New here - IWB or OWB installation costs & recommendations

Your home is somewhat larger than ours, but it's probably somewhat more energy efficient. Based on wood consumption and propane use we average about 60-70kbtu/hr over the winter to heat our downstairs to 68*F. Peak demand on very cold days/nites probably hits ~150-180kbtu/hr from our 60 Class boiler. The heat rises and keeps the upstairs to a comfortable low 60's for bedrooms. Our boiler is about 150' underground using 1 1/4" pex. The system would have been happier with 1 1/2" pex, but 1 1/4" works fine. Did you ask him how many boiler systems they have installed. That's the other problem being in the south, just not many people who've done this.

burnergirl said:

-Yes I'm going to be the primary person handling everything with the wood to the boiler, etc. I'm in decent shape and I'm fairly young (depending on who you ask!), I believe I can swing that part of it.

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My questions about running the boiler was not health or strength related. There is far more involved than just feeding the boiler. I'll admit, maybe our BioMass may not be as user friendly as the Froling, Vigas, Varm, or some of the other mid to high level boilers, but it's definitely not just feed it and let it run. I don't know how to convey this, but ours requires low level mechanical skills similar to keeping an old car running. Changing plugs, doing brakes, messing with the radiator... etc. Hopefully others can chime in. My wife is athletic, healthy and strong with above average mechanical aptitude, but she would NOT do everything necessary to keep our boiler running properly all season.

Certainly other boilers are probably less demanding. My suggestion is read the EKO and BioMass stickies above. It will give some perspective what some of us go thru to get them and keep them running. It's worthwhile to notice that Froling, Garn, Vigas and some others haven't needed a Sticky.

Not saying you can't, but to my knowledge every poster in those stickies are guys committed to saving their families money burning wood and willing to spend time/energy to do it. I'm just trying to make you aware that there's far more involved than just feeding the beast. And all the extra attention is highly dependent on which boiler you select based on my 7 years hanging out here. Running our wood boiler is nothing like what the BioWin pellet guys describe. I'm trying to give you advice I'd be giving to my daughter. Best wishes.

Tennman said:

Running our wood boiler is nothing like what the BioWin pellet guys describe.

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True, but I just spent $272 a ton for next year's pellets.

burnergirl said:

I'll look more into pellets but I'm just not sure how anyone is going to get any heavy boiler down into the basement due to very narrow stairs that turn at the doorway to enter.

That's very interesting. This installer was thinking I needed 200,000 BTUs.


.

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That number of btu's does not tie in with your propane consumption. It would be akin to burning over 2 gallons of propane an hour. You would notice that bill.

burnergirl said:

Oh wow, I did not really think about that. I was hoping for feeding and cleaning the beast only. I am not handy at all and would not feel comfortable messing with anything on it.

That's interesting. This guy is a seasoned boiler mechanic/servicer, I don't think he know much about wood boilers however. He's interested in selling me a high-efficiency propane boiler most of all I believe. I'm just not sold on it yet. I don't want to sink $10k+ into any system and turn around and regret my choice when the energy prices rise (whatever fuel that may be).

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Propane boilers can modulate, I have a propane boiler which is rated at 400,000 BTUs. That is conneced with 2 inch lines. When it is running it does not have to be full on, can run a partial load and can in addition turn on an off. So a 200,000 btu boiler may make sense even if over the top when using propane.

Wood boilers are not so variable, closest to a propane boiler would be wood chip or pellet, cord wood boilers work best flat out which is why they are often teamed up with storage which acts like a battery.

If you look at the modern high end boilers then there is not a lot of difference but inevitably due tp the fuel supply it is going to be messier.

I would have gone with wood chip if it was not for the issue of chipping wood and storage. It can get really cold where I am so you could end up with a big frozen lump. Pellets avoid this but you are back with a difficult to control cost.

I think for most using cord wood the plus is that you can always get your fuel supply for your time and a little cost. I can look out of the window and see many square miles where the land owners are happy to get rid of their dead wood. Could live another life time and never make much of a dent in what is down.

Having said that my best deal was 3 semi loads of beetle kill logs delivered.

My Wife is pretty handy but if I weren't around I'm not sure she'd have success keeping the wood boiler going without a bit of help the 1 or 2 times a year a minor issue arises.
I was thinking though that this would be the case with a pellet boiler also - there are actually many more moving parts. I share your concerns with pellets: you're still subject to market prices, though more local.
Ultimately, if you can't self-install you just need a local, knowledgeable, honest heating guy that has experience with whatever boiler you do get. This may be tough the further South you are.
I still think that the simplicity and durability of a Garn would be your best bet. No bridging concerns or complex controls. You would want an experienced installer who can show you the ropes initially. I would contact them and see if there is a dealer/installer for your area. They do require annual water sampling but that's not a big deal, take it and send it to them for analysis, they recommend any necessary balancing chemicals.

