The Bigger Picture on Energy Efficiency Upgrades
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regardless the citizens bamboozeled sold a bill of goods. another town not mine , just folks sold a bill of goods for their benefit, free electricity.Someone made money on that deal.
Did the politicos get re-elected?
jebatty
Minister of Fire
Amusing how we blame or credit things based on what the Govt does or does not do. Easy to forget that we live in a representative democracy. The Govt is us ... or it should be us, so Govt action is our action. Unless of course, someone/things/businesses/interests/money are controlling what Govt does more than "us" controlling Govt. And if that's the case, the blame falls again on "us" for letting that happen.
The simple fact is that "us" is very diverse and often not in agreement, that democracies are very messy, full of compromises, heavy costs and often poor results, give and take, etc. Amazingly, over time things have worked pretty well, sometimes better, sometimes worse. One real question is in the long run whether or not a large group of people, each person in the group pursuing his/her own self interest, in the end results in a satisfactory outcome for all of "us." I think the jury is still out on the answer to that verdict.
The simple fact is that "us" is very diverse and often not in agreement, that democracies are very messy, full of compromises, heavy costs and often poor results, give and take, etc. Amazingly, over time things have worked pretty well, sometimes better, sometimes worse. One real question is in the long run whether or not a large group of people, each person in the group pursuing his/her own self interest, in the end results in a satisfactory outcome for all of "us." I think the jury is still out on the answer to that verdict.
when over the course of years more of our daily lives come under the diction of the gov't, the more vocal on both sides of the question come under scrutiny, the louder each side gets.. what were once local discussions are now regional or national. they continue to get larger then even bigger than before. calif. had special rules for autos due to smog and industry now reach every rural area in America. maybe not the best example but it is the truth.(we all pay for calif. gas formulations) governmental proliferation.
with our size, the United States is a beacon to the world. Say what you will, we are above any European country or any where in the world. where we came from should tell us the direction to head towards.
with our size, the United States is a beacon to the world. Say what you will, we are above any European country or any where in the world. where we came from should tell us the direction to head towards.
off topic, in topic 2015 population wise the 5th highest hhd total, in last 30 yrs. not good for anybody in energy, producer, consumer or co2 worrier. more efficiency needed everywhere.
Babaganoosh
Minister of Fire
Not to get political but we are not a democracy. We are a constitutional republic. We the people rarely means we. It means the privileged few percent that make the laws that usually line their pockets at the taxpayers expense. Corporations are our government. Lobbying to get their ways at the general public's expense.
While cleaner air, cleaner water and less reliance on fossil fuels are all great they don't mandate these things out of the goodness of their hearts. It's to get votes or money.
While cleaner air, cleaner water and less reliance on fossil fuels are all great they don't mandate these things out of the goodness of their hearts. It's to get votes or money.
aarp is also a lobby? unions are lobbies! how many more should I list> colleges have theirs, ect ect. gov't 5" snow days at fed, state and local levels. just an example.
jebatty
Minister of Fire
These first two statements are true, but not what follows. Constitution means the powers of the govt are limited to those provided in the constitution as opposed to unlimited powers. Republic means that those entitled to vote elect representatives to be the government. So we are a democracy to the extent we elect representatives. To the extent that the privileged few may make the laws, or that corporation are the government, or that lobbyists get their ways only follows to the extent that the voters continue to elect representatives that allow this to happen.
And as to lobbyists, you and I are lobbyists to the extent we communicate with our elected representatives to seek their support on any issue or concern. That of course does not mean that lobbying by you or me has the same impact that lobbying by an organized group of whatever kind may have on the elected representatives. In general, lobbying by an organized group that has a perspective you or I may support often is considered proper lobbying and if not supported by you or me as improper lobbying. All gray area of various degrees. But I think many of us agree that the power of highly financed lobbying may have a level of influence on the elected representatives disproportionate to the will of those entitled to vote, but for whatever reason those entitled to vote choose to continue to elect those representatives to continue governing.
Babaganoosh
Minister of Fire
They might be lobbies but unless they have a lot of money to bribe, I mean lobby with it, it doesn't matter.
Babaganoosh
Minister of Fire
jebatty
Minister of Fire
There may be voter apathy but the government cannot be blamed. In short, if I vote and you do not, and the government does what I want, you have no complaint. And vice versa. Might a large part of the problem be the wide division of interests of those who vote? And the unwillingness of those who vote to elect representatives who will compromise to achieve mutually desirable outcomes?
insurance,aarp. union dues, how many members, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. how many$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ go to colleges?
semipro
Minister of Fire
I've thought about the original question a bit more and found my self admitting that I invest in efficiency upgrades just because I like to.
E.g., Every time I walk into our basement utility room and hear both the condensing dryer and the HPWH running I'm reassured that energy wasted by one is being used by the other to heat our water. I think that's cool. It makes me feel good.
I don't typically do ROI calculations and if I did it would only be because I enjoyed it. Lower costs are good but that's not my primary motivation.
My neighbors can't even see my house, we don't have guests over much, and when we do the subject of conversation isn't energy efficiency. Other than here they're not discussed or publicized. So I doubt peer review is much of a motivator.
