Pellet Stove, or wait?

Martlet · Jun 26, 2015

I recently just moved to NH. I live in the middle of nowhere with some decent land. Currently my house only has an oil furnace and forced hot water. The last owners hovered around 900 gallons of oil used per year, and I can lock in at about 2.75/gal. The house has 3 zones, downstairs, upstairs, and in-law

About the house: It's about 2200 square feet. The downstairs is fairly open, with the exception of an in-law (not a true in-law) with living room, bedroom, and bathroom that is off the living room with a standard door (we haven't decided how to use it yet, possibly a den and office). The bedrooms are upstairs off a hallway at the top of the stairs.

I'd like to install some type of alternative heat. The house doesn't have a chimney, and the only decent place to put one is off the in-law. That isn't the ideal place to put an alternate heat source, since it misses most of the house. There could be a chimney run to the basement, but that doesn't help much either. The upside is I have years worth of wood outside that just costs sweat and chainsaw gas.

I'm considering a pellet stove in the living room, but I've never had one. I can't decide if it would offer significant savings. If I installed door fans, I could likely spread the heat throughout the downstairs and upstairs hallway. Would that save a significant amount of oil? How many tons of pellets would I burn? If I spent $1000 on pellets and cut my fuel bill in half, that would give me a net savings of $240 or so. It would take 20 years to recognize a total savings if prices all remained equal. The sales guy I spoke to today said he burned 7 tons of pellets and reduced his oil usage by 2 tanks. That means it costs him $500 a year to use pellets. He'd save money by sticking with oil.

Has anyone run these calculations? With a house that size, would I see a greater savings than half my oil bill? Help?

begreen · Jun 26, 2015

Welcome. I would explore the option of a wood stove too, especially if extended power outages are possible. That could be the most cost effective option, especially if you have a large woods surrounding the house.

Is there any chance of going straight up from the living room and through the second floor to the roof? The upstairs part could be boxed in a chase or tucked in a closet with a chase if possible. That's what we did in our house. If you want to explore the wood stove option separately, post again in the wood stove and fireplace forum here. Pictures are always welcome together with floor plan sketches.

Martlet · Jun 26, 2015

In these pictures, the corner to the left of the sliding glass door is where the chimney guy said the pellet stove would be best.

Pictures: to the right of the slider is a closed closet door and an open bathroom door, which is actually in the short hall to the kitchen. To the left of where I took the picture is the door to the in-law. The second picture is the stairway with cathedral ceiling to the upstairs. It was taken at a 90 degree turn to the right from where the first was. To the left of the stairs is the television, then the hall from the previous picture. Behind the stairs is the dining room, which is an open concept with the kitchen. Behind me is the door to the in-law and to my left is the slider from the first picture.

The chimney guy said he could put a wood stove against the stairs and run the chimney up the cathedral, but that would be the only really good option. Due to the layout upstairs, anything else would disrupt a room. It was his suggestion to do the pellet stove by the slider.

begreen · Jun 26, 2015

The den may be a good location if this is where the family spends most of their time. You'll have to decide that. Remember that this is an area heater. I am dubious about heating the main house from this location.

Martlet · Jun 26, 2015

Thanks. We don't spend any time in the den, really. We spend more time in the living room. I don't think it would heat the main house, either. Certainly the living room, and probably the kitchen/dining room with a fan. The den/office/bathroom could get some heat, but we'd likely be better off just turning down that zone and closing the door. It isn't used much. I shower/change there in the morning so I don't wake the family up. Some heat would likely filter upstairs, but not much. I'm just trying to figure out if it would lower my oil usage, how much I could expect, and how many pellets that would take.

It's virtually impossible to tell without doing it, I guess. It would nice to see if anyone had accomplished something similar.

begreen · Jun 26, 2015

Can you post a sketch of the 1st and 2nd floor plans? They don't have to be a work of art or dead-on accurate.

billb3 · Jun 26, 2015

Oil @ $2.75/gal = $28.00/million BTU
Wood pellets @ $280/ton = $24.00/mBTU
that's both appliances @ 70% efficiency if your boiler is newer and 85% then
Oil @ $2.75/gal= $23+/mBTU

Wood (hardwood) @ $250/cord is about $16/mBTU

At minimum the wood stove should heat the downstairs which is probably one zone and 1/3 of your heat. You might get lucky and it heats 50% of upstairs and 20% 0f the side room.

mithesaint · Jun 28, 2015

Spend the money on insulation and air-sealing instead. Pellets are too close in price to oil to make the investment in a pellet stove worthwhile right now IMHO.

smwilliamson · Jun 28, 2015

mithesaint said:
Spend the money on insulation and air-sealing instead. Pellets are too close in price to oil to make the investment in a pellet stove worthwhile right now IMHO.

