Pellet Shortage ??????

JustWood said:

Yeah,, I looked into vending pellets a bunch of years ago to go along with the coal and firewood. At the time I hauled sawdust for a pellet maker so I would have been backhauling the pellets. My cost FOB the pellet plant was $30/ton less than what the same pellet was retailing for at my competitors 10 miles down the road. Never did get into it as $30/ton to haul,unload,store, and reload didn't trip my trigger.

Click to expand...

It would if, you sat on them until the last part of the season and jacked up the per bag price, like everyone else is doing. Then, it's profitable and you aren't gouging 'cause everyone else is.

It's 'supply and demand dictates price'.

My business model is exactly the same for forage products. I run thousands of square bales every summer, chuck them away in the barns and wait until now (or later) to sell them simply because people cannot pre-plan, it's not part of their thought process, so, about this time, they are running low or are out of hay and I can basically charge what I want to (and do), supply and demand.

I'm not gouging, I'm taking advantage of their inability to plan according to projected need.

Of course you need the room for storage (pellets or hay). No issue with mr (hay).

I've considered doing pellets by the truckload and handling it like hay.

zeiset777 said:

You need to charge more, that's barely paying your fork lift gas to load the ton of pellets.

Click to expand...

There is a difference between markup, and profit.

Bioburner said:

Big car and truck sales up as there is cheap gas. Its going up at a dime a week or more folks. I need to go to the University of Minnesota and get some pond scum. Spin them suckers and get oil and feed the rest back to some pigs to make more scum.

Click to expand...

Do that in your Maytag?

Maybe, ours sure saves on the drier but sounds like a jet spooling up

Looks like this thread has about gone as far as it can constructively too.

Bioburner said:

Looks like this thread has about gone as far as it can constructively too.

Click to expand...

..the ratio of pertinent to non is still reasonable isn't it?
..

It seems most threads run out of steam by page four. The last five posts had no pellets or the stoves in them I am guilty as well.
Pellets have had as most products moving east have had this winter, is all the winter weather. Minnesota Twin Cities has had the 9th coldest November and February was 19th but outlying areas were far worse. Watching a major hiway south of Louisville KY being shut down again and again with ice and snow. Can't remember anyone from Florida asking me about pellet stoves till this year. South KY has 12 inches and very cold that they are walking on the snow. Who needs to truck pellets east when the local market can suck up all the supply.

...and homes down south lack things like INSULATION.......

....and people south of the Mason-Dixon line don't bury their outside water lines very deep. One poster who posts on here, his water lines are down, maybe a foot and a half. Thats a recipe for disaster this year.

My take is, so long as the EU keeps sucking hard on the pellet supply for their biofuel boilers to make power, getting pellets domestically will be a crapshoot at best. You and I have corn but out east, that isn't a viable alternative.

The best bet is to anticipate use and order and pay for (pellets) ahead of time and/or contract with a service like pellets.com where you pre-pay and are assured of fuel being delivered. If we had such a service here, I'd be all over it. I see they even have a payment plan where you can stretch out the payments all year, sort of like a monthly utility bill. I like that. Nothing worse than plunking down better than a grand for pellets, all at one shot.

I'm sure that unlike public utilities, the gummit will never get involved and regulate prices (not that I like that in the first place because I don't because it quells capitalism) so the EU vacuuming up pellets ios something we have to live with and work around and be creative about.

Still snowing, bit warmer now....

SidecarFlip said:

It would if, you sat on them until the last part of the season and jacked up the per bag price, like everyone else is doing. Then, it's profitable and you aren't gouging 'cause everyone else is.

It's 'supply and demand dictates price'.

My business model is exactly the same for forage products. I run thousands of square bales every summer, chuck them away in the barns and wait until now (or later) to sell them simply because people cannot pre-plan, it's not part of their thought process, so, about this time, they are running low or are out of hay and I can basically charge what I want to (and do), supply and demand.

I'm not gouging, I'm taking advantage of their inability to plan according to projected need.

Of course you need the room for storage (pellets or hay). No issue with mr (hay).

I've considered doing pellets by the truckload and handling it like hay.

Click to expand...

Amen brother ..lol I do the same thing with wood pellets 8 bag last year .. Getting 6.90 this year .. Just lowers what I have to pay to heat my home

hossthehermit said:

http://bangordailynews.com/2015/02/...ustry-strained-by-cold-temps-ordering-issues/

Click to expand...

There is certainly a shortage going on up here when the closest mill is limiting sales to 10 bags a day. Pellets at both distributors in the area sell out within a few hours of a full semi delivery. I have been told since I remember that pellets need to be ordered in the spring/summer/fall. That is what we will be doing from now on. Funny this is though as I mentioned in another post - a local oil company here now offers bulk pellets for delivery ... they blow them into an onsite hopper. When I asked about if they have them I was told they have over 300 tons on hand with more coming each day --- this tells me the oil companies might just be the ones buying up pellets.... either way for next year we will be prepared. Until then hopefully our 1 ton left will last and the wood furnace should be here Monday and I'll install it by weeks end...

