Englander 17-VL

brenndatomu · Mar 29, 2015

Charles2 said:
Mid 50's yesterday.

At that high of a temp, some stove/chimney setups would not only be difficult to start from cold, but more like impossible. Things will be much better next year, your wood will be even dryer and if you wait until it is under 40* out, much better draft. A starter fire like begreen describes above ^ ^ ^ works great by the way...

Charles2 · Mar 29, 2015

bholler said:
That is probably your main problem right there with tems that high you are going to have trouble.

Didnt you say you just split it yesterday?

Please explain why high outdoor temps make wood hard to light. I split a piece yesterday because you asked me to.

begreen said:
Take two ~2" short splits (about 10-12" long) and place them N/S about 4" apart centered on the middle of the stove. Put 3 newspaper balls in between or a chunk of firestarter. Then place more 2-3" pieces of wood E/W oriented on top of those two splits leaving some air gap betwen them

Would you please define "splits"? I think the maximum length the firebox will accommodate N/S is 8". If you put 2 pieces N/S about 4" apart and then put 2-3" pieces E/W on top of the newspaper, won't the E/W pieces just collapse to the floor when the newspaper is consumed?

begreen said:
This is a straight-up interior 2 story chimney, correct?

Correct.

tarzan said:
It's not the stove. It is your wood, draft or both.

With temps in the 50's your draft will be working against you for sure.

Are some species of wood much harder to light than others? In addition to having trouble lighting my mystery species, I've had trouble with SPF framing lumber and pine shims.

bholler · Mar 29, 2015

Charles2 said:
Please explain why high outdoor temps make wood hard to light.

Higher outside temperatures will greatly reduce your draft with out good draft there is not air being pulled through the stove to supply air to the fire and it will be hard and slow to start.

Charles2 said:
I split a piece yesterday because you asked me to.

I am sorry i misunderstood you yesterday i thought you were saying that your wood was still in round form and you just split it yesterday my mistake.

blacktail · Mar 29, 2015

Warmer outside temps mean a smaller temp difference between your stove exhaust and the outside air.
Colder outside temps= bigger difference = stronger draft.

tarzan · Mar 30, 2015

In general soft woods light easier than hard woods but the key is to have dry wood and split small when starting a fresh fire. Think Lincoln Log size in warm weather.

In the shoulder season when I build an evening fire with temps around 50* I have discovered the top down thing works well. It took me a few years to even try it because it seems backward from the way I was taught. The reason I think it works so well though is that by placing the newspaper on top of the kindling it warms the flue faster and a draft is then established. You could even try newspaper (black and white print only, no glossy print) on top AND under the kindling. Don't be afraid to start small with the kindling, at this stage your goal is to heat the flue and establish a hot coal bed and fire to lay your larger splits on.

Once you have a roaring, popping, cracking kindling fire established then add two or three of your smaller splits on top loosely but touching. Two on bottom, one on top like a triangle.

Follow these directions loosely because EVERYBODY does it a little different and there is no wrong way as long as you keep in mind your goal while starting a fresh fire is to establish draft and establish a coal bed.

Remember, your stove is just a steel box. Putting a fire in that steel box is all about dry wood and draft. If it can be done in a 55 gallon drum it can surely be done in your stove made to burn wood.

Charles2 · Mar 30, 2015

bholler said:
Higher outside temperatures will greatly reduce your draft with out good draft there is not air being pulled through the stove to supply air to the fire and it will be hard and slow to start.

If I am leaving the door open, it's hard to believe the fire lacks air. Is it possible the draft is too strong and blowing out the fire?

At what point do I close the door and/or adjust the air control?

begreen · Mar 30, 2015

If you have good dry kindling it is hard to blow out the fire. Normally the stove would start fine with the door slightly ajar, maybe 1/4 to 1/2". Take some construction scraps (2x4s and 2x6 cutoffs) and with a hatchet, split them down to 1/2" to 1" thick pieces. They should take off right away.

Next time you go to start the fire, take a picture first, before lighting. Post the picture here so that we can see what you see.

Also, have you checked to be sure the baffle is in the correct position?

saskwoodburner · Mar 30, 2015

I don't recall seeing it asked or mentioned, but how and where does your chimney come out your roof? Closer to the side, closer to the middle near the peak? How far above the roof-line does it come out?
Is the 10 foot rule being met? Any very tall trees nearby?

Charles2 · Mar 30, 2015

begreen said:
If you have good dry kindling it is hard to blow out the fire. Normally the stove would start fine with the door slightly ajar, maybe 1/4 to 1/2". Take some construction scraps (2x4s and 2x6 cutoffs) and with a hatchet, split them down to 1/2" to 1" thick pieces. They should take off right away.

Next time you go to start the fire, take a picture first, before lighting. Post the picture here so that we can see what you see.

Also, have you checked to be sure the baffle is in the correct position?

It was precisely a 1" thick split construction scrap that I was surprised would not stay lit. I'll take a photo tonight when I start over - I'm going to try newspaper above and below as Tarzan suggested. I have not checked the baffle, nor do I even know what that is or how to check it.

saskwoodburner said:
I don't recall seeing it asked or mentioned, but how and where does your chimney come out your roof? Closer to the side, closer to the middle near the peak? How far above the roof-line does it come out? Is the 10 foot rule being met? Any very tall trees nearby?

It comes out near the side, meets the 10-2-3 rule and there are no trees nearby.

bholler · Mar 30, 2015

Charles2 said:
If I am leaving the door open, it's hard to believe the fire lacks air. Is it possible the draft is too strong and blowing out the fire?

with outside temps that high i really doubt there is that much draft. From what you described you either have bad fuel or insufficent draft and there fore air supply. If you post pics or a video of it we may see something else but at this point from what you told us it sounds like fuel or air problem.

