Fire behind the burn pot of a Harman Accentra FS...

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Hi

I have a Harman Accentra2 FS pellet stove .
Have had an ongoing issue with a fire burning behind the flame guide and on the sides and underneath the burn pot. I would see burning pellets drop from the back and fall into the metal shelf that surrounds the burn pot... then the pellets started piling up on the sides of the burn pot on the metal box/shelf I would have to knock them down into the ash pan to stop the burning...and actually at times it would move the flame guide off of track and into the burn pot...

Have already replaced
burn pot gasket,
flame guide
and esp
None of which helped...

Have had Harman tech here he said stove , burn pot .vent pipe all were clean... no holes clogged ignitor area & fines box clean... checked draft etc... replaced door gasket ( even though he said it looked good ) he was baffled and ready to leave with the words ...Sorry I have no idea I have tried everything I know...
So I suggested it may be a warped/worn burn pot ...
He then said yeah it might be ... looks good to the naked eye but if you want to replace I can order you a new one...
Replaced burn pot which was worn but still a flame behind the burn pot from time to time... It is much better as it is much smaller than the raging flame that filled the entire box around the burn pot previously . And I do not see any pellets accumulating on the metal box/shelf.
No sense in calling tech back at this point as he was at a loss before he replaced the burn pot...
Anybody with any experience of dealing with this or any suggestions from anyone would be greatly appreciated...
I have a P61 and when the stove runs low and slow for a little while, a small amount of creosote does form on the back side of the grate and flame guide. Only when it burns low and slow. When it is burning fast and hot there is no problem.
 
I will post what happens ... like I said he has been here 3 times before and does not have any idea of what it could be ...
I am going to ask him once again to call Harman ( as that is what Harman instructed ) to see if they tell him anything ...

3650 Just wondering if you have seen pellets that had just ignited falling behind & then to the sides of the flame guide...
I don't mean off the sides of the burn pot I mean actually behind the flame guide then they fall on that metal shelf under the burn pot ... in all the posts I have read about flames outside of the burn pot none have mentioned where they originated from... so I am curious... may be a clue as to what process is taking place ???
probably grasping at straws but the more info the better in my mind...

will update as we work through this

no. I just have creosote around the burnpot. I chip it away periodically. I comes back. Sometimes its so thick I can't even see the bolts that fasten the pot.
 
Update :
Harman has told Dealer they have never heard of this issue ... and it has to be an air issue ... they think the flames I am seeing are just flames curling around the flame guide !!! REALLY I had this stove for 6 yrs before this and it never had a fire outside of the burn pot... their suggestion was to make sure the grates are not loose ? to my knowledge the grates only go in one way and have the latch to hold them on place ??? Not to mention the tech was the last 1 to put them in after changing the burn pot ...
I am certainly disgusted with Harman and their lack of customer service...
Here are some pics I took of the flames outside the burn pot after the New burn pot had been installed...
Do they look like flames curling around the flame guide to anyone?
1st Picture I am trying to show the flame that burns out side of the burn pot on the side and pics next 3 pics show the flame coming from under/beneath the burn pot...
Harman tech will call next week when the kit to take smoke out of the hopper is delivered to him... ( which I do not have any smoke in the hopper and never have ) But this is their best guess since changing the burn pot did not fix the problem.
Will update when that is done and let you know if it has helped the fire outside the burn pot issue...
Any suggestions in the mean time would be greatly appreciated...
Note: Normally there is no smoke in the window of the pellet stove but when these fires outside the burn pot start I am now seeing smoke... when they go out the smoke goes away ... any thoughts on that?

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Update :
Harman has told Dealer they have never heard of this issue ... and it has to be an air issue ... they think the flames I am seeing are just flames curling around the flame guide !!! REALLY I had this stove for 6 yrs before this and it never had a fire outside of the burn pot... their suggestion was to make sure the grates are not loose ? to my knowledge the grates only go in one way and have the latch to hold them on place ??? Not to mention the tech was the last 1 to put them in after changing the burn pot ...
I am certainly disgusted with Harman and their lack of customer service...
Here are some pics I took of the flames outside the burn pot after the New burn pot had been installed...
Do they look like flames curling around the flame guide to anyone?
1st Picture I am trying to show the flame that burns out side of the burn pot on the side and pics next 3 pics show the flame coming from under/beneath the burn pot...
Harman tech will call next week when the kit to take smoke out of the hopper is delivered to him... ( which I do not have any smoke in the hopper and never have ) But this is their best guess since changing the burn pot did not fix the problem.
Will update when that is done and let you know if it has helped the fire outside the burn pot issue...
Any suggestions in the mean time would be greatly appreciated...
Note: Normally there is no smoke in the window of the pellet stove but when these fires outside the burn pot start I am now seeing smoke... when they go out the smoke goes away ... any thoughts on that?

