Rushed decision - making the wrong choice?

tyanta · Aug 26, 2015

Hey everyone, new here but I spent 3+ hours last night reading posts instead of sleeping. I'll see if I can condense my situation for hopefully some quick advice.

1. Bought current 13yr old 2500sqft 2 story home with finished basement 2 years ago in Northern Ontario, Canada. It's heated w/ 900l interior oil tank, radiant heat in the basement (running off oil water heater) & stand alone wood stove in the basement & insert on the main floor.

2. Previous owners said they spent $2600/year in 2012/2013 on oil but heated primarily with wood for the first 10 years. (Injury prevented further wood heating). Our first Year's bill was $4300 or so. 2nd year I was working from home so I kept both fireplaces running (filling every few hours) 24/7 and we still froze. There is no way that stand-alone stove heated the whole house.

3. I'm done freezing and I no longer work from home. My uncle bought a OWB (Heatmore 400 series) 10 years ago, said he was happy with the service of the local dealer. I didn't do the usual research I would do; met the Heatmor dealer and started planning for the install, quoted at $17k w/o labor. : /

4. Winter is coming. I have several cord of wood left over from last year that should be better seasoned this year. I have to purchase my wood; cut and split is $90/face cord. I have 3 acres of land so the odd downed tree will likely add to what I burn. Yesterday I cleared some trees to build a woodshed that I intended to face the OWB into (so I can load it from "inside"). Tomorrow I have a backhoe coming to dig the ~60' trench.

5. All was well until I started reading more about gasification and how the choice I've made is "old school". Heatmor's new X series is too new for me, not interested in a first gen furnace. That + being able to burn wood that may not be perfect, the lower maintenance costs, less time cleaning etc. were all reasons I chose the older waterjacket style. But is it the wrong choice?

Last night I got reading about gasification, choosing a brand that's known for them (no idea if they're available in Ontario yet), hooking up to external water tanks, and indoor wood boilers.... along with the thought of using an IWB, outdoors.

Suddenly, I'm lost & wondering if I should even be digging my trench tomorrow! Any input would be appreciated.

maple1 · Aug 26, 2015

About the only think I can think to say is keep reading. This is a pretty big investment and shouldn't be rushed - even with winter almost around the corner. You will have to live with the decision for (hopefully) a lot of winters after this coming one, after all. If you are doubtful, I would pause even the digging. (So on the digging and a simple item for starters - do you know exactly what kind of underground piping the dealer is going to use?)

Personally, I would not install an OWB. But everyone has differing priorities & preferences - you will have to educate yourself on all the options & fit to your situation.

Do you know how much wood your uncle burns per year? Similar houses?

maple1 · Aug 26, 2015

I'll add a bit more, thinking about all the reading I did & what I went through. Depending on whether you want the wood & boiler inside or out, I would use an indoor gassing boiler either in the basement, or an outbuilding. With the winters wood beside it in the same space. Storage in the basement. Inside/outside each have their +/-'s. My install was around $15k CDN, doing almost all of it myself. A 20 year old 2700 sq.ft. two storey + 1500 unfinished basement, on open exposed hilltop. Use about 6 cord/year of mixed wood (soft + hard). Electric boiler for backup - but we rarely use it, and didn't at all last winter.

tyanta · Aug 26, 2015

Thanks for your opinion. Can you elaborate? If an OWB isn't the way you would go, what would your choice be and why? I'm feeling the same. I need to halt this project until I do more time researching.

The piping.. the name is evading me now but I've seen it; it's a good 6" in diameter & looks to be well insulated. I can report back with exactly what we were talking about. I do recall it being quite expensive.

Not similar houses; he's in an old breezy farmhouse. He went with the 400 with the intent of one day heating a 2nd house but that's no longer in the cards. Regardless, he burns 18 cord of wood a year. Last year in my stove / insert I believe I went through about 15 and froze.

My heating options are limited because:
1. Right now, I'm bringing wood in through the walk-out, bring just under a face cord of wood inside at a time, twice a week, in a wood box just inside the door. The wood stove is on the same wall so only 1/4 of the (carpeted) basement gets dirty.
2. My furnace room is in the middle of the basement of my house. With a finished basement, that makes bringing wood into the furnace room problematic (if I were to find a wood burning solution in there). Not to mention the dirt, there's no real room for wood storage in there either.
3. My problem right now is getting the heat from existing fireplaces distributed throughout the house. The idea of an OWB was nice because it gets the wood outside while tying into the existing HVAC system.

