Didn't Save As Much Oil As I Thought I Might (Year 1)

jeffesonm · Oct 7, 2015

Brian26 said:
Go buy a GE Geospring heat pump hot water heater from Lowes. They are practically giving them away after the rebates in CT. I got mine on sale from Lowes for $100 after the rebates. $900 cost -$400 Energize CT rebate - $400 federal rebate.

The savings have been massive. Even with CT's crazy electric rates using my effergy whole house energy monitor it uses very little power. I posted awhile back in the green room my results from running it Jan-Apr. It cost $17 a month to run. Electric rates went down huge this summer so I am guessing its costing me around $10-$12 now to run it. That was also the results in the winter. In summer with warmer basement temps it runs way less. Could be less than $10 a month.

Agree with this. 2+ years and no issues with my GeoSpring. There is a lengthy thread over in the Green Room about them, go check it out. I bought the 10 year extended warranty for $100 just in case and with all the rebates and a Lowes 10% off coupon it was still <$500. No more boiler in the summertime. I then scoured Craiglist and picked up a 2 year old high efficiency cold start oil boiler for <$900 to replace my old clunker when I'm not burning wood. It burns so much less oil... can't even remember when I last filled my 275 gallon tank.

BradleyW · Oct 7, 2015

I will give another shout out for the Geospring. Even in my New England basement it works all winter long and in a year and a half has almost paid for itself versus the alternatives. I would hate to have to run an oil burner all summer long for hot water.

davidmsem · Oct 7, 2015

jeffesonm said:
Agree with this. 2+ years and no issues with my GeoSpring. There is a lengthy thread over in the Green Room about them, go check it out. I bought the 10 year extended warranty for $100 just in case and with all the rebates and a Lowes 10% off coupon it was still <$500. No more boiler in the summertime. I then scoured Craiglist and picked up a 2 year old high efficiency cold start oil boiler for <$900 to replace my old clunker when I'm not burning wood. It burns so much less oil... can't even remember when I last filled my 275 gallon tank.

Thank you for the info. My boiler still has to run because when "off" it leaks. I guess the sections are not tight together when cool. The boiler is twenty years old.....they say it will last 30.....might be cheaper to leave things as is but I'm looking into upgrading the entire system.

xSpecBx · Oct 7, 2015

Keep in mind when you are doing your numbers that to keep the house at an equivalent temperature you would be burning significantly more oil than you are with wood. Doubt you were walking around in shorts when it was just the oil burner. Also, I know at least for my wife and myself, we probably use more hot water in the winter. In the summer I take showers what are practically cold, but that dial goes up significantly in the winter. That 1.1 gal/day number for domestic hot water is probably slightly higher in the winter than in the summer. I suspect your heating usage is pretty lower than you think.

My house is pretty well insulated (2,400 sq ft, built in 2007ish w/ 2x6 walls, foam backed concrete foundation, well insulated attic, etc) and we still burn around 650 gallons a year without the pellet stove (~325 gallons is for hot water). The house is kept at 60 when were not home and bumps up to 65 when we're home.

Last year was particularly brutal in south eastern CT, so I'm guessing it wasn't much different up in your neck of the woods.

jharkin · Oct 8, 2015

davidmsem said:
Thank you for the info. My boiler still has to run because when "off" it leaks. I guess the sections are not tight together when cool. The boiler is twenty years old.....they say it will last 30.....might be cheaper to leave things as is but I'm looking into upgrading the entire system.

I've never heard of a boiler that has to stay hot to seal by design. What make/model is it?

Related: http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/141379/boiler-leak

Clarkbug · Oct 8, 2015

jharkin said:
I've never heard of a boiler that has to stay hot to seal by design. What make/model is it?

Related: http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/141379/boiler-leak

Warm start boilers (usually cast iron) are designed to stay hot all the time. The design isn't that they have to be hit to seal, but after many years of the metal being hot, it can squeeze gaskets and seals between sections or other components. When it cools down, the metal shrinks some, enough to get leaks or weeping.

Cold start boilers don't care about this, and can be shut down unless there is a need for them.

In the OP's situation, I would put in a condensing LP water heater or a heat pump electric, and just valve off the boiler for the summer. Warm it back up in the winter, but remove the DHW zone. When it's time for a new boiler pick one up of your choice.