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If you have an email address for Harman send those pictures to them and copy the dealer. Meanwhile back off the feed A LOT or better yet quit burning the stove until it is fixed. If Harman has a facebook page post those pictures there if possible and ask what gives?
 
Is this the new ACCENTRA 2 ? If so, I think you are due an entire replacement unit. If this were a car it would have long been covered under the lemon law. It would behoove Harman to get the unit back to their "shop" and rip the thing apart to find the cause. The tech, if they represented the dealership should have done this after the first several futile attempts.
 
Never heard of it? Lol. This forum is littered with this issue. Like I said I've been burning mine like that for years. They probably aren't concerned about and wont be unless someones home burns down because of it. Typical corporate behavior...anything to make sales and then minimize any after support to maintain profit. One option is to sell it and pick up a Cumberland.....lol. You'll love it. I may be a little bias.

I still think its creosote burning. Is there a build up around the sides and bottom of pot? It could also be some form of secondary combustion. The smoke gases burning off. Mine looks identical to that.
 
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Wow Thanks for the great ideas ! I will check out Facebook ...

Actually I took these pictures to email to the Dealer so that he could show HARMAN the problem and that it was NOT Flames CURLING around the flame guide !!! Which really burned me up ( excuse the play on words ) When I called to ask for his email address he does not have an email...( this is rural Central PA where not having an email is not as unbelievable as most would think in today's day and age...

I wish I had an email to Harman ... Like I said in an earlier post THEY won't even talk to the consumer ... I was INSTRUCTED to have the HARMAN TECH call them as they are the only people HARMAN will speak to !!!
That is why I am so disappointed with HARMAN when I used to think their product was the best... Now NOT SO MUCH...
If there is no SERVICE AFTER the SALE then the product is not as good as it once was...
I would not buy another Harman to replace this after this fiasco like 3650 stated

Never heard of it? Lol. This forum is littered with this issue.
When I told that to the Harman phone operator PAUL who would not let me speak to anyone who knew anything about the stove He stated that they never heard of it and that it was a Unique problem and I had to have TECH call and speak to their Tech ...

Very frustrating to say the least actually if I have to replace I will look into OTHER makers as I feel like I am being held hostage by Harman not communicating with the owner and the dealer being at a loss as to what is going on...and NOW Harman still not helping or getting involved ...

P.s. 3650
I too liked your theory of creosote burning so
I totally cleaned all creosote around the burn pot it was impeccably clean when I got done... unfortunately the flames outside of the burn pot are still happening ...

Last night I was reading other posts and came across this 1 I was just about rolling on the floor laughing !All I could think of is I would like to give Barry Boyer a real customers take on his employees ...

I spent three days at Harman catching up on QuadraFire pellet stove training. I have to say Barry Boyer is an awesome instructor (give that man a raise and a trip to the company spa). Mike Meyer of HHT you made a great choice having him run the program there. Thanks for introducing the Mt Vernon E2 to me, seems to be a good system. As always the tour of the plant is a highlight of the visit. The employees at Harman are the best and they are the best part in production of the units. It is also good to see QuadraFire gas units in production there. I hope it continues to improve sales and quality. There is a lot of great stuff coming from Harman and HHT. Other stove manufactures better be prepared for the future. Harman is still leading the way.


