How short of a delivery do you accept before complaining

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NoGoodAtScreenNames

NoGoodAtScreenNames

Feeling the Heat
Sep 16, 2015
489
Massachusetts
First off - this is my first posting so be gentle.. Entering my 2nd burn season and have been a lurker here for about a year. Thanks for all the great info.

So I ran into my first and hopefully last bad wood buying experience. Ordered 4 cords to start getting ahead by a year. Stacked in a single direction 4x24 to measure the cords properly. Got 3 2/3. This was from a legitimate landscape supply company not some random dude on CL with a pickup truck.

Here's the basic response that I've gotten over the past month.

- I'm sorry we'll make it right
- Crickets
- We can't be short we have a special truck with scanner.
- We sell loose cords. A cord is 6.4 cu yards. It may appear short if you stack "the old way".
- The scanner slip shows you actually got 3.85 cord.
- We'll give you 25 "pieces" to make it up.

The way I see it they admitted they are short 26 loose cubic feet and I'm short 40 cubic feet of a properly stacked cord.

At this point I've told them I want the full properly measured cord or nothing. If it was an honest mistake it's one thing. But their process seems to guarantee short cords without disclosing it in their pricing. So I'm at the point of writing it off as a learning experience and wrote a note to the state weights and measures office. MA defines a cord the way I do - so I know I'm right.

Am I overreacting? I'm normally a pretty agreeable push over in real life...
 
That's about an 8% variance.

Not sure how long the wood is? But if it's 16"+/-, cutting an inch short would be about the same thing. Splitting small & stacking quite tight might do it too.

I don't think it would outright put me all over them, but it might make me think about calling them about it. If they are giving me 25 more pieces I would likely leave it at that, measuring wood piles isn't exactly a high accuracy thing.
 
I think your followup was reasonable, but I don't think there's much point in going further over $50-75 worth of wood. Even had they properly stacked and measured their cords instead of estimating loose, 5% variation between their stacks and yours would be a safe expectation, so value difference between what you got and what you should reasonably expect as a minimum is probably more like $20-30. How many hours fight is an hour or two's pay worth?

With measurements that vary the way cords do, one of the best things a firewood cutter can do for their reputation and customer satisfaction is abide by the principle of the baker's dozen - always throw in a little extra just to be sure.

Apparently, Massachusetts law doesn't even allow wood to be sold in cords:
https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXV/Chapter94/Section298

That seems excessive, especially since it effectively bans unit conversions, but either way, wood measured loose should not be referred to in cords. Cords are measured stacked because it's more consistent.
 
I left out that this was actually two different orders of 2. One was fine and on the other I got 1 2/3.

I'm in eastern MA where "seasoned" wood runs $300 to $400. So a third of a cord is "real money" but Not enough that I'm not going to loose too much (more) sleep over it.

MA isn't quite so strict about not being able to sell it by the cord. It's that you have to define what a cord means by cubic feet when stacked neatly.

http://www.mass.gov/ocabr/docs/dos/firewoodsales.pdf

My place just used "cord" on the advertisements. Shame on me for not confirming their definition. 6.4 cu / yard loose is around 170 cubic feet. I've read somewhere you need 180 or 190 to equal a traditional cord. I think Maine actually defines it in their law that way. It would be nice to know what you're getting... I may buy some bio bricks this year as well to help get through this year since some of this won't be ready this year. At least those are easy to measure.

Thanks for the replies.
 
I wonder if they figure out the cords by weight. So it may not be the same dimensions but the same cord weight. I could be wrong.
 
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Many wood processors do a lose stack, basically scoop it up with a loader and dump it in a box truck with the correct volume. Wood is inherently going to have voids unless its converted to pellets and few statutes define the void ratio. Thus it comes down to an opinion of what constitutes a cord. From lose stack to tight well stacked could easily vary by this much. Nevertheless a picture is worth a thousand words so take a picture of the stacks and let the seller know. Of course if wood is tight you buy where you can get it. With heating oil at $2 a gallon or less I expect a lot of folks will just not buy and the wood suppliers will be complaining.

Some folks advocate selling by weight. Our pulp mill used to buy by weight and on occasion truckers would be banned as the load was dripping wet even after three or four days of no rain. There were a few photos circulating of a trucker with a gas powered pump and hose spraying down their loads. Alternatively in the winter we would get loads of ice mixed with chips.
 
I would ask for a loose pickup load. 1/3 cord is nothing to sneeze at and they should be held responsible after giving that many crummy excuses.
You can offer to have the sheriff oversee the settlement of the dispute and see what they say. They admitted they gave you less than you paid for and the slip shows that.
I would gall them right away and ask how they like the sheriff. They will most likely give you that loose pickup load with a big smile.
 