My priorities would ideally be:
1. Load.& go
2. Keeping wood out of the house
3. Minimal maintenance
4. Efficient burn since I'm buying wood - assuming wood is the answer
5. Being able to leave the house for a week or so at a time in the winter w/o worrying of anything freezing / bursting.

tyanta · Aug 26, 2015

Just saw your 2nd post maple. Sounds like our houses aren't that far off in terms of comparability. I'm guessing you mean 6 bush cord? That's impressive. What do you do when you're away for any length of time in the winter?

I saw mention of putting indoor unit in an outbuilding. My current house / garage doesn't really seem to support such a setup internally (unless I'm not thinking of a proper solution) but I'd be willing to build a separate building. With an indoor unit outdoors, is distance from the house any more of a concern?

BoiledOver · Aug 26, 2015

As @maple1 stated, due to the gravity of the project it should not be a hastened decision.

There will be quite a difference in firewood used between what your uncle is using and the setup that maple1 has (or any wood gasification boiler). It may be possible for you to heat your house with just 8 cords using a gasification boiler that has water storage (and be warm instead of chilly). You will find from your research here that water storage is premium when using a gasser. Some folks have erected a building just for their boiler. If you were to consider such an undertaking, a Garn might be worth looking at, they have the water storage built in. The Garn boiler will require a larger structure than a Varm, Eko, Tarm and such due to its water capacity.

Other system designs to consider: A small structure for the boiler and, some firewood, with the water storage placed in your basement. Any heat loss at storage would be given to warm the home. Or, maybe your basement would fit a Garn. Install a boiler now and add storage later (this I mention only due to your time constraints with the heating season so close). Those that have done this will probably say no, no, no. Once they work with storage they wish they had done it sooner.

Imagine this. Your woodpile within 7 meters of your boiler in an outbuilding. Your firewood loading chore happening just once per day during the dead of winter, in the fall and spring maybe once every 3rd day.

Do not be afraid to ask any question that comes to mind. There are some highly experienced boiler operators here and some all around heating experts too.

I wish you all the best in your planning and implementation.

velvetfoot · Aug 26, 2015

Unless a house is a big ranch with a full basement, I find it hard to believe that a wood boiler with storage would be compatible with a finished basement. Pellets are cleaner and more automatic, but the pellets take up room.

If you're spending 270 for a cord for firewood, maybe that would be comparable to the cost of pellets where you live. Even oil is pretty cheap down here NOW in the NE US. For comparison, http://www.eia.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls

brenndatomu · Aug 26, 2015

tyanta said:
Our first Year's bill was $4300 or so. 2nd year I was working from home so I kept both fireplaces running (filling every few hours) 24/7 and we still froze

Many fireplaces are single digit, some even as bad as negative efficiency.

tyanta said:
4. Efficient burn since I'm buying wood - assuming wood is the answer

If your are gonna buy wood maybe consider a pellet boiler?

tyanta said:
5. Being able to leave the house for a week or so at a time in the winter w/o worrying of anything freezing / bursting.

Won't the existing furnace work for that?

BoiledOver said:
As @maple1 stated, due to the gravity of the project it should not be a hastened decision.

+1 ^^^

tyanta · Aug 26, 2015

Thanks for everyone's input. I took half the day off to do more research, make more phone calls and canvas the neighbourhood. Most of the people around here use propane. The neighbor we just came from the one neighbour with a house half the size and they're paying $300/month. Someone suggested a propane boiler... but I just don't trust propane for our purposes. Someone mentioned heat pump + propane boiler but... just too many unknowns there for my liking. As much as I like the idea of not having to worry about / prep / handle wood, I prefer the idea of 1k for a year's worth of wood and a bit of work in comparison to have a comfortable home & heated 3 car garage.

The maximizer in me has a geothermal installer coming out to help rule that option out. The reading I've done on pellet stoves here makes me worried about supply issues / cost. (Granted I haven't looked specifically at pellet boilers).

So the mission is back to wood. Regardless of furnace, I still need a trench so I think I'm going ahead with that much. Worst case, I fill it back in.

I spoke with a reseller of PolarFurnaces and he claimed that a storage setup is a thing of the past; gasification units hold way more water than they used to which acts as the buffer?

Are gassers harder/more time consuming to light? The conclusion from the conversation with the PolarFurnaces rep was that while the traditional furnaces have their place / function, for me, buying wood, gasser would be the way to go.

