Fighting the man

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Teammaniac

New Member
Oct 7, 2015
2
WASHINGTON STATE
I put a fireplace in my house. Put the install up for a inspection to ensure insurance coverage, and wouldnt you know the inspector has picked something to fail the install on, the lack of a intake vent. The inspector and supervisor of the department of planning tried nailing me on one of their Snohomish County regulations listed under their amended IRC Codes,
"SOLID FUEL BURNING APPLIANCES AND FIREPLACES: Solid fuel burning appliances and fireplaces shall satisfy one of the following criteria.
402.2 Solid Fuel Burning Appliances: Solid fuel burning appliances shall be provided with the following:
a. Tight fitting metal or ceramic glass doors.
b. 1. A source from outside the structure of primary combustion air, connected to the appliance as per manufacturer’s specification. The air inlet shall originate at a point below the fire box. The duct shall be 4 inches or greater in diameter, not exceed 20 feet in length, and be installed as per manufacturer’s instructions;
or
2. The appliance and manufacturer’s recommended combustion air supply, as an installed unit, shall be certified by an independent testing laboratory to have passed Test No. 11-Negative Pressure Test, Section 12.3, of ULC S627-M1984 “Space Heaters "

I was able to convince them that this would work because of option#2 which my stove is certified ULCS627.

Now thet are attempting to attack my manufacturers requirements:
I have a Napoleon 1100 built in 2000. The manual states that a intake vent is only req for a mobile home, but on the introduction page listing a plethora of warning it states this, "- At least 14 square inches of outside air must be admitted to the room or directly to the unit through a 4” diameter pipe"

Now what the hell does this mean? Anyone? Im calling the manufacturer in the AM but this has me all flustered. and though id ask on this forum, thanks.
 
Need some input from a long time Washington state stove professional. Paging Tom. Call in the lobby for @thechimneysweep
 
Teammaniac said:
"- At least 14 square inches of outside air must be admitted to the room or directly to the unit through a 4” diameter pipe"

Now what the hell does this mean? Anyone? Im calling the manufacturer in the AM but this has me all flustered. and though id ask on this forum, thanks.
Click to expand...
It means that air is going up the chimney, so in order for the air to go out, air must come in. Drill a 4" hole in the wall so air can come into the room. Or better yet, drill a hole and run a pipe to the air inlet on the stove. Either will work. One is better than the other.
 
then why does the manual say, "A. Connection from the appliance’s air intake to the outside is mandatory in mobile homes only, either through a hole in the wall or through the hole in the fl oor to line up with the knock out in the leg model or the hole in the pedestal base."
 
Teammaniac said:
then why does the manual say, "A. Connection from the appliance’s air intake to the outside is mandatory in mobile homes only, either through a hole in the wall or through the hole in the fl oor to line up with the knock out in the leg model or the hole in the pedestal base."
Click to expand...
There are others here who may be able to answer more definitively, but mobile homes are mandatory to have a hard connection to outside, conventional homes it is not mandatory. The hole for a mobile can go through the floor or the wall.
 
Required in Washington. Each of the stove installations in my home were permitted and both would have been failed without the oak. I asked the two different inspectors.
 
My primary heat source at home is an old Napoleon 1400 pedestal. I'm sure our house is sufficiently not airtight to allow plenty of air to seep in from all over the place but I went ahead and installed the auxiliary air intake from the back of the stove thru the wall. Then I had to build a 6 foot high wooden structure to cover it since it exits the outside wall just a few inches off the ground and we get lots of snow. Given the lack of big snow in Snohomish I would think it would be pretty easy to install, depending on the location of your unit.
 
Putting in a intake vent is not that big of a deal generally...
 
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Think of the advantage: If the stove is using outside air, you aren't creating a negative pressure zone inside your house. This will keep rooms on the edge of your envelope warmer.
 
"Open a Window"
I was thinking the same thing;lol
 
Maniac- I would try to make them understand that the operative word in that warning is "OR".

At least 14 square inches of outside air must be admitted to the room OR directly to the unit through a 4” diameter pipe

And then explain that there's probably more like 14 square feet of outside air being admitted to your house via window leaks, bad weatherstripping, etc, and thereafter being "admitted to the room". If there wasn't sufficient air entering the stove after entering the room, then you'd never sustain a fire without opening a window, as some here have suggested.
 
El Finko said:
Maniac- I would try to make them understand that the operative word in that warning is "OR".

