I Thought I Was Good at Sharpening

Bigg_Redd said:

That is a very interesting opinion.

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My mouth is wide open and shut at the same time.

After a while, you just can't sharpen your chains effectively. At least that is my experience. New chains rip. After maybe a half a dozen sharpenings, I find that my cutting is slowed noticeably. I was on a big scrounge last weekend, and I had to just stop and go purchase a couple of chains. My 460 was cutting like a poulan wild thing.

DougA said:

Even though there are posts from people who say they can get better performance after they sharpen a chain with X method, I have never, ever found that sharpening by any method will ever get a chain as good as it was brand new.

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If you can make a 95% worn down chain as sharp as a brand new, there is a reason (or "two") it might cut faster than a brand new one.First of all there is an increased space between the gauge and the cutting edge, that will allow more chips and dust transport. Also the chains is lighter, and I am not sure if a chain can be sharper than when hand-sharpened with a light hand and a brand new file. I think the the main reason we fail when handsharpeing is that we are not perfect on all different angles, and adjusting the gauge. Also very important to make both left and right side teeth exactly equal in angles ant tooth length, otherwise we lose efficiency, and the chain will act like dull faster. If you cut into a rock or a nail, it is usually only one side of the chain that gets dull, but you need to cut down both sides to equal tooth length.

I also find that if you hit anything other than wood with your chainsaw, a hand file is really hard work to bring the chain back to sharp and you really need an electric wheel or rotary.

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When sharpening .404" pitch chains for harvester heads, we use high speed robot machine grinders. But there is a problem with that. If you cut too much material the link get overheated, gets blue and the hardening is gone. But if a coolant is used, (we just let some water sip over the tooth while grinding), you can be pretyy tough cutting off the damaged part of the teeth. We used water on all grinder sharpening.

DougA said:

Even though there are posts from people who say they can get better performance after they sharpen a chain with X method, I have never, ever found that sharpening by any method will ever get a chain as good as it was brand new. I've got files, file guides, electric sharpener, rotary sharpener, everything except a Timberline, which I think is way overpriced. I've taken my chains to the best shops to sharpen and it's no better than I can do myself.

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Try the Granberg File N Joint. It definitely beats hand files and the Dremel, and I can honestly say the chains are sharp as new. Timberline gets great reviews but I wasn't willing to spend $100 on it. I got the Granberg for $35 off amazon and if you already have the files you're all set. It takes a few sharpenings to get the hang of it, but once you do, it's quick and easy, and most importantly, super sharp. I've been using it with milling recently and it's nice because you can sharpen the chain on the bar out in the field.

After years of trial and error, I can say that I can hand file to a like new sharpness, and I sharpen my blades on the saw. Nothing that complicated, I've taught several people how to do it, with a simple round file and holder that has the angles marked on the plate.

My fundamentals include: 1. Tighten the chain, tighter than normal before you begin. I tighten mine usually as tight as I can but still able to rotate the blade by hand. This stops deflection and tilting of the blade in the bar when you're pushing the file. 2. Chucking the saw up in a vice, with the bar and chain perfectly horizontal. I have a big vice mounted on a hydraulic lift table that allows me to put it at an ideal height for me. 3. I always count my strokes, usually 3-4 per cutter on average. I do all the right cutters, then spin the vise around and do the left. I use a simple Stihl round file holder. 4. Lastly, I only hit my depth gauge's every 5th time I sharpen on average, and check them with a depth gauge tool.

By having my saw chucked up in a vice, and adjusted to an ideal, ergonomic filing position,with all my angles set and the bar perfectly horizontal, I'm able to put ideal, consistent strokes on each cutter.

Not that exotic, but I can keep a new blade cutting ribbons for a very long time, and take an old blade back to like new.

Lastly, I can sharpen a blade with this system in about 5 minutes. And, it's always easier to keep a new blade like new than it is to allow an old blade to get really dull. I usually touch mine up every other tankful as a rule. When you keep them this sharp, you can really feel each cutter, and tell if you have one that needs a bit more attention, just by the sound/vibration of the file going through.

Regarding new chain sharpness, I agree there's almost nothing like it. I aim to sharpen mine to out of the box Stihl sharpness, as that's the gold standard imo. Nothing like a brand new blade pulling 5 inch long ribbons when you first put it on. I like to keep mine that way, but it includes a lot of little attention to detail that would take too long for me to type up here.