Running a gasser does not need to be complicated. A lot of it depends on the piping and wiring scheme.

I have the same boiler as ten man and I have it set so you put wood in it, press start and throw in a match. No further user interventions are needed. The controls decide where and when to send the heat. If storage gets below a useable temp it switches over to oil. The next time you start a fire once the boiler is up to temp it switches off the oil.

It did take a few days of trial and error to get the air settings perfect, but I haven't had to touch them in four years. Or anything really except the start button .

I used one of the TARM plumbing schematics that they have available on their website. Since your not doing the install yourself I'd look to see if they have an experienced dealer in your area that does installs and service.

Mike.

I'm much in the same boat. Load, light, walk away. If it cools off, oil boiler kicks in. However.. To be fair. There is still cleaning ash out (not just daily rake out) I do a exchanger brush out every 5 or 6 weeks. To you and I.. that 15 or 20 minutes is about like vacuuming out a car. To others, the idea of taking off 4 bolts, brushing the tubes, and using an ash vac, then making sure the rope seal is good, and bolting on the cover.... might seem like a lot of 'mechanic' work.

JP

Fair enough...

Weekly I shovel out the ashes out of the lower door. And brush out the lower chamber. Probabky takes 10 minutes or so. And monthly I do a more thorough ash removal by scraping the ashes in the upper chamber to the lower before I clean it. None of which is really more complicated then cleaning out a woodstove. Though the volume of ash is greater... I produced 25 gallons of ash this year from about 10 cord of pine.

Annually I do the mechanic type work of removing a few bolts and cleaning the tubes and vacuuming out all the ash, adjusting the door seals etc. and cleaning the chimney. If the OP isn't capable then that's where a full service dealer would be helpful.

I think the biggest obstacle to keep my wife from using it would the amount of work to get the wood to the boiler. So location of the boiler next to where the wood is delivered would be my number one design criteria if I had to it again.

To give you another idea and suggestion.

We had a Froling installed this year at our house. The system is a Froling boiler, two 300 gallon froling storage tanks, and all of the suggested pumps, and pumping. We didn't do any of the labor ourselves except for to enclose the tanks and insulate the heck out of them. Our fully installed cost was just a bit north of 20k. This is for a unit that you fill it with dry seasoned wood, put a few pieces of paper in the lighting door, light it and walk away until the next day when you do it again. The whole house is evenly warm and we have hot water all the time as well. We have a backup propane boiler that hasn't been switched on since our November install. We are going through a lot less wood than when we heated our house with a woodstove with propane boiler backup and the whole house is warm, not just two room near the stove!
Maintenance is a breeze, just clean out the ashes every few weeks. Anyone can operate it.
The payoff for us will be in a short 5-7 years and we live in a much much colder heating environment. The average daily temperature for February of 2015 was -2 degrees(not a typo). The biggest benefit is that the whole house is evenly warm and a lot less work than constantly tending the woodstove. I think of it as great investment.

We also are continually tightening up our house with airsealing and insulation. I think this is the first priority for anyone before just throwing btu's into a heating system and up the chimney. You might even be able to get away with a smaller boiler if you can reduce your heat loss.

Good luck with your research

burnergirl said:

Hi there, I've been lurking on this forum for a few weeks trying to absorb all I can but I feel like I've gotten to a point where I am looking for some advice from you fine folks.

I live in Central NC, about 30 minutes from the VA border, where winter temps can get down to about 5-10°F (but are typically in the 20's overnight). I have a 5,600 sf old farmhouse with minimal insulation and old doors (both of which will be addressed this year - adding insulation to attic, basement, and replacing drafty doors).

I need to figure out a way to heat 3,800 sf (the main and 2nd floor of the house) with a wood boiler. I am currently burning through approximately 350 gallons of propane each month for a heating bill of approximately $900/mo. during the winter. This is clearly not sustainable as I'm not rich and don't want to keep throwing money at the propane company.

I have looked at both the IWB and OWB and am slightly confused after speaking with numerous dealers. I want to use the wood boiler as my main heat source for my hotwater baseboards and domestic hot water and have the system go to an automatic backup of the propane boiler if the temp drops. This doesn't appear to be an issue with most systems. My issue seems to be one of what exactly is necessary to install a good solid system. I am fine with building an outbuilding to house the boiler however this will be approximately 250 ft from the basement where it will need to hook into the existing system. I have been educated in the benefits of thermal storage however I'm not sure whether this is recommended for OWBs as well as IWBs. Also, I was shown a setup recently that had additional expansion tanks. Are these required with every setup? I really want to keep my costs overall INCLUDING installation below $15,000. Is this feasible? I've been warned that installation alone could cost $5-10k which blows my mind. I cannot do any of the installation or setup myself therefore suggestions of doing so will be ignored. Also, I'm not interested in coal burning so please save your breath. I want high efficiency (phase 2 compliant) and minimal cost.

