Thought I wanted a CB boiler

Hello everyone, I just found your site, and it's been great reading and information, but a bit overwhelming! I'll explain my situation, and see if you guys can make some comments and suggestions. This may be a little long winded, but please bare with me. It all started at the MN state fair, oh probably about 8-10 years or so ago, where on machinery hill they have places showing all kinds of things, and that included a couple brands of outdoor boilers. Being a hands on guy who loves 'stuff', I swung in and had a talk with them, they told me about their boilers, I thought it was kind of neat but a little 'out there' for my situation at the time, and went on my way. I go to the fair prob every 2-3 years, and seem to stop back and chat each time. Well, last year, I had an epiphany, and thought that maybe this was the year for me, because of the changes in my situation.

I have a mid 1960's 2 story colonial, 2900 sq/ft, orig windows,130k btu 94% efficient NG forced air furnace. I also built a 23x37 workshop out in the back yard, which I put wirsbo into, and am almost finished constructing (but don't have any of the heating equipment in yet, just the piping coming out of the floor going into the manifold at this point). I am also in the beginning stages of building a 2 story storage shed/playhouse sitting on cement columns and 3 8x8 beams(it's on a hill), it's 12'x16', 2x6 framed, was spray foamed under the lower level floor before the deck was placed as a single unit on the 3 beams, is fully insulated, and has wirsbo on both levels. From the spot where I had planned on installing the OWB, it is about a 125' or so run to the workshop, a 15' run to the storage shed, and about a 90' run to the house, plus whatever it takes to get it inside, maybe 10-20' on the bigger buildings. The line to the house goes one direction, the line to the workshop going in another direction would probably end up passing under the storage shed.

As it turns out, I may be in the situation where there's this friend of a friend that _may_ be able to get me one scratch and dent discounted from the factory, and save a few thousand on it. I was thinking that the e3200 would be decently sized for my situation (as I like to make things a little bigger/better than undersized/cheaper, but only if it makes sense of course), but then I came across this site, and all my presuppositions are quickly going out the window. First of all, the expensive pre made piping I initially thought was so great may not be the best way to go, esp in MN, as it seems that ppl have been using the foamed in trench method with better success. Also, from reading, it sounds like the CB brand has issues honoring their warranties, which is a Huge red flag for me. I spent a number of years doing appliance repair, and I have first hand experience with companies, and how they do or don't honor their warranties, and the indigestion that causes. It wouldn't be as big a deal on a $700-1000 dishwasher, but on a $10000+ heater, that is another matter entirely, because I can't imagine serious repairs on something like this come cheap.

From reading, there are a number of opinions on different makes that I've read, and the main reason I am doing this because I have access to unlimited 'free' wood, all I have to do (yeah, minor stuff, I know...) is cut, split, stack and dry it, and then load it into the furnace. I would only do an outdoor furnace, or not at all, I'm not interested in having one inside the house. I also read a little about the shoulder periods, which I honestly never even thought about, because in my mind all you did was go out and toss in a full load of wood every day or 2 from fall when you fired it up till spring when you shut it down, and that's all there was to it. Yeah, right, not so much. I also thought that it just ran at full tilt all the time, looks like wrong again. Turns out there's a lot more to it than just paying the NG bill every month. I knew that of course, but really didn't appreciate the scope of the project, nor the care and feeding.

Here are my (initial) questions. Is the boiler I am looking at properly sized for my application? Is CB in 2015 a decently designed outdoor boiler (you would think so, based upon their price...?), how do you deal with the shoulder seasons? I am planning on this being the primary heat source, and having the current NG furnace as the backup, if we go on a vaca, or I can't for whatever reason feed the hungry beast. Is 1 1/4 or 1 1/2" lines sufficient for my climate and BTU needs, or is bigger always better, and if so up to what point? Also what do you do to it when you shut it down in the spring, anything special to know? Any other things after reading this that you think I should consider would be great to hear about as well. As I said, this is turning out to be much more involved than I had initially expected, but definitely well within my skillset to implement, just need the background knowledge to be sure to spend all that money wisely, and to only do it Once!