The savings in pellets vs oil also takes I to consideration the efficency of the heater, the house and the location of the heater. Even at today's oil prices a well situated pellet stove can swing overall savings 30 or 40 percent per year

Don2222 · Jun 28, 2015

Hello Neighbor
What town are you in?
I use 3-4 tons of pellets here in the whole winter season in Salem NH and not one drop of oil to heat the entire 2200 Sq ft split. I bought my stoves used and they savings were instant! There are good used and refurbished pellet stoves around and the expertise here in the forum will really help you out. Good luck!

bogieb · Jun 29, 2015

I happen to have a St. Croix Hastings for sale

. It runs good and kept my 950 sq/ft main floor toasty warm - actually used it yesterday. Sure, it probably won't keep 2200 sq/ft warm, but it looks nice and is perfect for a living room. I got a great deal on something with a larger hopper - the Hastings will go 12-16 hours on a really cold/windy day when it fired all day.

FWIW - I ran two pellet stove (one in basement too). The basement stove never worked hard (it is too big for that space but my house is really cut up room-wise, so the heat doesn't circulate well), and I ran the Hastings upstairs; it was on a thermostat so would shut down when heat wasn't called for. On super cold days I would run it so that it idled when no heat was called for and then cranked back up when heat was called for. I used about 5 tons and didn't use any propane (except DHW and cooking).

Bkins · Jun 29, 2015

Might also take a look at pellet boilers. This way you have all your areas covered with heat. It would be more expensive in the beginning but you would have even heat. Keep in mind that a pellet stove, for the most part, is a space heater only and if the air flow out of the area where you install it isn't real good you will end up with cold areas in your home. There are not that many people that are successful using fans to move the heat.

You might also look at a wood boiler since you have the fuel. Wood is very dirty and very time consuming to use. Oil prices won't stay at these levels forever so you need to think about that also. When oil gets into the $4 range you will be thanking yourself for picking one of the other heat sources.

If your area will allow it a outdoor boiler would be the way I would go as it keeps the mess out of the house and I belive it will also allow you to burn bigger logs. One thing to keep in mind using wood is you need to be at least 2 years ahead on the supply end to make sure your wood is dry.

CleanFire · Jun 29, 2015

Martlet said:
I'd like to install some type of alternative heat. The house doesn't have a chimney, and the only decent place to put one is off the in-law.

Pellet stove venting cost will be less $$$ vs. a full chimney..

Martlet said:
The upside is I have years worth of wood outside that just costs sweat and chainsaw gas.

If you have the time, ability, desire, and proper equipment (safety 1st!) to process your own wood, that will -always- win, every time.

Martlet said:
I'm just trying to figure out if it would lower my oil usage, how much I could expect, and how many pellets that would take.

A conversion factor of (115) posted on the EPA website seems to work well: multiply the oil price per gallon, e.g.: $2.76 x 115 = $317.40 to find the "break-even" price of a ton of pellets, vs. oil heat cost.

Martlet said:
If I spent $1000 on pellets and cut my fuel bill in half, that would give me a net savings of $240 or so. It would take 20 years to recognize a total savings if prices all remained equal. The sales guy I spoke to today said he burned 7 tons of pellets and reduced his oil usage by 2 tanks. That means it costs him $500 a year to use pellets. He'd save money by sticking with oil.

re: Sales guy, I'm guessing he paid less $$$ for his pellets than we would: even a small difference in price, spread over that use, makes a difference in savings. Without knowing the size of the heating space / size of the heater / system efficiency, his estimate of (2) tanks of oil ( 550 gals/oil ) savings is not unreasonable: that is about what we would have offset in usage here, if we started burning pellets earlier.