For a deal, find someone that just ripped out their couple year old oil fired Buderus boiler to switch to NG and buy it cheap.

davidmsem · Oct 8, 2015

jharkin said:
I've never heard of a boiler that has to stay hot to seal by design. What make/model is it?

Related: http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/141379/boiler-leak

Weil-McLain P-586-W, 181Ik BTU.

davidmsem · Oct 8, 2015

Clarkbug said:
Warm start boilers (usually cast iron) are designed to stay hot all the time. The design isn't that they have to be hit to seal, but after many years of the metal being hot, it can squeeze gaskets and seals between sections or other components. When it cools down, the metal shrinks some, enough to get leaks or weeping.

Cold start boilers don't care about this, and can be shut down unless there is a need for them.

In the OP's situation, I would put in a condensing LP water heater or a heat pump electric, and just valve off the boiler for the summer. Warm it back up in the winter, but remove the DHW zone. When it's time for a new boiler pick one up of your choice.

For a deal, find someone that just ripped out their couple year old oil fired Buderus boiler to switch to NG and buy it cheap.

Thank you....yes it would be better described as weeping when cold.

What do you mean by "valve off" the boiler in summer?

I do have access to propane (500 gallon in ground), so I may add the propane DHW now.

Thank you very much.

begreen · Oct 8, 2015

btuser said:
Propane will probably be cheaper for a long time regardless what happens with the price of oil.

Caveat emptor - not everywhere. Locally in the Seattle area it's still running $3.00 a gallon or more. 50 miles north of here - $1.09/gallon, even in small quantities. Just across the border into the Vancouver BC area it's $.78!! That's only 90 miles away. Needless to say we're getting ripped off.

davidmsem · Oct 8, 2015

begreen said:
Caveat emptor - not everywhere. Locally in the Seattle area it's still running $3.00 a gallon or more. 50 miles north of here - $1.09/gallon, even in small quantities. Just across the border into the Vancouver BC area it's $.78!! That's only 90 miles away. Needless to say we're getting ripped off.

This is why I think I will only use propane for hot water, and oil for the boiler. Propane seems like a strange market.

begreen · Oct 8, 2015

We had propane heat, but that has been out of the house since 2006. Now we just have a propane cooktop.

Dieselhead · Oct 9, 2015

davidmsem said:
This is why I think I will only use propane for hot water, and oil for the boiler. Propane seems like a strange market.

Rural has been very consistent since I began using them in 2010. Filled up last month for $1.97. Highest I've paid was last year during the "propane crisis" at $2.83. I have a 500g inground as well

btuser · Oct 10, 2015

begreen said:
Caveat emptor - not everywhere. Locally in the Seattle area it's still running $3.00 a gallon or more. 50 miles north of here - $1.09/gallon, even in small quantities. Just across the border into the Vancouver BC area it's $.78!! That's only 90 miles away. Needless to say we're getting ripped off.

Grrrr. That kind of injustice makes me want to don face paint and throw rocks at delivery trucks. What's the price for heating oil?

The two times I've ever dealt with propane companies I've been ripped off. First one was "automatic delivery" that always seems to get topped off right before the price nosedives in the Summer. The other was when I called to tell them come get their tanks, and the 100% tanks that were only 80% full somehow were really only 50% full and the reimbursement price was $.50 cheaper that day. It's like someone timed my market trade! (another rip-off story!)

It makes a pretty blue flame. That's about it.

Starstuff · Oct 10, 2015

+1 on getting a heat pump electric water heater. I did a lot of research on systems and this is was the cheapest form of conventional water heating, both upfront and monthly costs. I have a Whirlpool model from Lowe's that was $500 after rebates, installed last December. There are just two people in this house, and our electric bills were already low, but the HPWH reduced it 20-30% And I've got the heater in a colder area of the home where it draws ~50 F air during the winter. If I put it upstairs where it could take advantage of the heat, it would be even more efficient. I would suggest getting a model that can incorporate exhaust/intake piping. They're more expensive, but you can take advantage of the potential heat exchange from the air flows. I also found in my research that the larger the tank, the more efficient.

Also, if you've got any hot water outlets that take a long time to heat up, consider a point-of-use heater (tankless or mini tank). I have one bathroom sink that takes 3 minutes to heat up. I picked up a 2.5 gallon Steibel mini tank and stuck it in the vanity. No more waiting, no more wasting water, and no more running the water heater just to wash my hands.

mtnhiker70 · Oct 10, 2015

I agree with pp that your estimate of 400 gal for hw is off.