I see efficiency of all types as a challenge that's worth my investment of resources -- and, I guess ultimately; a hobby.
Sort of like my veggie garden which I have yet to see a positive ROI on. Of course the deer, rabbits, and neighbors all benefit from that and so do I because I enjoy it.
E.g., Every time I walk into our basement utility room and hear both the condensing dryer and the HPWH running I'm reassured that energy wasted by one is being used by the other to heat our water. I think that's cool. It makes me feel good.
I don't typically do ROI calculations and if I did it would only be because I enjoyed it. Lower costs are good but that's not my primary motivation.
My neighbors can't even see my house, we don't have guests over much, and when we do the subject of conversation isn't energy efficiency. Other than here they're not discussed or publicized. So I doubt peer review is much of a motivator.
I see efficiency of all types as a challenge that's worth my investment of resources -- and, I guess ultimately; a hobby.
Sort of like my veggie garden which I have yet to see a positive ROI on. Of course the deer, rabbits, and neighbors all benefit from that and so do I because I enjoy it.
jebatty
Minister of Fire
semipro, I share your motivation of doing energy upgrades because you like to. I made the decision to install PV, signed the contracts, paid the money, had the system installed and operating, and then I thought to examine more closely whether or not there would be a ROI, and if so, how much and how long. Same thing in replacing nearly all of our lightbulbs with LED's, removing the CFL's, but also giving them away to people who would use them. Besides determining there was a definite ROI on the PV, we prefer the LED light quality and responsiveness over the CFL's. Win-win on all fronts.
Even more so, I see the ROI on my belly from that really good tasting steak I had a week ago. Fast, observable, and visible to all around me.
Even more so, I see the ROI on my belly from that really good tasting steak I had a week ago. Fast, observable, and visible to all around me.
semipro
Minister of Fire
http://m.sciencedaily.com/4.0/html5/44777#!/article/98486/99149772
Interesting article on the "true" costs of energy with respect to air emissions, etc.
An excerpt:
When its environmental and human health toll is factored in, a gallon of gasoline costs us about $3.80 more than the pump price, a new Duke University study finds.
The social cost of a gallon of diesel is about $4.80 more than the pump price; the price of natural gas more than doubles; and coal-fired electricity more than quadruples. Solar and wind power, on the other hand, become cheaper than they initially seem.
Interesting article on the "true" costs of energy with respect to air emissions, etc.
An excerpt:
When its environmental and human health toll is factored in, a gallon of gasoline costs us about $3.80 more than the pump price, a new Duke University study finds.
The social cost of a gallon of diesel is about $4.80 more than the pump price; the price of natural gas more than doubles; and coal-fired electricity more than quadruples. Solar and wind power, on the other hand, become cheaper than they initially seem.
"Looking at electricity, for example, the U.S. Energy Information Administration estimates generation costs per kilowatt hour of power to be about 10 cents for coal, 7 cents for natural gas, 13 cents for solar and 8 for wind," Shindell said.
"Not surprisingly, the U.S. has seen a surge in the use of natural gas, the apparent cheapest option. However, when you add in environmental and health damages, costs rise to 17 cents per kilowatt hour for natural gas and a whopping 42 cents for coal."
The true cost of gasoline is another example. If social costs of around $3.80 a gallon are added in, damages from a typical mid-range gasoline-powered vehicle total nearly $2,000 a year. In comparison, annual damages associated with an electric vehicle are around $1,000 if the power comes exclusively from coal, about $300 if the power is generated using natural gas, and minimal if the electricity is from renewable sources."
"Not surprisingly, the U.S. has seen a surge in the use of natural gas, the apparent cheapest option. However, when you add in environmental and health damages, costs rise to 17 cents per kilowatt hour for natural gas and a whopping 42 cents for coal."
The true cost of gasoline is another example. If social costs of around $3.80 a gallon are added in, damages from a typical mid-range gasoline-powered vehicle total nearly $2,000 a year. In comparison, annual damages associated with an electric vehicle are around $1,000 if the power comes exclusively from coal, about $300 if the power is generated using natural gas, and minimal if the electricity is from renewable sources."
We are far far away at looking at the true total costs of our systems and lifestyles. Manufacturing in the US does not cover the public cost of waste disposal and treatment, the taxpayer does. Because of this, waste is built into the system from excessive packaging, gluttony, obsolescence and inefficiencies that get passed onto the public. Frugality used to be a national virtue, but it has been derided and scoffed at by Madison Avenue to the point where the opposite is now habit.
jebatty
Minister of Fire
Probably none of us is immune from consumption beyond the level of world-wide sustainability. No excuse, so every effort has worth. I can find many fingers to point at others, maybe some more deserved than others, and it is easy to ignore the finger-pointing that I might deserve. Yet, many of us have done well, and we need to continue the effort towards sustainability.
jebatty
Minister of Fire
A major failure of capitalism is the failure to include all costs in the costs of production, which of course strongly skews demand far beyond that which would result if the true price had to be paid.
semipro
Minister of Fire
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