The world has gone mad.

SidecarFlip said:

I'm buying 53 pound test corn right now (Just filled both tanks, 1000 bushel each) with cleaned for feed corn at $3.6 delivered and augered.

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Newbie question here - is the BTU value of corn comparable to wood pellets? Are they harder to start burning?
(Ok, 2 questions.) Thanks in advance for any insight and info..

Most of your biomass fuels are pretty close to same per pound btu wise but the density of corn is more per cubic foot. Can be close to 10% more that pellets. Corn needs another couple hundred degrees to start burning. That's why the older stoves that burn straight corn start with some pellets. With pressure ignition starting corn was resolved.

kappel15 said:

I now have 2 1/2 pallets in the shop. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. If corn stays affordable, those will last me 5 years

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Probably the same scenario here (Just pellets for getting the old girl going)... unless I go to hard coal and thats a possibility.

Pellets at 2.74% moisture are suppose to produce 8,246 btu/lb. Corn at 13.43 % moisture, is suppose to produce 7,398 btu/lb Wheat at 10.38% moisture is 7159 btu/lb and sunflower seeds at 8.0% moisture produce 12,000 btu/lb

Bioburner said:

The original Whitfield stove used 3/8 inch pellets.

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I can fab up any pitch of auger in the shop to accomodate any sized pellet.

chickenman said:

C'mon guys you are just making stuff up.
Industrial pellets are substantially different from domestic pellets. THe reason they are 8mm is that they are compressed at a lower pressure than 6mm. This means they are far less stable. Also the ash level can be as high as 5% allowing the use of far lower quality feed stock.
These pellets are designed for moving grate furnaces designed to handle the lower heat and higher ash output. There is no way a domestic pellet stove can handle them.
The argument that industrial production is forcing up domestic prices is nuts. Why would a pellet producer sell his output to a UK power station for $100/ton when he can sell it locally for $300?

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I dunno, ask Lake Girl, she has the stats, I don't.

I could build an auger that would transport twist off bottle caps down an auger tube.... of course that don't mean a stove would burn them.....

SidecarFlip said:

I dunno, ask Lake Girl, she has the stats, I don't.

I could build an auger that would transport twist off bottle caps down an auger tube.... of course that don't mean a stove would burn them.....

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Simply a matter of changing the pitch of the flighting.

I know of a few burning cherry pits, peanut shells pellets, grass pellets, corncob pellets.

Most are stuck with what they have in their area and adapt. Sunflower seeds burn great in the AE, but lots of ash as you say. Just needs more cleaning. With those btu's, for some it is a trade off. kap

too expensive to burn sunflower seeds here also, unless you grow em

Snowy runs hazelnut shells.

chickenman said:

C'mon guys you are just making stuff up.
Industrial pellets are substantially different from domestic pellets. THe reason they are 8mm is that they are compressed at a lower pressure than 6mm. This means they are far less stable. Also the ash level can be as high as 5% allowing the use of far lower quality feed stock.
These pellets are designed for moving grate furnaces designed to handle the lower heat and higher ash output. There is no way a domestic pellet stove can handle them.
The argument that industrial production is forcing up domestic prices is nuts. Why would a pellet producer sell his output to a UK power station for $100/ton when he can sell it locally for $300?

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Tell that to every big pellet mill in Georgia, chickenman! EVERY pellet they make goes to Europe. AND we gave them local grants and tax breaks to build here plus they use up our forests. I guess the incentive is that they don't have to deal with picky, uneducated consumers and pushy box store purchasing agents.

kappel15 said:

Pellets at 2.74% moisture are suppose to produce 8,246 btu/lb. Corn at 13.43 % moisture, is suppose to produce 7,398 btu/lb Wheat at 10.38% moisture is 7159 btu/lb and sunflower seeds at 8.0% moisture produce 12,000 btu/lb

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Myself, I never roast corn that high. It has to be 12 or less (preferrably less) for me to roast. The higher the moisture the more nitric issues you have and clinkers too....

I'm out on oilseed. A couple winters ago (when corn was stupid high, for kicks and grins I mixed in some soybeans with the pellets (maybe 2 parts pellets and one part beans) to try. The results were a very hot, almost uncontrollable fire. I'll pass on oilseeds.

Life these days is all about who can screw who over, the middle class is getting smaller, either your rich from screwing people over, or poor cause your the fool

tjnamtiw said:

Tell that to every big pellet mill in Georgia, chickenman! EVERY pellet they make goes to Europe. AND we gave them local grants and tax breaks to build here plus they use up our forests. I guess the incentive is that they don't have to deal with picky, uneducated consumers and pushy box store purchasing agents.

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Sounds logical to me. I never saw so many finiky pellet buyers until I came to this site. I've had some less than optimum pellets in the past but, they all burned nonetheless.

From a business model, it's more lucrative in the end to sell in bulk rather than smaller quantities, not only is it easier to ship, it takes less labor.

Thats the great thing about seasonally renewable fuels like corn. You get a new batch every fall.

I think what transpires in Oz isn't what occurs here.....

LordmetalZ28 said:

I stopped into my local true value yesterday to pick up some miscellaneous hardware and was pleased to see lignetics where in stock and bieng sold by the ton. Great I thought ill pick up next years stash now and get it out of the way so I can cruise by and go fishing all summer and not haul pellets in the heat. So I ask for a ton of lignetics and the cashier ask for 375$ and then I ask the owner if hes sick? I can understand a few extra bucks but his price has shot up over a 100$ in a week. i just thought maybe id share this crap with you

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Nuts! Especially in light of the fact that heating oil is so cheap now. I just got an oil fill last Tuesday, $2.06 a gallon! That's btu-equivalent to less than $250 a ton of pellets.

chickenman said:

No you are wrong there. Industrial pellets are an international commodity just like grain. THe only difference is the scale is much larger in the US than Oz with the pellets.

