Solar PV and Wind - Managing Grid Usage

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jebatty

jebatty

Minister of Fire
Jan 1, 2008
5,796
Northern MN
Maybe I missed this, but I have not seen mention as to the ease or difficulty in shutting down or starting up PV and wind generation capacity. For my own PV system, a simple switch turns it off from the grid, and vice versa. I have passed wind farms with inactive turbines. It would seem offhand that PV and wind can be started up or shut down incrementally as needed to allay the need in many situations to speed up or slow down the big coal fired steam turbine grid power to meet demand, as well as a need to fire up or shut supplemental gas turbines. Smart management at the production location of PV and wind may greatly reduce the the off cited issue of too much or too little PV and/or wind energy.
 
As long as the sun is shining and the wind a'blowin'. How about the utility shuts off your load remotely? That'd solve it.
 
I saw a nice study on this question a couple years back: Can we go to higher renewable grid penetration % if we are willing to curtail PV or wind power when there is an excess?

The answer was that a bit of curtailment could allow significantly higher RE energy fractions (like 40% versus 25%) without storage, and with modest increases in RE cost (per kWh), like less than 50% (e.g. due to 33% curtailment).

This was back when there was an active debate about how to build out a high RE fraction grid without mass storage and its feasibility, as mass storage was assumed to be either impossible, or to increase costs by >3X (per kWh). In that world you don't just stop building RE capacity when you hit 100% of average grid demand (which would be only 25-30% energy penetration), it pays to go a bit further, sell a good bit more energy and curtail a little, 'wasting' the RE.

With the falling (projected) price of grid storage, these sorts of studies have dried up...most in the field assume affordable grid storage will be here before 20% RE energy fraction.

In my understanding, utility-scale wind and solar all can be curtailed by the grid controller as part of the contract. Homeowners don't do this. This has been part of the problem in Hawaii, lots of rooftop solar feeding a grid, and no curtailment/control.
 
Utilities need to make a substantial investment in supplemental power and incur costs when that power stands idle, plus maintenance costs and operating costs, whether it be by slowing down the base line turbines or firing up supplemental gas turbines. As a homeowner I have made a substantial investment in my PV at no cost to the utility. It would seem that there is an avenue to work with the utility for investment return if I granted the utility the right to manage my system, particularly the output that exceeded my own demand.

Many utility stocks are paying dividends in the 4-5% range. Wouldn't it make sense for the utility, in exchange for a right to manage my excess power, to make use of my investment and pay me a "use of investment" dividend for my excess power? This isn't net metering, but could be combined in creative ways. I'm going through a brain flush right now.
 
So, you built excess capacity and now want to get paid for not using it, by 'others'.

What are these new utility scale energy storage devices? Fancy/huge batteries?
 
The idea is to consider whether there is a business opportunity for utilities to use the money of "others" to build and maintain at the cost of "others" renewable energy system which provide 100% clean air and water for "others" at a 100% reduction of carbon into the atmosphere for the 100% benefit of "others," all in exchange for a management agreement with the utility for a "dividend" which the utility is paying anyway to "others" on its stock or bond issues, which stock or bond issues the utility has issued to obtain the money of "others" and then uses that money to pollute the air and water on which "others" depend for healthy lives and potentially destroy life as we know it through climate change.

The inquiry remains, is there a viable business opportunity which "others" might see in this scenario?
 
velvetfoot said:
So, you built excess capacity and now want to get paid for not using it, by 'others'.

What are these new utility scale energy storage devices? Fancy/huge batteries?
Click to expand...

The oldest form of storage is pumped water storage, like in Niagara, NY.... they soak up excess capacity at night by pumping a huge reservoir full of water... and let the water run through turbines during the day...
 
Carbon Dioxide is EVIL? CLIMATE CHANGE? OOOOOOOOOO.
I'm sure if you jigger the numbers and believe certain things, any amount of money spent on solar, or any program in your world view, is worth it. Any amount.
If you want it, spend your own money. Nobody is stopping you. Just keep your hand out of my pocket for all your programs.
 
So much anger ....
 
velvetfoot said:
Carbon Dioxide is EVIL? CLIMATE CHANGE? OOOOOOOOOO.
I'm sure if you jigger the numbers and believe certain things, any amount of money spent on solar, or any program in your world view, is worth it. Any amount.
If you want it, spend your own money. Nobody is stopping you. Just keep your hand out of my pocket for all your programs.
Click to expand...
jebatty said:
So much anger ....
Click to expand...