Thanks everyone for reading this 'book', any comments/suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Thanks for the reply, and the idea. Unfortunately, the way both of those buildings are set up, it really wouldn't work out, but the thought of having warm wood, and adding it inside instead of out in -35 weather in the dead of winter does sound appealing, but unfortunately it wouldn't work. You mentioned increased smoldering, I take it that this is a bad thing, because of the lack of heat, and ability to catalyze the gasses making the unit much more smoky? If more frequent, any guesses as to how much more, if in normal times it'd be once a day or so I was told? 2x, or even more?

Thanks for the advice. I really don't have space in the shed for anything like that, and I'd be giving up so much precious space in my workshop if I put in a boiler with storage.. Is storage a real necessity for this type of system? I get it that it's a buffer, but a 1000 gallon tank has to be pretty big, and I just don't have space to spare in it. I already wish I had built it 30x40, but that's water long under the bridge at this point. I have maybe 1/2 to a year supply already split, but it's in piles, so probably hasn't dried as well yet as it could have if it had been properly stacked, but at least it's a start. And thanks for the welcome, you guys seem to be a great bunch. Glad I found you, I think I'm going to be getting a little nuts about this as I go along as well.

maple1 said:

The thread title implies you are having second thoughts about an OWB - are you considering another alternative choice and what would that be? Or are you rather looking for that alternative here? Which ever way you end up going with whatever, as long as you take everything into consideration when you make that decision, that is good. I think that is the main thing with this place - seen quite a few pass through here after making the wrong choice & not knowing what other choices they could have made. I was almost in that boat, found this place just in time & couldn't be happier.

Click to expand...

You're right, I think I kind of am, but am really into the info gathering mode at this moment. The comment above about if the wife would ever feed it (I let out a little laugh when I read that one) umm, no. As you stated, I really am here to try and make the proper decision. I'm in decent shape, and don't mind a bit of work now and again, but from some of the comments I really need to keep the whole ownership aspect in mind. Yes, I do have the time to spare for making the quantity of wood I'd need, but then, even free there is a cost to it all, as time is essentially money. Plus wear and tear on the equipment, etc. I do have the ability to fairly easily run NG to the workshop, and even to the shed, but not sure if I want to go with separate water heaters for both buildings, one big one outdoors sounded so much easier, esp if it didn't take up any valuable space in either building, and not having to buy multiple sets of equipment for each building (heaters, pumps, all that jazz).

I hit youtube and checked out a vid of pros and cons (that particular one wasn't all that informative, I'll keep looking for more on the subject), and also viewed a few others on OWB's, as well as reading a number of comments on the videos. Maybe I am just seeing the negative, but there seems to be a theme I've noticed of comments about warranty issues with Central Boilers, for example leaking after a couple years, less than adequate offers of repairs of said unit, things like that. I'm wondering if people here could give me their first hand experiences with them. As I said, I had worked in the appliance repair field, and one brand I worked on was Subzero. I remember reading Consumers Reports where they had a blurb once on high end fridges, and the recommendation was made to avoid them due to repair issues. Well, they have one of the best warranties in the business, and the sample size they must have had made the conclusions statistically inaccurate. They make one of the best fridges out there. Do they have issues? Of course, it's made by man, but from my experience less than other brands, and if within their generous warranty period, are covered. My point is that some people having issues may indicate there is a problem with the brand, or depending on the number of units out there, they also could be the squeaky wheel. Of course hearing that they don't honor their warranty does raise serious concerns, and if I was one of the unlucky folks who got a bad one, I'd be pretty pissed as well. That's why I'd like to hear both happy and unhappy owners of that brand, especially ones with the E series, and let me know how long you've owned it, and if you were happy with the whole purchase/install/operation of it.