Thank you in advance for your help. This forum is filled with super knowledgeable people and I feel like I've been educated tremendously already!

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If you're buying firewood, how expensive are pellets down where you live?

Velvet, If "down where you live" is directed to us Southerners:

I buy delivered and stacked oak/hickory for ~$150/chord.
I can buy pellets in bulk from the plant for $165/ton.

Burning pellets will be about $400 more/year vs purchased wood ignoring the fuel to go get it.

Those are real good prices if you ask me! Up where I live, I can get wood for 100/cord, but that's in log form, not stacked up nicely, lol. I just committed to buy 5 tons of pellets for 272/ton-I think they're getting a little crazy here. My point was, that for OP's specific location, and if she has to buy wood, split and stacked or not, maybe pellets are worth considering, and the convenience would be worth something.

Wood up here is $190 a measured cord. Just an hour south of me it's pushing 225/250. I can buy it tree length at 135/140 a cord, but thats a weighted cord(5000lbs).

The paper mills are pushing the prices up on hardwood. I know of at least 5 mills that avg processing 100 cords an hour of hard wood and turning it into wood pulp or paper.Thats 24/7/365.

So, i think that the OP should get some accurate prices of cord wood and what is the species/btu's of wood. Every region is different in pricing. I've been able to buy it for 185/190 a cord, but it's just a 1/2 mile away for delivery.

Pellets....don't need to keep two yrs worth on hand. Two yrs of firewood takes up alot of space.And unless you're spoiled like me, it can be alot of re-handling. Firewood can warm you many times over. But it is good exercise, unless you cut your leg off.....PPE's? naww don't need 'em.

Back to the original post that started this thread.....you mentioned insulation. That should be first thing you spend money on. Insulate the crap out of the house. Then walk around on a windy cold day and spray foam and caulk the heck out of everything. Old windows? In the fall the hardware stores should be selling the shrink wrap that you put over windows. Get it. this works very well. take a few minutes and put it on correctly it looks ok. Even experiment a little. Do one window but not the one beside it. You'll fee the difference.

A wood boiler system can/will cost alot of money. One more winter seeing the propane truck might happen. But after you get the house insulated better this will give you some good numbers on heat load which will help you design/buy a new heating system. Not uncommon for heating companies to over size heating systems, they don't want you calling and complaining about not enough heat. But over-sizing a system is not a good thing. Short cycling is not good. Not very efficient.

My oil fired boiler is a 85,000 btu unit. (1800 sq/ft 2 story house on top of a hill in northern Maine)The old, excuse me, well seasoned gentleman that designed/installed my heating system was stubborn as hell about not over sizing for my house. So i let him do his thing. In the deep of winter, when it's -40f out, the unit runs pretty damn steady, but it kept us warm. He knew what he was doing.

Keep asking questions on here. As i said before, good group of people here with good experience and some bad experiences. I have a solo Innova that has 820 gals of storage that I'm very happy with. I also have a Garn Jr that I'm happy with. Both are very good units. Plus I have two heat pumps. I like those also. Thats why i asked about your electricity rates. Plus with heat pumps you make heat or A/C and get the bill after. No prebuying wood/pellets/oil/propane.

I've got way too many heat sources.....but it's fun hobby? Some people buy fancy cars/boats...I'm a little odd. Also i have a windmill out back.....once that quits I'll have a really nice flag pole.

flyingcow said:

but it's fun hobby

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Yep, that can justify a lot of things!

One thing that doesn't appear to have been brought up is the proposed location. If you are not out in a remote area with no nearby neighbors( I would suggest 1/4 mile), then an OWB is not recommended if you want to keep the peace with said neighbors as OWBs tend to stink up the neighborhood, including your own home. Be very careful when looking at OWB efficiencies. Generally the state efficiency is quite high but that is only when there is a demand for heat. Unfortunately, the OWB has to be sized for the maximum heat load so for much of the time the OWB is idling and in that mode the efficiency is poor. This means that much of the wood you are putting in the OWB is going up into the air. Folks who switch from OWBs to indoor gasifiers with storage easily see 50% or more reduction in wood use. Part of that savings is that gasifiers inherently force the operator to use dry wood as they wont run with wet wood. OWB folks love to talk about burning green wood and they can but the majority of the heat in the wood is just converting water in steam that goes up the stack.

