BK Ashford Smoke Smell Follow Up

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Here is a picture of what you are dealing with.Underneath the door gasket are the studs and nuts that hold the glass and glass gasket in place. The door gasket is a high density gasket and lays on top of the studs and nuts. Since the door gasket is high density it does not conform down around the studs and nuts but lays on top of the studs and nuts. So the gasket does not get a complete seal against the door.That's the first leak. When the door is closed against the stove,the door gasket comes in contact with the flange on the stove which is supposed to seal any smoke from getting out or any air getting in.But what happens when you close the door and latch it against the stove, the flange on the stove is centered over the studs and nuts on the door. If you removed the door gasket and put the door back on the stove and closed it,you would see that there is little room between the studs and nuts and the flange on the stove. Almost no room for a gasket. So when the door is closed with the gasket in place, the flange on the stove pushes against the studs and nuts and flexes the the door enough that it pushes the glass retaining bracket and works the glass loose and causes another place for a leak.Blaze King ground the the top of the studs off on my last door to help get a better seal but it didn't help.What they need to do is redesign the door so the studs and nuts are not under the door gasket.
 

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It smells almost all the time early in the burn but the lower the stat is set the worse it gets. After 8 to 10 hours it is no longer noticeable, but there isn't as much smoke in the Firebox that late in the burn. I can easily get the advertised burn times and everything is exactly as I thought the stove would be except the smell.

I feel as if I am clogging up calentarse's thread. I may start my own unless the mods feel the discussion is pertinent to his situation, which it may be.
You are experiencing the exact same thing as me; after the fire has burnt everything down to the coal stage, I don't smell it anymore. Don't worry about hacking my thread. Any information you get I will be interested in as well.

Couple if interesting facts:

I still get the smell when operating under non-bypass mode. I feel that it is worse, however when cat is engaged.
I get the smell at all settings. It is the worst when the stove is cut back and at the initial stages of burning a fresh load (first 5-7 hours or so)
I get NO SMELL from the back of the stove near the connector or near the cat probe hole. Everything is rising up from the front of the stove.
 
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Is a setting of 2 considered a lower setting?
Can both of the chimneys on these problem stoves be eliminated as the cause of smoke spillage? Don't they both meet the minimum and the recommended chimney specs from BK?

The firebox should be airtight. These are welded steel stoves.

I too suffer from smoke rollout when opening the loading door when the firebox still has fuel in it. Never had that at all with the old non-cat on the same chimney. The good news, for me anyways, is that the gasket design on the princess is good enough to seal it in when the door is closed.

Lots of bad PR for BK on this. Do you suppose they are looking into a fix?
Chimney does not appear to be the issue in most of these cases. Some folks have gone to expensive measures to eliminate this as a possibility without noting an improvement in the smoke leakage.
 
Is a setting of 2 considered a lower setting?

Chimney does not appear to be the issue in most of these cases. Some folks have gone to expensive measures to eliminate this as a possibility without noting an improvement in the smoke leakage.
I did notice a minor improvement, but that could have been increased draft due to the double-wall or possibly due to the fact that he cleaned my chimney as well. He got about 3 cups of glaze out of it. I can deal with the smoke spillage, although annoying, if I can get this door glass, gasket smoke smell problem resolved. The stove burns just as I had expected it to and it is perfect for my house. I don't want a different stove! I can't go through all this again as I just got it in November. Thermalox is expensive stuff and now I've gotta buy even more for my new double-wall pipe that didn't even fix my smoke smell dilemma.

Thank you to everyone who is chiming in here. I'm grateful for your opinions and fingers crossed we'll see BKVP chime in here. I know he and BK is busy and I don't want to take up their time if I can fix this on my own but I'm at the end of my rope here (and at the bottom of my bank account).
 
Is a setting of 2 considered a lower setting?

Chimney does not appear to be the issue in most of these cases. Some folks have gone to expensive measures to eliminate this as a possibility without noting an improvement in the smoke leakage.
But, many many hundreds don't report any issues at all. ? Maybe a few got out of the factory with bad welds? I don't have any issues with a less than desirable chimney height.
 
Is a setting of 2 considered a lower setting?

No, it is 50% throttle and dead center in the "normal" gold zone on the stat.

Manually welding those studs onto the door allows quite a variability in ultimate stud length. Many welds on the BK look robotically welded, are the studs robo welded? I have the same studs sticking into my princess gasket and one of them even has a loose nut!
 
The glass retainers on our stove are out of the way of the gasket path. This was the same on our F400.
 