Also, over the years I have bought and owned most every type of sharpener, and tried the local "pro sharpeners" over the years, and I still believe nothing can get them as sharp as a practiced hand with a roundfile and guide, and certainly not as quickly. I like the timberline idea, but the time to sharpen seems pretty long and tedious, especially when doing a 36" no skip chain from what I have heard/seen.

If you own a proper sharpener, a new chain is not ready to use, but it is a good starting point. Use the Granberg and put a good edge on the new chain before you even start to use it.

Oldman47 said:

If you own a proper sharpener, a new chain is not ready to use, but it is a good starting point. Use the Granberg and put a good edge on the new chain before you even start to use it.

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You're suggesting people should "sharpen" brand new chains?

Oldman47 said:

If you own a proper sharpener, a new chain is not ready to use, but it is a good starting point. Use the Granberg and put a good edge on the new chain before you even start to use it.

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I can't imagine needing to sharpen a new stihl blade out of the box. Other off brands, maybe. But why in the world would you waste the time and remove material from the cutter of a new, factory precise chain? Makes no sense.

DodgyNomad said:

I can't imagine needing to sharpen a new stihl blade out of the box. Other off brands, maybe. But why in the world would you waste the time and remove material from the cutter of a new, factory precise chain? Makes no sense.

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See Akkamaan's thread here
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/is-there-a-reason-to-sharpen-a-brand-new-chain.143444/
It seems that Stihl specifically is calling out a tooth profile that does not match the factory profile. A new chain may have that odd profile for the simple reason that it is easier to achieve quickly with the factory tools than the rounded shape with proper tooth exposure that they tell you to get when you dress up a chain. Manufacturing methods almost never achieve optimum conditions but instead achieve conditions the high volume, rapid tools can accomplish. I would use a file on a chain for the same reason that a new knife always sees a steel before I use it. I like sharp tools.

Oldman47 said:

See Akkamaan's thread here
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/is-there-a-reason-to-sharpen-a-brand-new-chain.143444/
It seems that Stihl specifically is calling out a tooth profile that does not match the factory profile. A new chain may have that odd profile for the simple reason that it is easier to achieve quickly with the factory tools than the rounded shape with proper tooth exposure that they tell you to get when you dress up a chain. Manufacturing methods almost never achieve optimum conditions but instead achieve conditions the high volume, rapid tools can accomplish. I would use a file on a chain for the same reason that a new knife always sees a steel before I use it. I like sharp tools.

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I saw his post. A newbie with just a handful of posts, stating that it's a trick so Stihl will sell more chains? Give me a break.

I'm sure their chains can vary based on time between machine service, grinders age, etc.. Based on my experience, and that of most old timers I know, none of us would dream of sharpening a new, out of the box blade, and accusing Stihl of sharpening chains in a manner to dull more quickly in some grand scheme to sell more chains is the worst kind of pseudoscience based on a couple of pics from a smartphone. He didn't even know what kind of chain it was.

I just see no need to sharpen a brand new chain, for most of us, there's a lot of wood to be cut and trees to be dropped that take up our available time instead of going over Stihl's factory sharp blades.

Simple way to prove this: Buy a few new chains from Stihl, set up some test logs and film it vs. your sharpened versions and see if yours can out cut those from Stihl, and by how much.

claydogg84 said:

You're suggesting people should "sharpen" brand new chains?

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Yes, you should touch up a new chain. You can definitely feel the difference. A hand sharpened chain sharpened by a good filer cuts like no other. IMO a new chain doesn't come close to its full potential until it has been given some TLC. The old Canadian that taught me how to file took two new stihl chains, put them on the 180's and then gave one a little love and we lined 'em up. The touched up chain was significantly faster, and the chips were cleaner and larger. Both saws were bought at the same time and had about the same hours.

If you read what I said, I accuse Stihl of nothing more than using expedient manufacturing processes. That does not mean that they can provide the "ideal" tooth shape right out of the box. I write off almost any conspiracy theory as worthless but I do not ignore evidence of a less than ideal factory tooth shape.

Sharpening a brand new chain, or recommending others do it for that matter, is absurd.