At least 14 square inches of outside air must be admitted to the room OR directly to the unit through a 4” diameter pipe

And then explain that there's probably more like 14 square feet of outside air being admitted to your house via window leaks, bad weatherstripping, etc, and thereafter being "admitted to the room". If there wasn't sufficient air entering the stove after entering the room, then you'd never sustain a fire without opening a window, as some here have suggested.
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and you'd find out that all they care about is enforcement of the codes.
 
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The wood stove out in my shop is an older stove without the design of being able to have a direct air inlet. It draws air from the surrounding room. It was that way for years, worked great, I thought. Of course there are air leaks all around that will let in plenty of air. One day I was messing around and noticed that when I opened the door there was a slight difference in the burn/flame visible in the stove. I then drilled a 4" hole in the wall a few feet from the stove. There was a huge amount of air flowing through the hole when the stove was lit. Put your hand over it and you could feel the pull of air coming past.

From an energy effiency standpoint a hole in the wall is not a good idea. Opening a window is going to be forgot, maybe not always, but sometimes. It is also letting cold air into the area you are trying to heat. Running a direct outside air to your stove will always work, will always provide combustion air. It is a little hard for me to understand why someone would be opposed to the best install possible on their new stove. Doing the job poorly is not the man getting the sticking, it is the property owner getting it. I am not a fan of inspectors, but in this case he is correct.
 
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Wisneaky said:
and you'd find out that all they care about is enforcement of the codes.
Click to expand...
Yes they are because if something bad should happen, they are on the liability hook. I have a hard time faulting someone for doing their job...
 
You can't fight "the man", better off just bending over
 
Lake Girl said:
Yes they are because if something bad should happen, they are on the liability hook. I have a hard time faulting someone for doing their job...
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I agree with you. I didn't mean to sound like I was blaming them for doing their job.
 
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Heatsource said:
no, typically inspectors are not liable for anything, at least in my county (CA not WA)
Click to expand...

Liable is a technical word with a technical meaning. If the inspector passes an inspection of a device that was installed improperly and then the house burns down killing a family then you can bet your buns that the inspector will at the minimum be fired. To an inspector working for the government, that is bad. The inspector's primary duty is to enforce the code, if he fails then he is a failure. The inspector doesn't benefit from passing a noncompliant installation, but he can certainly be damaged if he doesn't do his job. Put the OAK in unless you have an actual reason that it can't be done.

You want an OAK. It's a superior installation. The usual reason people try and skip it is because they're lazy.
 
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Your insurance company will be looking at it differently especially if they have a claim to pay out ;) The manufacturer puts those qualifiers in the manual for a reason.
 
Here is my air intake setup. Opening a window would suffice in the basement; however, my setup only draws air in as needed with the "J" setup on the bottom. As far as having a drafty house goes, I too believed this at one point. I was having a terrific problem with liquid creosote and I contacted the manufacturer. The very first question they asked me what if I had fresh air coming in. I said yeah, I have lots of drafty windows and doors. They said to install a fresh air vent, and pretty much not to call back until I did. So, I did. And they were right. It pretty much got rid of all of my creosote.
 

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cachunko said:
Here is my air intake setup. Opening a window would suffice in the basement; however, my setup only draws air in as needed with the "J" setup on the bottom. As far as having a drafty house goes, I too believed this at one point. I was having a terrific problem with liquid creosote and I contacted the manufacturer. The very first question they asked me what if I had fresh air coming in. I said yeah, I have lots of drafty windows and doors. They said to install a fresh air vent, and pretty much not to call back until I did. So, I did. And they were right. It pretty much got rid of all of my creosote.
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So much more efficient if it is hooked up directly to the stove... where it is drawn as needed by combustion blower.
 
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Lake Girl said:
So much more efficient if it is hooked up directly to the stove... where is is drawn as needed by combustion blower.
Click to expand...

I have a Yukon Polar oil/wood/coal combination furnace. It does not have a combustion blower, and does not have a connection to the furnace. I realize I don't have the same setup as the OP, but the concept is the same.
 
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cachunko said:
I have a Yukon Polar oil/wood/coal combination furnace. It does not have a combustion blower, and does not have a connection to the furnace. I realize I don't have the same setup as the OP, but the concept is the same.
Click to expand...
I have a Yukon Husky and a similar OAK...I don't think the furnace itself would need it but the barometric damper on the chimney does! Tons of air flow there
 
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