@BoiledOver - the Garm, from pictures I've seen will not fit in my basement (without ruining the flow). The things look massive! Likewise, the indoor storage idea wouldn't really work without some serious changes.

@brenndatomu - I feel like my existing fireplace setups could possibly fall in the negative efficiency category - as sad as that is. Yes, existing furnace would be my backup when away. I guess it depends on temp differential. If the pump is keeping the water moving and house water is what keeps the lines from freezing... I have previously only kept temps around 10c when away. Seems to me that it may not be warm enough to prevent freezing at the boiler? I'm told Glycol is quite expensive too...

So I'm still deciding then between a Heatmore 400 series or *some* gasification system. I keep seeing the "big" names being thrown around here but they all seem to have their unique attributes. I suppose the ultimate question becomes if there is a relatively local dealer or not.

Lake Girl · Aug 26, 2015

Where in Northern Ontario? How rocky is the ground ... lots of Canadian Shield? Trenching could get interesting... you want the depth and insulation on those lines to avoid problems with heat loss.

What kind of wood stove and what kind of insert do you have currently?

tyanta · Aug 26, 2015

To answer the previous question, I believe logstor insulated pipe is being used.

tyanta · Aug 26, 2015

Lake Girl said:
Where in Northern Ontario? How rocky is the ground ... lots of Canadian Shield? Trenching could get interesting... you want the depth and insulation on those lines to avoid problems with heat loss.

What kind of wood stove and what kind of insert do you have currently?

I'm just south of North Bay. Ground is pretty rocky, lots of exposed rock to the left of the house. I'm told I should be aiming for 4' deep? I'm wondering about deeper if I can?

Edit: Regency freestanding stove, Napoleon insert. More specific than that I'd have to go look.

Grisu · Aug 26, 2015

Your heating load is quite large. You used $4300 in oil the first winter (I assume without wood supplement). At $3.50 per gallon and an efficiency of your boiler of 80% you need 140 million BTU to heat your home. From a cord of hardwood you will get maybe 18 mBTU. Thus, you will be in the neighborhood of 8 to 10 full cords of dry wood to get you through the winter. Do you have that much split and stacked? Trying to further tightening up the house would not be a bad idea.

What model stove and insert do you have? Any pics?

brenndatomu · Aug 26, 2015

Looked at any wood/pellet flex fuel boilers?

Maybe a good place for a lil input from @heaterman ...

Lake Girl · Aug 26, 2015

Logstor info ... https://www.logstor.com/Catalogs/District Heating/en/Handling and installation/1_0 General.pdf

Lake Girl · Aug 26, 2015

Grisu said:
$3.50 per gallon

Currently sitting at $4.13/gallon from Ottawa... Sorry ... $4.04/gallon Thunder Bay

maple1 · Aug 27, 2015

Lake Girl said:
Currently sitting at $4.13/gallon from Ottawa... Sorry ... $4.04/gallon Thunder Bay

That might be close to Grisus figure if he's talking in USA gallons.

Miscellaneous:

Logstor is good pipe, so that's good. Make sure they put in big enough stuff though - not sure how long your run is but it should be 1-1/4" pipe at least.

A typical indoor gasification boiler with storage doesn't burn all the time. You would burn it until the storage is all heated up & the heat demand has been met. Then light the fire again when storage is depleted & you need the heat again. aka batch burning. Lighting a fire every day might be considered as a hassle, but it ensures that all of the heat possible makes it into the water & none is wasted to the outdoors or up the chimney. I wouldn't go back to my old lighting of one fire per winter for anything. I only actually had a fire burning last winter about 6 hours a day - but when it burns it burns wide open & almost all the heat is going into the water. It was out by the time I was going to bed.

If going ahead with an OWB - I would do so expecting to use 20 cords per year. (That's full 4x4x8 cords - where I live that's all we talk - no bush or face terms). If you end up at less, consider it a bonus for the next year. If you can handle getting 20 cords of wood ready each year, that's another one of those personal things you need to work into your considerations - not much time left to get that much ready for this year though, it needs time to dry even if using an OWB and especially if using a gassifier.

(He is wrong about storage being a thing of the past and sounds like he only has OWB experience - but the performance of any OWB is tied to the quality of wood you feed it and the heatload it is servicing. Even a gassifying one will waste a lot of wood idling if you aren't using all the heat it is putting out all the time. And when it is burning & not idling, it is burning wood in a hurry).

Grisu · Aug 27, 2015

I plucked the number "out of thin air" so to speak.