The other issue is you need to do the energy upgrades and then calculate the maximum heat load. Going by rule of thumb back of the envelope guesses isn't going to work unless you have thermal storage.

If you have reliable electric power and your utility offers net metering, grid tied solar with minisplits is hard to beat and in your climate the summer time AC is probably appreciated. I would then budget a wood stove in the basement or central core of the house sized to keep the house above freezing in emergencies.

Hey burnergirl,

Hang in there, keep researching and things will become more clear. I maintain that you MUST get a good idea of your design heat load and your annual heat load to make the best decision going forward. As you mentioned, you plan on some energy upgrades to the house. This will be, hands down, the best investment you can make for the long term. With a good energy consultant you should be able to get a reasonable idea of what your future heat load will be before the energy upgrades actually take place. Again, showing you the best places to spend your money.

Spend some time researching here: greenbuildingadvisor.com . It's a great resource and might help you find someone in your area to asses your situation. Someone who is actually gonna crunch some numbers and NOT go by rules of thumb.

Now lets take a quick look at some numbers that you posted in your OP:

350 gallon/mo= ~31.8 MM btus/mo at 100% efficiency which is not the case obviously. So lets guess and say 80% efficient. 31.8 X .8 = 25.5 MM Btus/month delivered.

If, BIG if, you average 25.5 MM Btus/mo for 5 months that would be ~127 MM Btus/year.

Greensboro, for example, cause I don't know where you actually are, averages ~3800 Heating Degree Days and has a outdoor design temp of 18* F ( the temp you are above for 97.5% of the time)

If some of my assumptions above are close then that would give you a design heat load of ~ 110,000 Btu/hr at an 18*F outdoor temp. When you drop down to 5*F you might actually need ~140,000 btus/hr but these conditions don't last very long.

I am guessing your annual and hourly heat loads are not as bad as that, but that is just a guess.

OK, take a look at these number and let me know if I am way off on anything and we can adjust things. If any heating "expert" you have out to your place can't be bothered to do a heat load calculation or at least look at some numbers based on your usage then they are not there to help you. Period.

Noah

peakbagger said:

If you have reliable electric power and your utility offers net metering, grid tied solar with minisplits is hard to beat and in your climate the summer time AC is probably appreciated. I would then budget a wood stove in the basement or central core of the house sized to keep the house above freezing in emergencies.

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This, along with the right energy upgrades is exactly what I would be working towards.

Tough recommending solar on wood burning site . I have both so I may be a bit more unbiased. Unfortunately the grid tied solar and heat pumps are a lot harder for most folks to get a handle on then wood plus every utility treats solar different so the answers change from utility to utility. .

I have both as well. There is certainly 'risk' there as your net metering laws could change, and your entire payoff can be shot to pieces. Never know when lawmakers are involved.

That is a lot of PV

Como said:

That is a lot of PV

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Indeed, and I would only consider PV down the road if/when founds allow and if the numbers pan out.

For now though, energy upgrades, mini splits and a wood stove could make for a much more manageable heating situation. Plus some super efficient AC for those muggy days that will be here shortly.

The latest greatest mini splits are so efficient that they're definitely worth considering. A seasonal COP of 4+ is very possible in the piedmont of NC.

And a couple cords in a wood stove in the coldest weather could be a much better introduction to wood burning than trying to manage 6 or 8 cords year.

Noah

Hello BG. I am a newbie as well. Just went thru my first winter heating with a boiler and feel I can share some knowledge now in confidence.

First off I am in northern ohio and we had the coldest winter here since 1976 I think. Temps for weeks on end struggled to break 0 and wind chills in my area were down to -40 at times.

I am heating a well insulated 2200 sq ft ranch with a full 2200 sq foot basement. I have a lot of glass, 16' vaulted ceilings with way too many can lights. House is in an open field where most winter days winds are 20+ mph.

Last fall I ended up installing a portage and main ml25 conventional owb about 40' from my basement. 100 gallons of capacity, forced air system with propane back up. I did the complete install myself. Everything total took about 25 hours and costs $6500. This cost included boiler, pump, piping, HX, and all the fittings.

I went through right around 10 cords of wood from October 18 till last Monday.

I saved around 5200 dollars in propane this season.

Things I've learned: get a gassification furnace if you can, prepare your wood ASAP and keep it near boiler, get the absolute smallest furnace you can get away with, don't skimp on piping, keep up on maintenance.

Woodburning no matter how u do it will be work but you will feel so much more accomplished at the end of the year! And you will have saved a lot of money!

Suggests $5 a gallon, round here it has been less than $2.