I stand by my post that I have never had a chain cut as well as a brand new one. I've ordered a Granberg file so I will post when I have had a chance to test it out. That will make 4 different sharpening systems I have.

The only thing I can add (again) is that each person has a subjective opinion on what they think constitutes a 'sharper' chain. A brand new Stihl chain wants to pull you through the wood IMHO. After it's no longer brand new, a sharp chain is wonderful but I have never had one that wants to grab your arms and pull you through the tree like a new Stihl does.

I never sharpen brand new chains. A tenth of a second in the cut is not going to amount to a hill of beans. You guys can split that hair all you want.
If I am that concerned about speed then I will use some of the square ground chain that have I converted.
Simington square grinder.

I don't want to hijack the OP's thread, but I also stand by the sharpness of Stihl chains out of the box. I run some big chains on big saws, with a couple of almost 100cc saws, and have never had a Stihl yellow chain perform poorly when new.

Going over a factory fresh chain seems like an anally retentive example of diminishing returns to me. Taking the time to "maybe" improve them only marginally, only to cut wood for a short period and end up touching them up again anyway.

I pay a premium to run Stihl blades, and usually buy them in bulk, because they hold up better and last longer than other less expensive chains that I've run in the past. I'm not saying they are the best, but they do fine by me.

If you find it's worth your time and energy to go over a brand new chain, that's cool. I'll be sharpening my newly installed chains in an hour or two after installing it, so that's soon enough for me.

Knots said:

Is this the one you use?

http://www.amazon.com/Granberg-Bar-Mount-Chain-Sharpener-G-106B/dp/B0002ZY1WG

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Sorry for the delay, but our "cutting season" is in full force here now.

Yes, that's the guide I mentioned.. Please note that the pic shows it all kinds of backazzwards though. A bit of thought will sort it out for you. One common problem, it seems, with many users is to position the file too low in the gullets. About 1/5 of the file diam. should stand above the top of the cutters- that'll yield a durable edge.

DodgyNomad said:

After years of trial and error, I can say that I can hand file to a like new sharpness, and I sharpen my blades on the saw. Nothing that complicated, I've taught several people how to do it, with a simple round file and holder that has the angles marked on the plate.

My fundamentals include: 1. Tighten the chain, tighter than normal before you begin. I tighten mine usually as tight as I can but still able to rotate the blade by hand. This stops deflection and tilting of the blade in the bar when you're pushing the file. 2. Chucking the saw up in a vice, with the bar and chain perfectly horizontal. I have a big vice mounted on a hydraulic lift table that allows me to put it at an ideal height for me. 3. I always count my strokes, usually 3-4 per cutter on average. I do all the right cutters, then spin the vise around and do the left. I use a simple Stihl round file holder. 4. Lastly, I only hit my depth gauge's every 5th time I sharpen on average, and check them with a depth gauge tool.

By having my saw chucked up in a vice, and adjusted to an ideal, ergonomic filing position,with all my angles set and the bar perfectly horizontal, I'm able to put ideal, consistent strokes on each cutter.

Not that exotic, but I can keep a new blade cutting ribbons for a very long time, and take an old blade back to like new.

Lastly, I can sharpen a blade with this system in about 5 minutes. And, it's always easier to keep a new blade like new than it is to allow an old blade to get really dull. I usually touch mine up every other tankful as a rule. When you keep them this sharp, you can really feel each cutter, and tell if you have one that needs a bit more attention, just by the sound/vibration of the file going through.

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Wow, this ^^^^ written above, I could have written it verbatim myself. I clamp a vise on the cutting edge of my tractor bucket and I can set it to the most comfortable height for sharpening. I also really like the "Save Edge" files, they last a long time.

I rocked a chain this morning, cutting out some old spreading juniper shrubs for my folks. Five minutes with the hand file and vise and I had that chain cutting like a razor again. Five strokes per tooth and a single pass with the raker file.

+1 for the Timberline. Love it !

Wildo said:

Yes, you should touch up a new chain. You can definitely feel the difference.

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No, I should not. Maybe you should, but I certainly should not. I can run through six, or so tanks of fuel on a new chain before I get out the file. Now, I can put a decent edge on a chain, but once I have filed on one it will only last two or three tanks before hitting it with the file again, and it never cuts as well as it did when new.