Eric

Veteran owned and operated On Facebook as Brookfield Stoves a Local U-Haul Dealer
Harman, QuadraFire, and Heatilator are our main brands
NFI certified in wood and wood pellet, working on gas certification
Think GREEN Please save the planet, it is the only one with beer. "
kinsmanstoves, Thursday at 9:30 AM
 
If you have an email address for Harman send those pictures to them and copy the dealer. Meanwhile back off the feed A LOT or better yet quit burning the stove until it is fixed. If Harman has a facebook page post those pictures there if possible and ask what gives?
Smokey I have the feed down to 1 1/2 ... if you look at the pictures blown up you could see better the ash line & burning is back farther . Certainly no pellets being pushed over the burn pots edge...
Also another disappointment Harman or HHT does not have a Facebook page ... Would have loved to be able to get these pics to them...
Thanks for all the help and ideas 1 of these times we will figure it out if we keep on trying... Cuz I do not think Harman is going to help...
 
Message Eric and see if he possibly has an email for someone at Harman - since he seems to be someone who they not only will talk to, but let into their plant.
 
Is this the new ACCENTRA 2 ? If so, I think you are due an entire replacement unit. If this were a car it would have long been covered under the lemon law. It would behoove Harman to get the unit back to their "shop" and rip the thing apart to find the cause. The tech, if they represented the dealership should have done this after the first several futile attempts.

No it is a six year old stove.
 
Did you check to make sure the plate is tighten? It looks like some fire is coming from the plate area. How do you start the fire? Do you use any fire starter? Fire starter can cause this if it drips around the burn pot area and through the holes.
 
Did you check to make sure the plate is tighten? It looks like some fire is coming from the plate area. How do you start the fire? Do you use any fire starter? Fire starter can cause this if it drips around the burn pot area and through the holes.

Yes I checked the plates and they are tight...
No there is No fire coming from the plates when you see it in person that flame you see is coming from between the Outside side of the Burn pot and the open space around it ... the burn pot is wider in the front and narrower in the back so it is almost impossible to get a picture of that small area where the flames are coming from... I think I did a pretty darn good job of capturing the flames certainly not an easy task...
Actually the fire starts totally behind the flame guide ( but that is impossible to capture in a picture ) and then works its way out that the side and shoots out the bottom then it can be photographed...
I have never used anything to start the fire it Ignites itself on Auto .
I personally would think something was wrong with my stove if it did not light itself ?
 
HHT [email protected] they own the Harman brand. https://www.facebook.com/HarmanStoves All kinds of links to social media pages there at the bottom.

Thanks Smokey
I don't know why this page did not come up when I went on facebook just their warehouse came up and there was no where to leave comments or messages... your link took me to the Harman page :cool:
Will be contacting them through facebook in the near future ...
From reading other posters posts seems like what I am experiencing is Harman's M. O. send the tech out to do the same thing with the same unsatisfactory results... and people not being able to get a hold of their tech... That and the fact that I only have 1 tech in my area are holding me back from posting on there immediately... I do want this fixed so whatever it takes... eventually if I can't find an email to send it privately I will post on there...
Thinking I will call and try to get a direct email... as Eric never responded to my message this weekend...
I will continue to try to get to the bottom of this problem...
I so appreciate your help
Have a great day...
 
Here's an experiment you can try the next time you observe fire around/underneath the burn pot.

Open the door during low burn and see what's happening to fire underneath/around the burn pot? The fuel in the burn pot should go to a lazy fire. What happens to the fire underneath/around the burn pot? If there is no fuel, such as fly ash/pellet fines, then it should die down when the door is opened. If it continues to burn (lazy flame), then your stove is generating a secondary fuel source similar to the mechanism of how ash is deposited on glass.

You can also close the door and the fire should restart. If you have a thermometer, you can measure the temperature at which the fire around/underneath the burn pot starts to ignite or just feel the air coming out of the distribution blower to get a quick feel. If it is creosote are something like that, it will start burning again with a long delay after the door is closed. Fly ash, pellet fines, will burn sooner.
 
When I open the door I hear a loud poof and the fire outside the burn pot goes out immediately (simultaneously to the poof noise).
When I close the door the moment the stove calls for pellets the fire behind the burn pot starts again ... these fires usually happen on higher burns ... not low burning...
p.s. if the fire in the burn pot happens to go it it always reignites when I close the door...

does that info tell you anything ?
 
