you are smelling is the "sweet" smell then it is coming from past the cat (already burnt fumes).
But if you are smelling a typical wood smoke (like from a fire pit) then it is coming from the fire box.
There is a distinct difference in the smell. In the fall when I am doing yard work, I can often smell the sweet smell and without looking at the pipe I can tell the cat is doing its job. The minute I smell the typical wood smell I know the cat has stalled!!

Once in a while I will get that sweet smell from around the flue collar (it is not sealed perfectly), but it only happens a couple of times in the season.

Tenn Dave · Feb 24, 2015

I had a smoke smell problem with my early production model Progress Hybrid. My draft was great, but once I engaged the cat and turned the stove down to a low burn I would smell smoke near the stove. It turned out to be a design flaw in the loading door gasket, and some leakage around the door hinge channel due to chimney effect. Fortunately it was an easy fix with the repair kit the company sent me. It took Woodstock several months to trouble shoot the problem and solve it. They told me about 10% of the early model stoves had the issue. Obviously if all the stoves were manufactured the same way, there must have been some other variables which caused 10% of us early purchasers to have the smoke smell problem. Not sure what those variables were, but as long as the smoke smell problem is gone I am happy.

Tenn Dave · Feb 24, 2015

I agree with Webby that you should bring your stove installation in compliance with what BK recommends. If that still does not solve your problem, then you have to decide to live with it or swap out the stove. All manufacturers have some situations where their stoves do not function properly in some situations. Good luck and hang in there.

blueguy · Feb 24, 2015

Calentarse - does your door gasket have a flat gasket "wrap" joining the ends?

Highbeam · Feb 24, 2015

Calentarse said:
This was about 1 hour after a reload, all seasoned oak and pine with the stove on 2.5. I had it turned up because house was a little cold and we were anticipating single digits for once last night. This doesn't make sense. If I put my hand on the pipe up by the ceiling, it isn't scortching hot. I'm thinking that gauge on the pipe is picking up temps from the stove below...? Should I try to move it up and repost? Because there should be no reason my flue is 1000 degrees inside with the cat engaged and the tstat on 2.5 unless something is wrong, right?

I thought the half gallon was a little much. Is my cat not working properly or is it because on reloads, I tend to char everything for a good 15-20 minutes to build up good draft before shutting it down? Is this to blame? I wouldn't think so since the stove is hot when I reload and flue should be warm enough to prevent creosote.

The stove pipe thermometer is typically specified to be placed at 18" above the stove. 500+ is really high. What could cause that though? With the cat engaged I have never seen higher than 800 even on my full throttle for an hour burn out routine that BK recommended.

Creosote accumulation will be higher in a single wall system because the single wall pipe is cooled by the room temperature air. The double wall system does at least two big things for you, it reduces radiant heat transfer out to the room from the hot inner wall to improve clearance requirement and it also keeps that hot inner wall hotter which makes it way less likely to accumulate creosote. That heat in the flue is how the double wall improves draft.

Highbeam · Feb 24, 2015

Calentarse said:
Agreed, need to just bite the bullet and get double wall installed either way. All of that makes sense to me. I suppose the stove can still get hot with poor draft, huh?

A campfire has no draft but gets plenty hot and the smoke temperature above the campfire is really hot. You can't verify draft with a thermometer.

The level of vacuum inside the BK stove can really vary quite a bit due to the small intake opening which is much different than a mostly unregulated noncat stove. The BK will operate pretty well even with poor draft but these smoke spillage issues are far more likely.

I filled my house with smoke this morning trying to reload on a stove that was still 50% full. It had been burning on low since I reloaded 12 hours prior. No amount of heat/flame could get that flue sucking hard enough to keep the smoke in the stove. I learned my lesson.

Highbeam · Feb 24, 2015

alforit said:
So last year I decided to seal my stove pipe on my Ashford after hearing about a new flexible stove vent sealant . I wanted to improve my burn times and wood combustion that I experienced a couple years ago when I sealed my pipe on my Lennox non cat stove . So I tried it on my Ashford and It definitely helped my draft and burn times and wood combustion. ......And as an unexpected benefit , the smoke smell disappeared that I thought was coming from the door of the stove. At first I thought it was a coincidence, but after about a week I realized it was possibly fixed.

I am interested too. Every little bit helps and we all know that the flue collar is not the strong point on the BKs.

Poindexter · Feb 24, 2015

I had a little tiny bit of smoke smell intermittently on low burns early in the season.

I am on 13-14' of total stack, below freezing I am fine, below zero dF I am golden and below -30dF I am glad I don't have any more pipe on my stack. Mine is telescoping DW from stove collar to ceiling radiation shield, then class A all the way up, no elbows.

Ran mine pretty much wide open for the last several months.

I did change one thing though. I had a SW to DW SP adapter at the stove collar put in by the installer. The actual adapter piece is garbage, just sleazy scrap tin junk. I left it out last time I cleaned the stove and checked real careful that I still had clearance between the screws and the enamel, I lowered by telescoping DW flue pipe straight onto the stove collar.

Last night was the first time since maybe late October I have turned the thermostat down from 3/3 to 2/3, I got no smell.

begreen · Feb 24, 2015

Good news. What brand double-wall pipe is this?

How many cords are burned between chimney cleanings?

BK Ashford smoke smell issue low draft theory

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