Profit is not a dirty word ! we all like it ! I try and buy mine ahead of time like in May for the following year I don't save a lot but beat the price increase and usually get them to throw in the delivery fee so mid winter no worries just start haulin the pellets upstair and keep warm !

DOLLARBILL said:

Profit is not a dirty word ! we all like it ! I try and buy mine ahead of time like in May for the following year I don't save a lot but beat the price increase and usually get them to throw in the delivery fee so mid winter no worries just start haulin the pellets upstair and keep warm !

Click to expand...

I do the same thing. I buy my pellets for next year in April. I will actually start making inquiries in the next couple of weeks for next year's supply.

Curious about something..... Do companies like Pellets.com set the price perbag / ton ahead of time like, do they say ok, pellets are $350 a ton for a particular brand this year so they are $355 next fall? It seems to be a volitale market (out east) so how do they predict the cost and is it adjustable?

With propane here, you can pre buy but it's a crapshoot. I prebought 1500 at $1.65 but the matket price is say $150, I still pay $1.65 and the gas company makes money over and above. If the price climbs to $ 2.00, they loose money because I srill get the $1.65. I'm loosing this year btw.

My pellet guy doesnt know his prices until about a week before he get's his first shipment.

I burned pellets for about 9 years. Maybe my experience will help:

1. I finally adopted a policy of, "burn a ton,buy a ton." It took me a
year or two to get ahead a full year, or about 5 tons of pellets. I
made room in a second garage for 'em. I never had to worry after
that. Not everyone has room to store 5 tons, though.

2. Don't rely on the big box stores. The buying decisions are made
at corporate to maximize profit for the wealthy shareholder. They
don't care that we, in Maine, just had the COLDEST MONTH ON
RECORD The MBAs have stated that they'll make more on
lawnmowers this week. That's why Tractor Supply is fully configured
for spring. No matter that it is simply NOT POSSIBLE for anyone in
central Maine to mow a lawn for AT LEAST the next 2 months. They
could sell a ton of Bio-Bricks AND a ton of pellets a
day, but corporate will not send 'em. The store manager has NO SAY
in the ordering of product. It's a corporate decision.

3. Buy a little bit more than you think you will need for the season/month.
Stay a little bit ahead of the game - this can't be stressed enough!

4. Keep your stove clean - you'll get more heat out of it.

5. Cultivate a relationhship with an independently-owned store.
They are much more attuned to local conditions, and they'll
still have winter stuff in - ya know - winter

6. Try several different brands of pellets. It's almost impossible to
get the same brand consistently throughout the year, especially from
the big box stores. They generally stock what's cheapest for them. Note also
that pellets may vary from batch to batch, even from the same manufacturer.

Hope this helps. Good luck to all!

-Stretch

Stretch said:

I burned pellets for about 9 years. Maybe my experience will help:

1. I finally adopted a policy of, "burn a ton,buy a ton." It took me a
year or two to get ahead a full year, or about 5 tons of pellets. I
made room in a second garage for 'em. I never had to worry after
that. Not everyone has room to store 5 tons, though.



-Stretch

Click to expand...

This is exactly what we need to do. Space is a little tight here but we will have to figure something out. If I had a fork truck it would be easy, plenty of storage up high, just limited floor space. However this is something we need to do and now find space for cord wood as well....

Not panicking yet but on my 13th month as a pellet stove owner, pretty sure I haven't gone a month witherout the word "shortage" popping up on at least one topic. I'm OK now but what will the market be like in 5 years? 10? 20?

Bioburner said:

Maybe, ours sure saves on the drier but sounds like a jet spooling up

Click to expand...

Sounds like our Asko. "Gets your clothes Turbine Clean".

tiger said:

Not panicking yet but on my 13th month as a pellet stove owner, pretty sure I haven't gone a month witherout the word "shortage" popping up on at least one topic. I'm OK now but what will the market be like in 5 years? 10? 20?
.

Click to expand...

Hopefully as the industry continues the mature the supply and distribution channels will as well.

I'm having a small, inexpensive insert put in my fireplace this year to hedge the real shortages and price increases.

adam6979 said:

Hopefully as the industry continues the mature the supply and distribution channels will as well.

Click to expand...

Great thought but from what I read it's not about maturity, it's about exporting to Europe. If Joe Blow extruder commits all his production to the EU, thats less for domestic markets notwithstanding. You get a couple extruders exporting all their production, coupled with a cold winter and bang, no pellets.