Yup. Maine bureau of weights and measures states a stacked cord is 128 cubic feet. A thrown cord, 12"-16" logs, is 180 cubic feet and a thrown cord of 24" logs is 195 cubic feet.
 
Regardless of how you respond, this is another lesson for me why I prefer to scrounge and process my own firewood. I understand that doesn't help you any right now--I'm not trying to belittle your conundrum. And I especially respect that you are thinking a year down the road already. Good for you.

If you are able to process your own wood once you get the time and resources, then all the more I'd let this pass as a one-time learning experience to help motivate you as you make your own firewood.
 
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I wouldnt let it pass, ask for the balance of the wood. Most people dont measure or even care, if you dont measure and dont speak up sellers will continue to short their customers.
The realistic difference between cord measurements and whats delivered is the size of the truck container. In almost all cases the "conversion" doesnt match cord volume.
 
I measured 3 times (and I am a CPA) and best I can tell, I have between 8.5 & 9.5 cords. 128 cubic would be easy if a solid block of wood, but with gaps and varying lengths, I say "close enough". The vendor offered to make up a bit for the "calculated" shortfall, go for it.

image.jpg
 
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Forget about it. Or have him give you a little extra on your next load. 1/4 of a cord out of a total 4 cords is pretty close - especially if the wood is good.

Worry about the wood supplier who is bringing you a couple of cords in his pickup truck. Or the supplier whose ready-to-burn wood has been seasoned in the round for a year or 2.
 
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Appreciate all the replies.

I'm not planning on using these guys again. Not just for the measurement but for unreturned phone calls and general rudeness. Lots of other places to get wood around here without the hassle.

Also, most of the wood won't be burnable this year even though it's advertised as seasoned. Read enough to not have high expectations in that area, but I was hoping this place would be better than last years wood that was decent but not great- it's much worse.

Who knows maybe I'll like the bio bricks this year and will use them more going forward. Their price is pretty competitive with "seasoned" cordwood around here and you definitely know what you're getting.
 
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Yep. When a pickup with wood sides comes up your driveway with "2 cords of wood" you know your in trouble.
If your splits are 16 inches, you should get 3 eight foot stacks to be a cord.
 
It's no mystery how much is a cord. If it's short, it's short. Someone mentioned the bakers dozen method and that's how any reputable dealer works. If these guys are peddling 100 cord per season and shooting everyone by 1/10 of a full cord, they're stealing an extra $3000 per season. I have a friend who sells 400-500 cord per year, so, that's serious money. If your oil company delivered 340 gallons for your 400 gallon order, would you say "Oh well. Close enough." I doubt it.
 
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If measuring a cord is not an exact science, how come no one ever gets more? Its always short.

I think it is an exact science. The sellers know exactly how much they are giving you and its less than what you pay for by design.
 
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I would expect around here I would be shorted to. Im glad Im blessed to be in a geographical location to harvest my own firewood. I feel your pain though. It would be nice to have it exact but you did get it pretty close. I sometimes have good natured arguments with friends about how much wood I can get in my short box dodge ram stacked with 18' rounds slightly mounded with no side rails,,,, I get .43 of a cord by my measure.
 
Years ago during the arab oil embargo, seasoned wood was real difficult to get and there were a lot of new woodburners, there was a old timer that that sold half cords. A half cord to him was 2x2x4 feet. He sold a lot of half cords for the half the price of the full cord.
 
newburner said:
If measuring a cord is not an exact science, how come no one ever gets more? Its always short.

I think it is an exact science. The sellers know exactly how much they are giving you and its less than what you pay for by design.
Click to expand...

Some of my frustration with them was that they treated it as an exact science in their eyes and never came out to physically look at my short delivery. Its interesting that this was two separate orders of two and one was good and one was bad. It's not like they measured out 4 cord. They measured two cords twice and got one wrong. The one that was good was delivered in two trips of one cord. The one that was bad was one trip of two cords. Maybe the first benefited from a bakers dozen method but the second left no room for it. I imagine most of their customers are occasional burners and usually purchase less than a cord. Their loose thrown with the fancy scanner gizmo method might work fine for smaller orders.

At the end of the day I offered to settle at something much less than what I think is right based partly on some previous posters saying that overall 3 2/3 out of 4 combined isn't terrible. But mostly because I just want the argument to stop. I'm more worried we live in the same town and that in some strange twist of fate our kids will get married or something than I am about getting $100 worth of wood.
 
NoGoodAtScreenNames said:
I'm more worried we live in the same town and that in some strange twist of fate our kids will get married or something than I am about getting $100 worth of wood.
Click to expand...

For a poor man like me trying to feed and house a family, I don't think there is much I'd worry about more than losing $100. I guess it's a matter of perspective.

I'm burning wood because I can't afford to have our oil furnace fixed/replaced. If I could afford losing $100 here and there, I might not worry too much.
 
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