But, many many hundreds don't report any issues at all. ? Maybe a few got out of the factory with bad welds? I don't have any issues with a less than desirable chimney height.
Which leads me to believe that it isn't draft related, despite the numerous attempts to convince me otherwise. I'm so confused; there are so many factors contributing to and contradicting what everyone's saying...

If it's a weld and behind one of the air inlet tubes in the top of the stove, how would I see it? My chimney guy went all through it and he didn't find anything (and he was the one who found the crack in my VC). This seems less probable that the aforementioned gasket issues.
 
But, many many hundreds don't report any issues at all. ? Maybe a few got out of the factory with bad welds? I don't have any issues with a less than desirable chimney height.
There's plenty enough of the issues on these forums that I think there is clearly a design or QC issue going. Remember for every 1 person we see on this forum there's probably at least another 10 out there with the same issue we don't hear from. Now I'm not wanting to throw gas on the fire, but rather I think it's time to take some of the pressure off of the stove owners here who have posted every detail, every picture, and made every modification, adjustment, measurement now matter how obscure and bizarre that has been thrown at them from a variety of angles, and start to focus on the hardware itself.
 
If you have a mechanic friend, seal up the flue at the stove and use a smoke machine to pump odorless smoke into the stove until you can either rule out a bad draft, or pin point a faulty weld. Take all the bricks out, vacuum everything out. Isn't there a home made way of magnafluxing as well to check for cracks?
 
These stoves are designed to be air tight,but they are not. Firecat's website said if you smell a smokey smell you have a leak. Plenty of people on here have been trying to fix this smokey smell problem by putting a lot money into taller chimneys and better double wall pipe with no results. Some people say they have no problem with the smokey smell,but I bet that is because of where the stove is located. The smokey smell will collect near the ceiling,so if you have a single level home and the smell collects near the ceiling you probably won't smell it. With my set up in the basement all the heat rises along with the smokey smell up the stairwell into the kitchen and the smell can be quite brutal. The reason you have a smokey smell and can see no smoke is because the door gasket acts as a filter and only the smell gets through, that's why you have such a build up of creosote on the inside of your door gasket.If these stoves were airtight the only time you would see smoke or get a smokey smell would be when the stove lost the draft and the smoke would come back out through the air inlet.I have 29 ft of triple wall Duravent pipe and have no draft problem whatsoever but have the smokey smell.
 
These stoves are designed to be air tight,but they are not. Firecat's website said if you smell a smokey smell you have a leak. Plenty of people on here have been trying to fix this smokey smell problem by putting a lot money into taller chimneys and better double wall pipe with no results. Some people say they have no problem with the smokey smell,but I bet that is because of where the stove is located. The smokey smell will collect near the ceiling,so if you have a single level home and the smell collects near the ceiling you probably won't smell it. With my set up in the basement all the heat rises along with the smokey smell up the stairwell into the kitchen and the smell can be quite brutal. The reason you have a smokey smell and can see no smoke is because the door gasket acts as a filter and only the smell gets through, that's why you have such a build up of creosote on the inside of your door gasket.If these stoves were airtight the only time you would see smoke or get a smokey smell would be when the stove lost the draft and the smoke would come back out through the air inlet.I have 29 ft of triple wall Duravent pipe and have no draft problem whatsoever but have the smokey smell.
The argument would be that you have too much chimney and your pipe is getting cold. The blame can always be put on draft because there's always a way for it to be faulty.
 
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Here is a picture of what you are dealing with.Underneath the door gasket are the studs and nuts that hold the glass and glass gasket in place. The door gasket is a high density gasket and lays on top of the studs and nuts. Since the door gasket is high density it does not conform down around the studs and nuts but lays on top of the studs and nuts. So the gasket does not get a complete seal against the door.That's the first leak. When the door is closed against the stove,the door gasket comes in contact with the flange on the stove which is supposed to seal any smoke from getting out or any air getting in.But what happens when you close the door and latch it against the stove, the flange on the stove is centered over the studs and nuts on the door. If you removed the door gasket and put the door back on the stove and closed it,you would see that there is little room between the studs and nuts and the flange on the stove. Almost no room for a gasket. So when the door is closed with the gasket in place, the flange on the stove pushes against the studs and nuts and flexes the the door enough that it pushes the glass retaining bracket and works the glass loose and causes another place for a leak.Blaze King ground the the top of the studs off on my last door to help get a better seal but it didn't help.What they need to do is redesign the door so the studs and nuts are not under the door gasket.
Called and spoke to Chris about this today. You have shut your door too tight and smashed the gasket down too far. That's why this is happening. You have to get a new gasket and start all over. That's what I'm going to try to do.
 
i noticed that i would get a little smoke smell after a "gas explosion" in the firebox. you know, a POOF! of flame. do you get poofs of flame at times? the added positive pressure in the firebox will help force smoke out. dont forget about the hole in the top either..... one POOF! actually rattled my probe i think.
 