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I was referring to....."From a business model, it's more lucrative in the end to sell in bulk rather than smaller quantities, not only is it easier to ship, it takes less labor.....

You don't have that much in forested land anyway...do you??

chken said:

Nuts! Especially in light of the fact that heating oil is so cheap now. I just got an oil fill last Tuesday, $2.06 a gallon! That's btu-equivalent to less than $250 a ton of pellets.

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Gotta be nuts to burn a SPACE HEATER, that's for sure! I'd rather have the whole house warm for less money than watch my money get burned up in a flaming blow torch.

SidecarFlip said:

Myself, I never roast corn that high. It has to be 12 or less (preferrably less) for me to roast. The higher the moisture the more nitric issues you have and clinkers too....

I'm out on oilseed. A couple winters ago (when corn was stupid high, for kicks and grins I mixed in some soybeans with the pellets (maybe 2 parts pellets and one part beans) to try. The results were a very hot, almost uncontrollable fire. I'll pass on oilseeds.

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I prefer around 13 to 14, but did burn some 17.9 early on this winter. It burned ok,but lost 20 to 30 * burning off the moisture

Everything here in northern michigan is still prices good, around 4.5-5 a bag.

See my sig below on what I have for 2015 / 2016 season.

chickenman said:

Why would a pellet producer sell his output to a UK power station for $100/ton when he can sell it locally for $300?

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I don't have a clue ... must be getting great pricing off Ontario to convert the Atikokan PG from coal to pellets.

chickenman said:

They are using the leftover rubbish from logging which is normally windrowed and burned on site as a total waste product.

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Resolute Forest Products and Rentech are the two companies doing this. From Resolute's webpage: Another example is the construction of an industrial wood pellet plant that will convert a currently underutilized residual material into a reliable source of renewable energy. This plant will be built adjacent to the Company’s sawmill in Thunder Bay, Ontario, and is scheduled for completion in 2014.
It appears to be that they are using sawmill residuals.... I've seen (live near) an area Resolute just logged over. They didn't slash pile - took the pine and ran. Birch and poplar cut and left lying there. They have lost 3 certificates so far...
http://www.greenpeace.org/canada/Gl...y-certificates-proving-forests-mismanaged.pdf

Rentech info: http://www.eadcorporate.com/projects/rentech-wawa-wood-pellet-processing-plant/
Wawa Facility
This idle strand board plant is being converted to a wood pellet production facility capable of producing approximately 450,000 tons annually. The first contracted delivery is scheduled for the fourth quarter of 2014. The facility is expected to consume approximately 890,000 tons of certified sustainably managed fiber annually.

Pellet-King said:

I remember when I was buying pellet's for $134 ton for years and even a few ton's for $100 at wallyworld in the spring, then few year's later when I saw $180 a ton I said noway!!

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Two years ago I bought Somersets from Menards on sale for $179 a ton.

Fact is ,,,,,, Most new production capacity is being built for "industrial pellets" and export. That is the business plan.

Capital does not purposely accumulate for the construction of unprofitable industry.

It therefore follows that SOMETHING about industrial pellets makes them cheaper to produce otherwise the new production would not be constructed.

5% ash tells me there are by products in these pellets that residential pellets do not contain. These by products MUST lower the cost basis of the product. Add to this the lower cost per ton of shipping ,,,, The lower cost of administrating a business that deals with a few large customers instead a myriad of small businesses. Do not forget the financial advantage of secure long term contracts for production.

I am sure there are other inputs that lower the cost too.

In my preretirement career my plant served 19 accounts -- One accounted for 24% of our volume and 21% of our profit. We had a 12 year contract to serve that account. A second was 19% of volume and 17% of profit with a 10 year contract. They accounted for less than 10% of our service costs COMBINED. I would gladly have traded the other 17 (with 1 - 3 year contracts) for two more of the larger accounts with long term deals.

There is a lot that goes into business plans and decisions that are behind the scenes.

The most important thing I as a consumer keep at the front of my mind is ...... In the modern world of commerce I am insignificant to an entity that conducts business on a National or International level. I purchase most consumable commodities from large businesses because I am price sensitive regarding such items. I purchase most NON commodities from small local firms because service becomes a larger issue than price and I am not insignificant to the small business owners. I am still deciding where my pellet supply fits into that mind set.

The majority here and everywhere largely follows the same purchasing pattern. Most simply nver give it conscious thought and therefore fail to realize it.

Old Spartan said:

Fact is ,,,,,, Most new production capacity is being built for "industrial pellets" and export. That is the business plan.

Capital does not purposely accumulate for the construction of unprofitable industry.

It therefore follows that SOMETHING about industrial pellets makes them cheaper to produce otherwise the new production would not be constructed.

5% ash tells me there are by products in these pellets that residential pellets do not contain. These by products MUST lower the cost basis of the product. Add to this the lower cost per ton of shipping ,

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I'd be surprised if the ash content was <5%. Higher bark content and the use of undesirable southern hardwood species NOT used for lumber production are also reasons for higher ash content.
I wouldn't be surprised if waste pallet wood and demolition end up in industrial pellets.
The placement of these plants is curious. Most are 100 miles or less from port (no brainer). Just outside or very near high population density areas and close to heavily farmed areas. I've heard of possible eucalyptus, sugar cane byproduct and hemp feedstocks in the works for southern mills.
My curiosity makes me wonder if in the near future cellulosic crop residue ,farm wastes, waste from food production (fruit pulp/seeds),wood demolition ( Florida landfills are impossible to permit due to water table/nimbyism), etc will be used/mixed with wood for industrial pellet production = cheaper,,,, if not a profit center from tipping fees.