From experience, I'm pretty sure the living space he was heating was definitely warmer, vs. using oil only, by at least 5 degrees average.

--

Having processed and burned cord wood for several years, convenience-wise, pellets win. That is -not- to say wood stoves are inconvenient, it's just processing and preparing cord wood requires more work on your part, vs. opening a bag of prepared wood, in pellet form, to feed your stove.

But you pay for that convenience. Every hand that touches (and moves) a pellet bag before you receive it needs to make a profit, for the business model to be viable.

Current oil prices have lowered the savings to even or slightly biased towards using oil for heating.

What the numbers will not tell you, is the quality of heat is constant, the area heated will be warmer (it is a space heater after all), and having the option of an alternate heating source, with available backup (generator) power is a great stress relief during the winter months.

* Being new to NH, you should be aware that about every 10 years there will be a weather event significant enough to cause a power outage of 1 day or more, as you live in the woods, expect a multi-day / or week power outage event: before considering an alternate heat source, I would highly recommend ensuring you have ability to maintain your existing systems, using off-grid emergency generator power.

Having a boiler gives you more options: you could install a pellet stove for space heating, a wood stove for space heating, a pellet boiler inside the basement for home heating & hot water, a wood boiler outside (or inside) for home heating & hot water.

In our area:

Outdoor wood boiler units are popular here as an alternate heat source, but require a sizable up-front investment to install, if not equipped to do the work yourself.

Wood stoves are plentiful, and popular, but more folks seem to be purchasing bulk wood by the cord, vs. processing themselves.

Pellet stoves are increasing in popularity, as folks get older & change out wood stoves.

Martlet · Jul 2, 2015

CleanFire said:
Pellet stove venting cost will be less $$$ vs. a full chimney..

If you have the time, ability, desire, and proper equipment (safety 1st!) to process your own wood, that will -always- win, every time.

A conversion factor of (115) posted on the EPA website seems to work well: multiply the oil price per gallon, e.g.: $2.76 x 115 = $317.40 to find the "break-even" price of a ton of pellets, vs. oil heat cost.

re: Sales guy, I'm guessing he paid less $$$ for his pellets than we would: even a small difference in price, spread over that use, makes a difference in savings. Without knowing the size of the heating space / size of the heater / system efficiency, his estimate of (2) tanks of oil ( 550 gals/oil ) savings is not unreasonable: that is about what we would have offset in usage here, if we started burning pellets earlier.

From experience, I'm pretty sure the living space he was heating was definitely warmer, vs. using oil only, by at least 5 degrees average.

--

Having processed and burned cord wood for several years, convenience-wise, pellets win. That is -not- to say wood stoves are inconvenient, it's just processing and preparing cord wood requires more work on your part, vs. opening a bag of prepared wood, in pellet form, to feed your stove.

But you pay for that convenience. Every hand that touches (and moves) a pellet bag before you receive it needs to make a profit, for the business model to be viable.

Current oil prices have lowered the savings to even or slightly biased towards using oil for heating.

What the numbers will not tell you, is the quality of heat is constant, the area heated will be warmer (it is a space heater after all), and having the option of an alternate heating source, with available backup (generator) power is a great stress relief during the winter months.

* Being new to NH, you should be aware that about every 10 years there will be a weather event significant enough to cause a power outage of 1 day or more, as you live in the woods, expect a multi-day / or week power outage event: before considering an alternate heat source, I would highly recommend ensuring you have ability to maintain your existing systems, using off-grid emergency generator power.

Having a boiler gives you more options: you could install a pellet stove for space heating, a wood stove for space heating, a pellet boiler inside the basement for home heating & hot water, a wood boiler outside (or inside) for home heating & hot water.

In our area:

Outdoor wood boiler units are popular here as an alternate heat source, but require a sizable up-front investment to install, if not equipped to do the work yourself.

Wood stoves are plentiful, and popular, but more folks seem to be purchasing bulk wood by the cord, vs. processing themselves.

Pellet stoves are increasing in popularity, as folks get older & change out wood stoves.

Very good information, thank you! I will put a wood stove in the basement eventually, but I have some work to do down there first.