What we would need to know is the price (or better the number of gallons/liter) used during the winter 2013/14 when the OP was solely heating with oil.

tyanta said:
Edit: Regency freestanding stove, Napoleon insert.

Sounds like those would be good efficient stoves. I have the feeling you were trying to run them with not properly dried wood which certainly has a big impact on their heat output. Pretty much the same will be true when you get an OWB or furnace. When you go to the main forum you will certainly get a lot of good advice on how to run the stoves properly and get them to heat your home. It looks like the previous owners managed to do that so it is possible. Nevertheless, dry wood with an internal moisture content of less than 20% will be key.

tyanta · Aug 27, 2015

@Grisu
- Yes that was without and real wood supplement. All I had was some mostly rotten wood left from the previous owner. We tried a few fires but nothing too meaningful.
- There are a few areas of the house I'm looking to address, including a Venmar system that seems to like to bring in more cold air than it should.
- I'm not 100% sure, but I should have about 20-24 face cord, half leftover from last year, half cut, split, delivered this May but not drying very well yet.
- I have a Regency S2100M in the basement and a Napoleon... hrm, don't see a model #. I'll upload a pic, dirt and all.
- I don't have # of liters of oil at my fingertips but if I had to guess, given a 900l tank and ~4 fills over the first year (if memory serves)... say somewhere between 3-4kl? Probably around 3500l

@brenndatomu
- No, I haven't. Presuming they are mean to be inside? My basement, being fully finished really isn't set up for wood storage inside. Pellets might be a bit more acceptable). Still, I'm liking the idea of getting wood out of the house.

@maple1
- I believe the pipe he has is 1" but I would have to confirm. It's what the installer has in stock and what I believe greenvalley.ca (the Canadian Heatmor distributor supplies.) Should I try and push for 1.25" or 1.5"?
- You bring up (at least short term) reasons why a traditional OWB might be a better consideration over gasser. This Year's wood should be drier than last, but I don't yet have means of checking its moisture content. Also, I'd like to burn the trees that fall on my property (not that it will make a huge difference in wood supply).
- I'm 31, so hopefully my health & body don't fail me any time soon. I don't mind moving wood; grew up with wood heat. Would I like to avoid it? Sure. But it is good exercise. I've cleared land for a ~ 30x30 woodshed to be attached to an OWB so I'll have the space for it granted.. it's still surrounded by trees so I hope it'll get enough air to dry properly. Pic attached. (Area behind the little shed)
- Thanks for the additional explanations.

Grisu · Aug 27, 2015

The fireplace is the NZ-26 zero clearance unit: http://napoleonfireplaces.com/products/nz26-zero-clearance-and-masonry-fireplace/ It has only a 1.7 cu ft firebox and therefore relatively short burn times and moderate heat output. The Regency is a medium unit. Both together are not bad but upgrading the Regency to a large unit (~ 3 cu ft firebox) and burning dry wood will go a long way in giving you enough heat. What kind of chimney does the Regency stove have?

Rotten wood is a sign of bad drying conditions. The wood should be split, raised from the ground, top-covered, and be located in a spot where it gets maximum sun and wind. This here is about ideal: http://cdn.instructables.com/FXC/BDTJ/HJ605MEM/FXCBDTJHJ605MEM.LARGE.jpg Not everyone has the yard to do all of it but the closer you can get the better.

3500 l, that's a bit less then 1000 gl, let's use 950 gl. 1 gl oil = 112,000 BTU effective heat (assuming 80% efficient boiler), times 950 gl that comes to about 106 mill. BTU. Actually, not that bad. Maybe 6-7 full cords burned in those two stoves to get you through the winter. Nevertheless, it needs to be dry. Get a cheap moisture meter from your local hardware store or over the internet (~$25), split a few pieces in half and press the pins in the center of the fresh surface. It should read below 20% to work well in those stoves. If not, get it cut, split, stacked as described and you will be in much better shape next year. If you want to replace the Regency for a larger unit two inexpensive but solid heaters will be the Drolet Myriad and the Englander 30NC (I think sold under the Timber Ridge brand in Canada). Both ~$1000 most likely and therefore much cheaper than a new boiler. They are not much to look at but in a basement that may not be an issue.

tyanta · Aug 27, 2015

Interesting. Why do so many people build woodsheds then if (while it makes sense) sun exposure is such a useful factor in drying wood?

The other issue I have is circulating the heat that existing furnaces put off. Replacing it with a larger unit (is something I have considered) but still poses that challenge. I seem to lose 10 deg cel from the basement to main floor, main to upstairs, not to mention the front bedroom that's over the garage.