Keep it civil guys and don't jump to conclusions that may be erroneous. I got lost in the "others" trail in figuring out whether they were independent investors, a division of the utility, ? I could go on a diatribe about Ontario Hydro charging the residents on the grid here to pay down the debt for the huge overages on the nukes and delivery charges ... all while selling electricity to other jurisdictions for a lesser cost per Kwh than I pay ... but I'll refrain from that==c;lol
 
jebatty said:
So much anger ....
Click to expand...
How much of your 12.3kw system was subsidized by ratepayers and taxpayers?
Now, you want to be paid to not produce electricity?

Of course, my crabbiness may the result of the Mets' relievers blowing a fine starting pitcher's effort last night.
 
velvetfoot said:
subsidized by ratepayers and taxpayers?
Click to expand...
Interesting assumptions ... Those decisions are often made by state utility companies and dictated by state legislators and their "green" policies. If he was able to make an investment in a philosophy he agrees with and there were financial incentives, it does not warrant your crabbiness.

Have you received financial incentives for your heating choices? If you haven't, others have ... same difference.
 
Lake Girl said:
Interesting assumptions ... Those decisions are often made by state utility companies and dictated by state legislators and their "green" policies. If he was able to make an investment in a philosophy he agrees with and there were financial incentives, it does not warrant your crabbiness.
Click to expand...
Yes, it is politics, and it most assuredly warrants my crabbiness.


Lake Girl said:
Have you received financial incentives for your heating choices? If you haven't, others have ... same difference.
Click to expand...
No, I haven't. Same difference? How do you arrive at that?
 
velvetfoot said:
Yes, it is politics, and it most assuredly warrants my crabbiness.
...
No, I haven't. Same difference? How do you arrive at that?
Click to expand...
Just as long as the crabbiness is directed at those politicians that make those decisions ... not the folks that take advantage of them.

Did you receive any tax rebates? Some states had incentives to change heat source ...https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/kedel-pellet-boiler.127374/#post-1713970 Not sure if NY did but same difference statement would be your tax dollars at work...
 
Lake Girl said:
Just as long as the crabbiness is directed at those politicians that make those decisions ... not the folks that take advantage of them.
Click to expand...
Folks elect politicians who theoretically do the will of the folks.

Lake Girl said:
Did you receive any tax rebates? Some states had incentives to change heat source ...https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/kedel-pellet-boiler.127374/#post-1713970 Not sure if NY did but same difference statement would be your tax dollars at work...
Click to expand...
Nope. Not at that time for pellet boilers in NY. Hey, but I spent 15 grand of my own money and some sweat to be carbon neutral, right? Do I get a gold star? How about if I get some money from the federal government to not burn pellets this winter and burn oil instead to help the hurting oil industry? It's like getting money for not planting crops.

My tax dollars at work, yeah. Doing stuff for everyone but me.
 
Sure is difficult to get this discussion to focus on the original question:

is utility managed PV of privately financed systems in exchange for a "dividend" (payment for the contractual right to manage) a viable business opportunity?
 
I know in Ontario, Hydro One was paying a much higher rate per Kwh from privately owned/financed PV systems that were tied to the grid as it aligned with their "green" energy policy that aimed at removing coal fired plants in Atikokan and Nanicoke. This allowed for a greater/faster ROI ... essentially a dividend.

Do you receive an equal rate for each Kwh that goes to the grid as what you would pay for it? If you receive a higher rate per Kwh than you would normally pay, you are receiving a dividend on your investment...
 
The answer may be utility specific. The idea is a business model that would be viable for a generating utility to cooperate with private PV on a voluntary basis.
 
Does the electric utility still own generation in your state? Here the state made them divest all generation and created an Independent System Operator.
 
jebatty said:
Sure is difficult to get this discussion to focus on the original question:

is utility managed PV of privately financed systems in exchange for a "dividend" (payment for the contractual right to manage) a viable business opportunity?
Click to expand...

The answer is that there may be value to the utility to be able to curtail rooftop PV. Right now with the scale of rooftop PV, I would guess it doesn't pay, based on the fact that it isn't done. In the future, perhaps.
 
jebatty said:
Sure is difficult to get this discussion to focus on the original question:
Click to expand...

Not at this time in my state (FL). I did get a $9 credit last month for the providing the utility with the ability to disconnect my A/C compressor for limited durations. Giving my utility the ability to control my PV system in the same manner that they control my A/C would be silly when my utility has hundreds of acres of their own PV arrays. Let them control their own PV, it's centralized and easy for them to get to.

My electric company also offers a program where they can remotely control an electric water heater. I forget what the incentive for that program was: $2/mo (IIRC). If my water heater had standard 4500W elements in it, limiting the use of my WH would actually provide more swing load than controlling my 4.4kW PV array.

Without any corporate intervention, I already do a fairly good job of curtailing my own net metered output by running a timer on my electric water heater to cycle it ON during my hours of peak output. Running a 1500W lower element means I get a lengthy ON time to bring the 50 gallon WH back to max temp.
 
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