No the lower plate is secure & in the proper place ... it is a Brand new Burn pot which was installed by Harman tech ... the Plate would only get removed to clean out the ash in there ...since the burn pot was only a few days old when I took these pics there was no need to clean it yet... when you are taking pictures through the glass window to capture the flames you can not see the plate as the burn pot is angled
 
When I open the door I hear a loud poof and the fire outside the burn pot goes out immediately (simultaneously to the poof noise).
When I close the door the moment the stove calls for pellets the fire behind the burn pot starts again ... these fires usually happen on higher burns ... not low burning...
p.s. if the fire in the burn pot happens to go it it always reignites when I close the door...

does that info tell you anything ?

Here's my inductive reasoning: I hope it helps.

I'm just curious, did you inspect the back of the back of the plate on the old one for staining around the hole and square areas? The area around the hole where the gas is escaping will discolor the steel a little bit since it interacting with the gases. The fire in the burn pot and the fire around/underneath it are from the same source. Just curious, how long have you had the stove and when did the issue first appear? Part of the seal relies on coefficient of thermal expansion between the mating surfaces, but if the surface finish develops defects over time, those thermal coefficients will not be enough to create a good seal. Therefore, fire underneath/around burn pot is one possible failure mode of the seal breaking down.

The poof sounds is probably due to the gases expanding rapidly to reach equilibrium with the surrounding environment at 1 atm. You can also get a poof sound if you load up too much fuel over a hot bed of pellets, shut the door and let the fire reignite. Although it may be hard to believe, your seal is not as flush as you might think it is. Yes, it's better, but it's not flush!. Gases from the pellets are finding their way through the back of the plate, leaking out and igniting. The heat from the fuel is igniting the gas and causing the fire that you're seeing.

When you can no longer rely on the thermal coefficients, then you will need to seal it with a high temp gasket of some sort that is the same shape as the back of the burn pot. I'm not sure if Harman sells these too. I would be surprised if Harman isn't aware of the issue, yet they let it continue because it's not a safety concern for them and the leak is confided within the stove itself.
 

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No the lower plate is secure & in the proper place ... it is a Brand new Burn pot which was installed by Harman tech ... the Plate would only get removed to clean out the ash in there ...since the burn pot was only a few days old when I took these pics there was no need to clean it yet... when you are taking pictures through the glass window to capture the flames you can not see the plate as the burn pot is angled

Likely the pot is trying to seal against a warped weldment and as GeHmTS notes a gasket may now be needed there in any event what the he double is the dealer doing?,
 
Maybe a double gasket is needed, makes sense
 
Hello GeHmTS, SmokeyTheBear & gfreek

Sorry I was ill and not on here past few days...
Thanks for all the responses and suggestions and questions :)
to answer GeHmTS about the gasket ...
The Gasket was the 1st thing that was replaced

burn pot gasket, then
flame guide
then esp
None of which helped..

Then a new Burn pot and another New gasket were installed
tech checked for warping and showed us that the gasket was still perfect and clean no signs of smoke residue...
So this lead me to believe that there was no leaking , or flames touching that area ( I may be wrong but that was my deduction at the time )
I assumed I would see discoloration since the gasket is a thick snow white material...
If my thinking is wrong please advise .

To answer SmokeyTheBear I am still waiting the Harman tech to call and tell me that the air kit that was ordered has arrived from Harman and set up an appointment to install asap ...
BUT that call has not come yet... and I have been home because I was sick...
I think it is ridiculous that we are literally less than 2 hours away from Harman and it takes almost 2 weeks to get a part... I am telling you this is mind boggling... If I thought I would get anywhere I would drive there myself...
but with the way Harman is they won't do direct anything with the customer...
Other than waiting for the kit he is doing nothing... went over the potentiometers with him and he said everything was working well according to the ddm ... but if I want he will order a new board... told him I just want my stove fixed I do not want to replace things for no reason as this is getting expensive... If he thinks I need a new board I have no problem replacing it if it would cure the situation ... he said he does not think I need a new board everything was working perfectly...
that's my update
Huge Thanks to all who are still trying to assist me in a resolution to this problem
Have a great night
 
I have the same problem. I just cut a piece of asbestos rope the width of the flame guide and pressed it in so the rope was tight. It held the flame guide from moving. My guide was moving ever so slight when pellets were fed. The pellets were actually making the guide move and allowing the same fire that you have. Try a strip of 1/2 or 3/4 inch rope and see what happens. I cut the rope in 3 inch lengths.
 
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