New plane irons, new chisels, new knives, sure. But I am no where near that good on a saw chain.

I've found the rakers to be at least as important as the sharpening, if not more so...especially if they are neglected. The sharpest and most correct geometry chain tooth still won't cut worth a cent if it can't get into the wood.

Given that, I've found I can match the power of my saw, the wood I generally cut and the raker height to make a pretty good cutting chain. I've never formally tested the time, but I've never felt like a new chain was 70% better than a re-sharpened one.

Given the factory has no clue how much power your saw has, nor what wood you're cutting, I can't see how their 'generic' sharpening could be substantially better than a good 'tuned' sharpening.

I am going to jump in here and share my experience.

I used to file ONLY by hand and did not believe in grinding a chain. I used a bar mounted guide about 99% of the time. I could get chains noticeably sharper than new and noticed that the file would open the face of the tooth on the first sharpening. The factory grinder does not cut the entire face of the tooth. It leaves a good portion at the bottom. I know that most will say the bottom of the tooth doesn't matter, but it does, it absolutely does. The trick to using a file guide is putting the file in the right spot on the tooth, getting your angles right, and using your tooth length adjustment screw. File the worst tooth back to a good corner and set your screw. Now file every tooth until your screw stops the file from cutting. This is the correct way to use it. I dress my rakers to take as much wood as my saw has power to take without bogging. The factory rakers are much too tall for a fast cut, but the extra height does make for smoother plunge cuts. It is a trade off.

I eventually started cutting more wood and dirty wood and had to sharpen chains faster, so I bought a grinder. It was cheap, under powered, and burned chains like crazy.
I bought a better grinder and it works very well. It does not get the chains quite as sharp as a file (or perhaps it does, but the edge does not hold as long), but it is much faster and will save an impacted chain from the scrap bin. I don't like using a file to remove 1/4 tooth. The grinder will do it quickly and without overheating the tooth if you make multiple passes. I have been tempted to use water on the wheel. My new grinder paid for itself in a day by saving a decent handful of chains that were impacted. I was saving them, hoping to be able to fix them, and the new grinder did that for me.

Everyone sharpens a chain differently and some are better at it than others. I still prefer a file, but usually end up hitting something in a tree and the chain needs to be ground. Sharpen your chain however you want, but don't bash others for saying they can get a chain sharper than new, because you can.


I worked for a local tree service and the guys there could not file a chain right. The files were also kept in a bag in the back of a truck and got rained on and were very rusty. Not cool. I found teeth that were file backwards! The rakers were rarely touched. Those poor saws were always dull no matter what, and homeowners commented on it by saying that the saws sounded worn out and would ask why the chains would make blue smoke
I started filing all the chains and productivity multiplied by about 5x. I just could not stand waiting 1-5 minutes for each cut. NO kidding. The boss got after me one day for making something like 12 passes passes on rakers that were poorly neglected on a chain that looked like it had been in a camp fire. I spent a good hour bringing that chain back to life since it was the ONLY chain we had for that saw. I eventually quit the company for safety reasons. (It was not cool having tree tops dropped on me after being told the drop zone was clear/safe.)

I've discovered I am terrible at sharpening chains. BUT, I have gotten much better at handling the saw, so I get a lot more cutting done before the chain needs sharpening. I have 3 chains, when I put the last good one on, I drop the other 2 off at the local shop for sharpening. I've found that that will get me through most any situation. I'll either finish the work, or get tired, before needing another chain!

IMHO if you keep up with it (and avoid contact with bad things), your chain should work just as good down to the point when you start breaking teeth off. I generally sharpen lightly each and every tank of gas I run, whether it really needs it or not. Each sharpening is just two solid strokes (always pushing into the tooth) on each tooth, and takes no more than 5 minutes on my 81 DL chain. I would estimate that after about 12 light sharpenings, I'll then have to file the rakers down - this is a PITA, taking about an hour, but I generally only do this one time in the chain's life. After taking them down to about 50%, the chain will absolutely rip (sometimes causing the saw to bog in large logs).

Granted, most of my firewood comes from a log truck, already delimbed, but I estimate that I cut 15-20 cord on a single chain.

FWIW - I also find that I'll go through about 3 or 4 files per chain.