Standard back-puffing issue, common with certain woods (and sometimes higher MC%'s), in a very low air issue.

I'm noticing a lot of Ashford owners complaining about smoke smell the last two weeks. Maybe the complaints have always been there, and I just wasn't watching for them before. I have seen six different Ashford 30 owners (plus one Sirroco 30 owner) make this complaint in the last week or two alone.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/do-ashfords-have-a-smoke-smell-problem.142806/
 
UPDATE: Called Chris on my lunch today to follow up. He said that my chimney isn't high enough. I need to add another length of chimney up top to increase my draft. If I had adequate draft, smoke would not roll out of my stove when I opened the door. I am going to start saving for this improvement.

We also spoke in length about the differences in opinions on this site. Whereas, everyone's advice is appreciated, what works for one won't necessarily work for another.

I'm at a disadvantage with regard to draft because I'm 1. In a mild climate, 2. My chimney is on the short end of acceptable, 3. I have 2 45s, and 4. My wood is not <13%.

I've never had a stove this efficient thus I've never learned to troubleshoot to this extent. Trying to stay positive and hopeful...
 
Can both of the chimneys on these problem stoves be eliminated as the cause of smoke spillage? Don't they both meet the minimum and the recommended chimney specs from BK?

The firebox should be airtight. These are welded steel stoves.

I too suffer from smoke rollout when opening the loading door when the firebox still has fuel in it. Never had that at all with the old non-cat on the same chimney. The good news, for me anyways, is that the gasket design on the princess is good enough to seal it in when the door is closed.

Lots of bad PR for BK on this. Do you suppose they are looking into a fix?


Highbeam, "LOTS"?
Respectfully, EVERY single manufacturer has issues from time to time with a FEW stoves. We work with the folks to get them resolved. There are thousands of these models in the field and two or three posters have had this issue. Truth be told, others call here and we work with them to solve the issues.

I spoke with Calentarse this morning. Great guy, understanding. If he has some smoke roll out and smoke smell, something is not correct. Today he said he has a 13' total chimney length and we recommend 15' minimum. So we (he and I) will get this licked. He also has some offsets in the chimney that complicate draft in higher efficient appliances.

As for MotorsargeT the 90 degree will always cause some issues. Also, how far is the rise before the 90 degree? These are influencing factors on efficient stove performance/draft. Keep this all in perspective and we always help the customer. That is why I am on this site!
 
Standard back-puffing issue, common with certain woods (and sometimes higher MC%'s), in a very low air issue.

I'm noticing a lot of Ashford owners complaining about smoke smell the last two weeks. Maybe the complaints have always been there, and I just wasn't watching for them before. I have seen six different Ashford 30 owners (plus one Sirroco 30 owner) make this complaint in the last week or two alone.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/do-ashfords-have-a-smoke-smell-problem.142806/
i noticed that i would get a little smoke smell after a "gas explosion" in the firebox. you know, a POOF! of flame. do you get poofs of flame at times? the added positive pressure in the firebox will help force smoke out. dont forget about the hole in the top either..... one POOF! actually rattled my probe i think.
Yes, my stove back puffs and yes, I smell the smoke when this happens to a greater extent. Yet, I smell smoke during normal operation so this hasn't been a concern of mine...this also speaks to my low draft and hopefully when more pipe is added this will be another thing of the past!
 
I have an exterior chimney with a thimble. It has 20 feet of class A with 3 feet of double wall inside the house. It has a T on the outside and a 90 degree in the house to penetrate the wall. I installed the stove (I removed the smoke dragon and replaced with this) so no installer to call. I could replace the gasket but am going to wait until I get the new double wall with 45's in. If it stays cold enough. If it doesn't I guess I'll be waiting until the fall.


Your main issue seems obvious first of all.
If you are getting soot build up on the outside edge of your gasket then you definitely have a leak there and it needs to be replaced or the door adjusted.

I am curious to know how you sealed your flu pipe and joints ? and what did you use?

Start a new thread though....So it doesn't hijack anymore on Calentarse
 
Standard back-puffing issue, common with certain woods (and sometimes higher MC%'s), in a very low air issue.

I'm noticing a lot of Ashford owners complaining about smoke smell the last two weeks. Maybe the complaints have always been there, and I just wasn't watching for them before. I have seen six different Ashford 30 owners (plus one Sirroco 30 owner) make this complaint in the last week or two alone.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/do-ashfords-have-a-smoke-smell-problem.142806/

please take me off your list of "owners complaining of smoke smell". i am not complaining. it hasnt been much of a bother to this point and points to poor draft
 
Highbeam, "LOTS"?
Respectfully, EVERY single manufacturer has issues from time to time with a FEW stoves. We work with the folks to get them resolved. There are thousands of these models in the field and two or three posters have had this issue. Truth be told, others call here and we work with them to solve the issues.