Well, they are about 100' apart, so a foamed trench would def be possible. I am sort of getting the feeling from some of the discussion that I may be wasting my time, what with NG available and all that. It almost seems that heating this way is done by people because this is the least bad choice, burning wood that is. Maybe I had this misguided romantic (?) notion about being somewhat self sufficient, and would save a bunch of money (over the long run was the thought) on my NG bills each winter, if you exclude the $ value of time. As I've never had a unit like this, I probably don't appreciate all that goes into keeping the heat on, so I guess maybe I need to take some more time, and try reading more threads about the actual experience of owning and operating one of these things.

Contacted Minnegasco, here is the history they sent me, and as you can see, last winter was a bit colder than this year, but this would represent a decent average in costs. Only water heating and furnace are gas, all other appliances are electric.

READ DATE BILL DATE DAYS READING USAGE BILL AMT
04/20/2015 04/22/2015 33 2865 94THM $76.07
03/18/2015 03/23/2015 29 2784 163THM $130.62
02/17/2015 02/20/2015 29 2644 183THM $142.33
01/19/2015 01/22/2015 33 2487 226THM $183.96
12/17/2014 12/22/2014 30 2292 167THM $144.09
11/17/2014 11/20/2014 32 2148 106THM $95.99
10/16/2014 10/21/2014 29 2056 30THM $35.74
09/17/2014 09/22/2014 30 2030 16THM $23.85
08/18/2014 08/21/2014 31 2016 16THM $23.89
07/18/2014 07/23/2014 31 2002 15THM $23.86
06/17/2014 06/20/2014 32 1989 17THM $25.16
05/16/2014 05/21/2014 29 1974 53THM $54.24
04/17/2014 04/22/2014 30 1928 105THM $113.04
03/18/2014 03/21/2014 29 1837 173THM $187.28
02/17/2014 02/20/2014 31 1687 237THM $197.54
01/17/2014 01/22/2014 32 1480 220THM $169.25
12/16/2013 12/20/2013 31 1288 182THM $136.39
11/15/2013 11/20/2013 30 1128 83THM $69.15


Hmm, weird, in the edit screen, it's formatted perfectly, but when it hits the site, it apparently removed any extra spaces, and the formatting is whacked. oh well, you get an idea anyways.

True, but this doesn't include heating the workshop or the other outbuilding yet, they won't be on line till the coming fall/winter. I would expect the bill to be up at least 50% if not more, would your assessment still hold true? I guess you were looking at the yearly averages, I was looking at the nearly $200 monthly bills in the peak times in the dead of winter, when wood would reduce that to almost nothing. I'd still run NG the rest of the year when the boiler would be shut down. That's why I posted here, to get honest opinions, and to see if my reasoning makes sense or not. $800-1100/yr would make the straight financial payback on a $12k installed unit about 11-12 years, plus need to consider the care and feeding of the unit in the equation as well I suppose.

Couple clarifications, I would get the wood logs for free, usually 5-10 footers, but would have to cut it down to firebox size, and then of course split, stack, dry, feed the boiler and clean the ash, so yeah, there is some bit of work to do that's true. I already have wirsbo in the floor of both buildings, and I plan on doing a lot of woodworking in the larger one, and didn't want an overhead heater blowing dust everywhere, especially when staining and such, that's why I installed it in the slab before I poured it. I also have it in the floor of the shed, and do plan on heating both all winter, though the lower level of the shed is just being kept probably in the mid 40's to mid 50s, but the upper level will vary from the mid 50's when not occupied to prob around 70ish when I'm working out there. The larger one has sewer and water ran out to it, the smaller will have just water, though I plan on draining the lines to that one every fall, as they weren't installed to be freeze proof like the workshop. Boy, from the feedback I'm getting, it looks like an outdoor boiler may not be the wisest move, regardless of the cost of the fuel.

Yeah, thinking about that, you're right, it'll be pretty much be set at whatever temp I want it to be, because I plan on working out there on a regular basis. Oh well, consider my Cheerios pee'd in. Guess I'll run that NG line out there this summer, and start looking for a decent efficiency boiler that can handle both buildings. Anyone have any experience with them, who could steer me in the right direction? I know this forum is the antithesis of that, but I also know ppl have many life experiences, so it doesn't hurt to ask...