The pellet stove guy just left my house. He actually said I probably shouldn't get one this year. Based on the price of oil and the price of pellets, he said I likely wouldn't save much, if any, money. I thought that was odd, but appreciated his candor. Pellets seem to be about $275/ton and he said I'd likely need 5-6 tons. If I use NO oil for heat, 1 tank for hot water, and burn 6 tons of pellets then I'd be at the same cost as heating with oil.

smwilliamson · Jul 3, 2015

Martlet said:
Very good information, thank you! I will put a wood stove in the basement eventually, but I have some work to do down there first.

The pellet stove guy just left my house. He actually said I probably shouldn't get one this year. Based on the price of oil and the price of pellets, he said I likely wouldn't save much, if any, money. I thought that was odd, but appreciated his candor. Pellets seem to be about $275/ton and he said I'd likely need 5-6 tons. If I use NO oil for heat, 1 tank for hot water, and burn 6 tons of pellets then I'd be at the same cost as heating with oil.

You could employ people that are producing a domestic fuel and not a bunch of Arabs but I digress....

maple1 · Jul 3, 2015

smwilliamson said:
You could employ people that are producing a domestic fuel and not a bunch of Arabs but I digress....

So there are no Americans working in the oil industry?

moey · Jul 3, 2015

smwilliamson said:
You could employ people that are producing a domestic fuel and not a bunch of Arabs but I digress....

Most our oil is produced domestically. About 20-30% is imported. The US would be fairly close to producing all of its oil domestically if they did not export any to Canada. That said I cant think of any pellets imported except for Canadian ones.

Grisu · Jul 3, 2015

moey said:
The US would be fairly close to producing all of its oil domestically if they did not export any to Canada.

Not sure why from all countries you are picking on our Canadian neighbors but it seems a bit off the mark. Canada is a net oil exporter to the US. In fact, it exports about 4 times as much crude oil (most of it to the US) than it imports. In 2014 its imports from the US saw indeed a spike to 300,000 barrels a day. (https://www.neb-one.gc.ca/nrg/ntgrtd/mrkt/snpsht/2014/11-01lmprt-eng.html) With US consumption of ~15 mill barrels a day you are talking about 2% of the crude oil used by the US. A bit far off from "20 to 30%" being imported.

Canada is also a major exporter of wood products including pellets: https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/forests/industry/products-applications/13736
In 2014, Canada imported ~22,717 metric tons of pellets from the US while exporting close to 10x more (218,889 metric tons) to the US.

smwilliamson · Jul 3, 2015

moey said:
Most our oil is produced domestically. About 20-30% is imported. The US would be fairly close to producing all of its oil domestically if they did not export any to Canada. That said I cant think of any pellets imported except for Canadian ones.

What favor coolaid are you sipping on? I don't know the numbers but most of domestic oil we produce doesn't come anywhere near the amount we consume.

billb3 · Jul 3, 2015

27% net imports for 2014
net= imports minus exports

was
40% in 2012

we're exporting a small amount of Alaska crud again since the ban was lifted.

despite a ban on exporting oil to foreign countries, exports to Canada are an exception. We're shipping a lot of Texas oil to Canada, which then gets exported elsewhere.

Canada would also like to use the Keystone pipeline to sell/ship their crude out of Houston and/or expand their east/west capacity. They used to sell almost exclusively to the U.S. but they have more than we can use right now too.

begreen · Jul 3, 2015

We import so much"crude" oil because we also export "refined oil products" a lot. That is to keep refineries running at 100% capacity 24/7. We sell a lot of oil to the highest bidder which is no longer the US. Look at sales of distillates like diesel. The justification for the Keystone pipeline was primarily to supply Gulf Coast refineries tar sands crude to be converted to diesel for sale to Europe and Asia that will pay a higher price than domestic markets.
http://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2014/10/28/why-is-the-u-s-still-importing-so-much-oil/

moey · Jul 3, 2015

smwilliamson said:
What favor coolaid are you sipping on? I don't know the numbers but most of domestic oil we produce doesn't come anywhere near the amount we consume.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/bar...imported-oil-will-make-just-21-us-consumption

US will surpass Saudi Arabia as the worlds largest oil producer soon like it or not we produce a boat load of oil domestically.

Pellet Stove, or wait?

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