Charles2 said:
I have not checked the baffle, nor do I even know what that is or how to check it.

The baffle is the sheet of material sitting above the tubes it should be all the way back

kennyp2339 · Mar 30, 2015

Not for nothing but, are you opening the air control all the way out before lighting the fire, regardless of outdoor temps (although they are very important for drafting) you should get something if your air is opened all the way and the door is cracked slightly... Also as Begreen said make sure your baffle is in the right position, it should be against the rear of the stove with the gap opening in the front, right above the door

Dix · Mar 30, 2015

I may be misreading, but are you trying to light one piece of scrap lumber to get a fire going??

Oldman47 · Mar 30, 2015

Charles2 said:
Please explain why high outdoor temps make wood hard to light. I split a piece yesterday because you asked me to.

Would you please define "splits"? I think the maximum length the firebox will accommodate N/S is 8". If you put 2 pieces N/S about 4" apart and then put 2-3" pieces E/W on top of the newspaper, won't the E/W pieces just collapse to the floor when the newspaper is consumed?

Correct.

Are some species of wood much harder to light than others? In addition to having trouble lighting my mystery species, I've had trouble with SPF framing lumber and pine shims.

If you are having trouble lighting SPF it is not a wood dryness problem. That construction lumber is dry as a bone. Look to your draft as so many others have suggested.

Charles2 · Mar 30, 2015

kennyp2339 said:
Not for nothing but, are you opening the air control all the way out before lighting the fire

According to the manual, when the air control rod is pulled all the way out, the air flow is cut off. So I have been pushing it all the way in. Is it possible the manual is wrong?

Doing The Dixie Eyed Hustle said:
I may be misreading, but are you trying to light one piece of scrap lumber to get a fire going??

No, always more than 1 piece. How many pieces would you say is ideal?

Dix · Mar 30, 2015

I jumble up 5 or 6, atleast. The more you can get going, the quicker the coal bed builds, then you can add splits.

Dix · Mar 30, 2015

Charles2 said:
According to the manual, when the air control rod is pulled all the way out, the air flow is cut off. So I have been pushing it all the way in. Is it possible the manual is wrong?

No, always more than 1 piece. How many pieces would you say is ideal?

Air control on an Englander is usually pulled out for full throttle (if the 17 works other wise, some one please correct me).

Quoted from the manual ....

This stove has a single air control rod which regulates the wood burn rate; when the primary air control slide is pulled all the way out of the unit, the stove will burn more slowly and put out heat over a longer time period. Conversely, when the air control slide is pushed all the way in, the unit will burn more quickly and put out a larger amount of heat over a relatively shorter time period. Do not attempt to modify the range of air control adjustment for any reason.

The manual for the 13 says open is out, closed is in (can't copy & paste it), which is how the 13 works.

Charles2 · Mar 30, 2015

OK, so I found the vermiculite baffle above the air tubes and confirmed that it was pushed all the way toward the back of the stove. Then I took some photos as I arranged my starting materials, but I don't know how to post them here. Can someone tell me how? The good news is that for the first time, I didn't have to add any newspaper to keep the kindling from dying out!

tarzan · Mar 31, 2015

Sounds better. did you manage to get a fire established?

I'm not sure about the air control on the 17 and I hope someone will verify. It does sound like pulling the air control out decreases primary air from what has been posted but that would be backward from the way most stoves are designed.

daleeper · Mar 31, 2015

Page 17 does in fact say that the air control pulled out shuts it down, pushed in opens the air up.

http://www.heatredefined.com/support/owners-manuals/

Charles2 · Mar 31, 2015

tarzan said:
Sounds better. did you manage to get a fire established?

I always manage to get a fire established - it's just a matter of how hard I have to work at it. My goal now is to reduce the amount of newspaper. How low do you think is possible?

tarzan · Mar 31, 2015

Charles2 said:
I always manage to get a fire established - it's just a matter of how hard I have to work at it. My goal now is to reduce the amount of newspaper. How low do you think is possible?

Dunno. Depends on your kindling (size and moisture content) and draft. If for some reason I let the fire go out in the dead of winter I usually just use 4 or 5 rolled up pieces of newspaper and skip the kindling all together, using smallish splits instead. In warmer weather I use about the same amount of newspaper but with kindling. It probably takes close to an hour to get a fire from start to cruising for me in warmer weather.

bholler · Mar 31, 2015

Charles2 said:
I always manage to get a fire established - it's just a matter of how hard I have to work at it. My goal now is to reduce the amount of newspaper. How low do you think is possible?

How long is it taking to get a fire going? I typically only use one or 2 pieces of paper but at 50 degrees out it would take more if i am starting from a cold stove

Charles2 · Mar 31, 2015

bholler said:
How long is it taking to get a fire going? I typically only use one or 2 pieces of paper but at 50 degrees out it would take more if i am starting from a cold stove

I guess it took about 30 minutes before I felt totally confident. Next time I'll use half as much newspaper and see what happens.

BrotherBart · Mar 31, 2015

Ya wanna be amazed at a fire start up?
.
http://www.supercedar.com/

Makes starting a fire with newspaper look like starting it with a Bic lighter.

Charles2 · Mar 31, 2015

BrotherBart said:
Ya wanna be amazed at a fire start up?
.
http://www.supercedar.com/

Makes starting a fire with newspaper look like starting it with a Bic lighter.

Don't those contain wax or something? And are such additives good for stoves?

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