Don't know if people understand the parameters of solid fuel burning for heat or steam or whatever, but, that picture in my avitar is a boiler that will run on pellets (like the European model) but that one runs on wood chips. Difference is all in the delivery system, IOW, the flighting on the auger as well as the diameter of the auger and auger tube is sufficient enough to pass wood chips, instead of pellets. It will do just fine on pellets as well. Put on your thinking caps now and understand that your pellet stove is capable of running fuel larger than pelletized biomass with some basic modifications.

The one in the picture is 250 horsepower btw.

While your boiler may be capable of using both wood chops and pellets, a standard pellet stove is simply not designed for them. Even if they could pass through the auger to the burn pot, the feed rate air flow, ash removal, igniter are all designed for the burning characteristics of pellets. It would take a heck of alot more than basic modifications.

TimfromMA said:

While your boiler may be capable of using both wood chops and pellets, a standard pellet stove is simply not designed for them. Even if they could pass through the auger to the burn pot, the feed rate air flow, ash removal, igniter are all designed for the burning characteristics of pellets. It would take a heck of alot more than basic modifications.

Click to expand...

Wood chips, not chops btw, chops are pork...lol

I discount any automatic igniter as I've never had one anyway. To me, it's another device to fail eventually. Modification wise, only a larger diameter feed tube (in an auger fired stove) coarser flighting and probably a stronger motor / gearbox.

Stoves, for the most part are gasification combustion, just like the boiler but on a smaller scale so the combustion parameters are there, the fuel supply isn't. Normally, fuel is delivered in semi dump trucks and handled with an end loader, not something the normal home dweller is capable of.

Most of the biofuel boilers in Europe were wood chip fired and now changing over to wood pellets manufactured by offshore extruders (North America).

Point is, the pellet shortage is more about exports impacting domestic supplies than lack of product. Exporting pellets removes most all transportation costs (because they move in bulk, not bagged), all the packaging costs (elimination of packaging lines and handling) so the product is cheaper to produce and easier to sell and of course, small end users get screwed.

What 'for profit' company would not prefer to sell their product in bulk (say 100,000 ton at a crack, versus bagged and skidder on truckloads at 40 ton a crack to a middleman supplier to retail outlets. Elimination of the handling and steps in the distribution chain equals greater profit.

Can't blame them. It's business.

SidecarFlip said:

Wood chips, not chops btw, chops are pork...lol

I discount any automatic igniter as I've never had one anyway. To me, it's another device to fail eventually. Modification wise, only a larger diameter feed tube (in an auger fired stove) coarser flighting and probably a stronger motor / gearbox.

Stoves, for the most part are gasification combustion, just like the boiler but on a smaller scale so the combustion parameters are there, the fuel supply isn't. Normally, fuel is delivered in semi dump trucks and handled with an end loader, not something the normal home dweller is capable of.

Most of the biofuel boilers in Europe were wood chip fired and now changing over to wood pellets manufactured by offshore extruders (North America).

Point is, the pellet shortage is more about exports impacting domestic supplies than lack of product. Exporting pellets removes most all transportation costs (because they move in bulk, not bagged), all the packaging costs (elimination of packaging lines and handling) so the product is cheaper to produce and easier to sell and of course, small end users get screwed.

What 'for profit' company would not prefer to sell their product in bulk (say 100,000 ton at a crack, versus bagged and skidder on truckloads at 40 ton a crack to a middleman supplier to retail outlets. Elimination of the handling and steps in the distribution chain equals greater profit.

Can't blame them. It's business.

Click to expand...

If I were to set fire to a handful of pellets and a handful of wood chips, the pellets would burn hotter and faster and leave a much finer ash. This finer pellet ash is blown out of the burn pot where most of it lands in the ash pan. Due to how fast it burns, pellets need a higher feed rate to maintain fire in the burn pot. I just don't see a standard pellet stove working properly with wood chips. Their slower burn rate means a slower feed is needed. Their larger and heavier ash wouldn't get moved from the burn pot as efficiently. Plus a pellet stove igniter would have a real hard time lighting them.

TimfromMA said:

If I were to set fire to a handful of pellets and a handful of wood chips, the pellets would burn hotter and faster and leave a much finer ash. This finer pellet ash is blown out of the burn pot where most of it lands in the ash pan. Due to how fast it burns, pellets need a higher feed rate to maintain fire in the burn pot. I just don't see a standard pellet stove working properly with wood chips. Their slower burn rate means a slower feed is needed. Their larger and heavier ash wouldn't get moved from the burn pot as efficiently. Plus a pellet stove igniter would have a real hard time lighting them.

Click to expand...

Have you done it or just making a guess?

I've never tried burning wood chips in my pellet stove.