I spoke with Calentarse this morning. Great guy, understanding. If he has some smoke roll out and smoke smell, something is not correct. Today he said he has a 13' total chimney length and we recommend 15' minimum. So we (he and I) will get this licked. He also has some offsets in the chimney that complicate draft in higher efficient appliances.

As for MotorsargeT the 90 degree will always cause some issues. Also, how far is the rise before the 90 degree? These are influencing factors on efficient stove performance/draft. Keep this all in perspective and we always help the customer. That is why I am on this site!
I have 33 inches before the 90. With the 2 x 45's I have coming it will be a bit less than that but I hope losing the 90 will help. And BKVP, I love the stove. It does exactly what I wanted it to do other than this. Long burns, doesn't burn you out of the room. It just stinks like smoke.

3 weeks ago I removed the lower clean out on the T to clean the chimney with my sooteater. I went to cover the bottom with a plastic bag to catch whatever I got and the draft (stove burned out for 2 days, no coals at all) on a 45 degree day sucked the bag all the way to the cap. I had to get on the snow covered roof to retrieve it. I have a hard time believing its draft related but I am working to make it as perfect as possible.
 
Your main issue seems obvious first of all.
If you are getting soot build up on the outside edge of your gasket then you definitely have a leak there and it needs to be replaced or the door adjusted.

I am curious to know how you sealed your flu pipe and joints ? and what did you use?

Start a new thread though....So it doesn't hijack anymore on Calentarse
I am going to replace the gasket also. It just stinks that I am putting a gasket In a brand new stove when it did it from day 1. I used a meeco product that you had mentioned in one of these threads to seal every joint except the slip in my double wall and I took each section of chimney apart and used the same to seal the joints there also.
 
Here is a picture of what you are dealing with.Underneath the door gasket are the studs and nuts that hold the glass and glass gasket in place. The door gasket is a high density gasket and lays on top of the studs and nuts. Since the door gasket is high density it does not conform down around the studs and nuts but lays on top of the studs and nuts. So the gasket does not get a complete seal against the door.That's the first leak. When the door is closed against the stove,the door gasket comes in contact with the flange on the stove which is supposed to seal any smoke from getting out or any air getting in.But what happens when you close the door and latch it against the stove, the flange on the stove is centered over the studs and nuts on the door. If you removed the door gasket and put the door back on the stove and closed it,you would see that there is little room between the studs and nuts and the flange on the stove. Almost no room for a gasket. So when the door is closed with the gasket in place, the flange on the stove pushes against the studs and nuts and flexes the the door enough that it pushes the glass retaining bracket and works the glass loose and causes another place for a leak.Blaze King ground the the top of the studs off on my last door to help get a better seal but it didn't help.What they need to do is redesign the door so the studs and nuts are not under the door gasket.

Is this the door on the Sirocco 30 or the Ashford 30? Or are they the same design? I know the firebox is the same.. not sure if that includes the door.
Does the Princess have the same setup?

That is not an impressive design in the slightest.... any sealing surface needs to be as smooth as possible. If the fasteners absolutely need to be there, there are other lower-profile options available.
 
If this were back puffing would there not be accumulation of wood gases with subsequent combustion in the fire box? Back puffing when it occurs in my VC is VERY evident. The flame goes out, there is a pause of 20-30 seconds, then a large woosh of flames dancing around. Only in a few rare situations usually in the shoulder season with high windy days does the backpuff however cause enough force to cause smoke to escape the top loader or the air intake.

Seems like if his ashford was backpuffing it would be pretty evident.
 
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Taking all of the different setups and modifications into account I still can't see how this can be purely a draft issue. Perhaps if the draft is ramped up enough it will eventually overcome whatever defect is allowing this to happen, but I just don't buy that this is 'normal' in any way.

I have a 15' single wall in exterior masonry chimney, in a mild climate, and both stoves I've run up this chimney have had zero issues with smoke leakage. The non-cat insert I had before was vented straight up, and I'd almost have to whip the door open just to get smoke spillage, and the cat stove I'm running now runs 2' horizontal out the back, into a 90 then up the 15' from there. It's 50 outside right now and I'm running low cat burn at 370F with zero smoke inside or outside of the house, the way it should be. My setup now also has seams between the back of the stove and the 15' vertical run, none of which are sealed beyond how the pipe fits together.
 
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