Both chimneys are identical - stainless steel insulated and they were just extended 4' more prior to us purchasing the home.

Grisu · Aug 27, 2015

tyanta said:
Interesting. Why do so many people build woodsheds then if (while it makes sense) sun exposure is such a useful factor in drying wood?

To put it in there after it has been dried out so it stays dry and snow free during the winter. Some are also built to allow good air circulation. With enough time that will dry out the wood even without a lot of sun exposure. Aside from that, there are many people who still believe wood can be burned the day it is split.

The other issue I have is circulating the heat that existing furnaces put off. Replacing it with a larger unit (is something I have considered) but still poses that challenge. I seem to lose 10 deg cel from the basement to main floor, main to upstairs, not to mention the front bedroom that's over the garage.

How hot do the rooms with the stove/fireplace get? Could you post a floorplan (rough sketch)? I am not saying you should not get a boiler but I wanted to point out that there may be other, cheaper solutions to your problem. It is up to you what to do with that info.

Both chimneys are identical - stainless steel insulated and they were just extended 4' more prior to us purchasing the home.

Both were extended? How tall are they now? Did you have a sweep over for cleaning?

woodsmaster · Aug 29, 2015

wWth the radiant heat in the basement you may be able to get by with 1" underground pipe. just have to run the numbers and see. Not everyone needs 1 1/4' line

woodsmaster · Aug 29, 2015

tyanta said:
Interesting. Why do so many people build woodsheds then if (while it makes sense) sun exposure is such a useful factor in drying wood?

The other issue I have is circulating the heat that existing furnaces put off. Replacing it with a larger unit (is something I have considered) but still poses that challenge. I seem to lose 10 deg cel from the basement to main floor, main to upstairs, not to mention the front bedroom that's over the garage.

Both chimneys are identical - stainless steel insulated and they were just extended 4' more prior to us purchasing the home.

Wood sheds are nice so you don't have to tarp wood in the rainy season or dig it out of the ice and snow. wind / air circulation is a bigger factor in drying than the sun.

leon · Aug 29, 2015

tyanta said:
Hey everyone, new here but I spent 3+ hours last night reading posts instead of sleeping. I'll see if I can condense my situation for hopefully some quick advice.

1. Bought current 13yr old 2500sqft 2 story home with finished basement 2 years ago in Northern Ontario, Canada. It's heated w/ 900l interior oil tank, radiant heat in the basement (running off oil water heater) & stand alone wood stove in the basement & insert on the main floor.

2. Previous owners said they spent $2600/year in 2012/2013 on oil but heated primarily with wood for the first 10 years. (Injury prevented further wood heating). Our first Year's bill was $4300 or so. 2nd year I was working from home so I kept both fireplaces running (filling every few hours) 24/7 and we still froze. There is no way that stand-alone stove heated the whole house.

3. I'm done freezing and I no longer work from home. My uncle bought a OWB (Heatmore 400 series) 10 years ago, said he was happy with the service of the local dealer. I didn't do the usual research I would do; met the Heatmor dealer and started planning for the install, quoted at $17k w/o labor. : /

4. Winter is coming. I have several cord of wood left over from last year that should be better seasoned this year. I have to purchase my wood; cut and split is $90/face cord. I have 3 acres of land so the odd downed tree will likely add to what I burn. Yesterday I cleared some trees to build a woodshed that I intended to face the OWB into (so I can load it from "inside"). Tomorrow I have a backhoe coming to dig the ~60' trench.

5. All was well until I started reading more about gasification and how the choice I've made is "old school". Heatmor's new X series is too new for me, not interested in a first gen furnace. That + being able to burn wood that may not be perfect, the lower maintenance costs, less time cleaning etc. were all reasons I chose the older waterjacket style. But is it the wrong choice?

Last night I got reading about gasification, choosing a brand that's known for them (no idea if they're available in Ontario yet), hooking up to external water tanks, and indoor wood boilers.... along with the thought of using an IWB, outdoors.

Suddenly, I'm lost & wondering if I should even be digging my trench tomorrow! Any input would be appreciated.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would cancel the back hoe and seriously look at acoal stoker stove
like the Keystoker Koker furnace or a stove model for your heating
needs using as your paying more for refined fuels versus bulk anthracite rice coal.

There are keystoker dealers in Ontario

You should also visit youtube and look at the water stove videos too-there is reason they
are called forest eaters.

Rushed decision - making the wrong choice?

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