I had a similar heating system in my old house, which was only 1350 sf and no fireplace. When oil was expensive, I replaced the hw (which was oil fired direct) with a GE hybrid electric. Cost me $1k just for the install! I didn't save 400 gal of oil. I only saved about $200 a year or less bc elec prices went up. I do not recommend them either, btw, we've had it repaired at least 5 times and it still won't work in hybrid mode. I got the extended warranty, thanks god, but we were without hot water for 10 days during one repair. They replaced the computer panel 3xs and it still fails in 6 months! They won't give me a new one unless I have 3 separate repairs of the same part. And the 3 repairs have to be done under the lowes warranty. It was repaired 3 times under the GE factory warranty, but they won't count those repairs. And replacement does not cover a new install. Do not buy one! Electric has gone up so much that it won't save you a dime!

My current home (2800sf) has oil fired hydro air heat and hw with a hw storage tank. During the 6 months when the heat is off for summer, I turn off the boiler at night and after the last person showered for the day. We have only used about 1/2 tank of oil in 6 months for the hw. Just over 100 gal. Otherwise the boiler runs periodically to keep the water inside the boiler at a certain temperature, which is unnecessary in summer.

HTH.

davidmsem said:
I started burning December 10th of last year, a Regency 3100 in a 9 nine room 3000 sq ft colonial. I love the added warmth of the insert, but now that I have a year of data regarding my oil use that I can compare to past year, I'm not saving as much as I thought. Last year I burned 24/7 most of the time with GREAT 4 year old seasoned wood. It was a pleasant experience.

I was pleasantly surprised how much heat left the back of the house where the insert was and kept distant rooms in the low sixties to high fifties most nights........

I've been averaging about 800 gallons of oil per year for heat (baseboard hot water) and hot water (boilermate).

Looking at oil fill dates in the summer months, I'm averaging about 1.1 gallons per day just to heat hot water. That means I'm using 400 gallons to heat my hot water for showers and the like, and 400 to heat the house.

During the past year, with burning from December 10th, I reducing consumption by 145 gallons. Not bad, a 36% decrease in oil consumption for heating, plus I got to walk around in underwear instead of covered in blankets with the thermostat in the 60s.

The efforts that I put into the house when I built it in 1994 have given me some payback...more than I thought. 5 zones of heat, 2X6 walls instead of 2x4, extra insulation in the attic, insulated basement etc.

What was most surprising was discovering how much oil I'm using for hot water!

Expenses so far are about $4500 for the insert, $500 for a log splitter, and $600 for a chain saw, and $1300 for logs that will yield approximately 10-12 cords of wood.

I'll keep burning, because I love it, but with payback of 200 gallons or so in oil a year, it will take a long time to get the approximately $7,000 outlay back in my wallet.

Still love the comfort and walking around in underwear, but I'm disappointed that my savings are not greater.

David

btuser · Oct 10, 2015

Pay close attention to electric rates when comparing propane to electric/heat pump. Here in NH it's going nowhere but up and I figured if I have to heat my basement to offset the heat pump It's not worth it in Winter months. I am however interested because we end up running a dehumidifier during the Summer months. It might kill two birds with one stone but once again recovery is a problem due to our rather large needs.

davidmsem · Oct 11, 2015

mtnhiker70 said:
I agree with pp that your estimate of 400 gal for hw is off.

I had a similar heating system in my old house, which was only 1350 sf and no fireplace. When oil was expensive, I replaced the hw (which was oil fired direct) with a GE hybrid electric. Cost me $1k just for the install! I didn't save 400 gal of oil. I only saved about $200 a year or less bc elec prices went up. I do not recommend them either, btw, we've had it repaired at least 5 times and it still won't work in hybrid mode. I got the extended warranty, thanks god, but we were without hot water for 10 days during one repair. They replaced the computer panel 3xs and it still fails in 6 months! They won't give me a new one unless I have 3 separate repairs of the same part. And the 3 repairs have to be done under the lowes warranty. It was repaired 3 times under the GE factory warranty, but they won't count those repairs. And replacement does not cover a new install. Do not buy one! Electric has gone up so much that it won't save you a dime!

My current home (2800sf) has oil fired hydro air heat and hw with a hw storage tank. During the 6 months when the heat is off for summer, I turn off the boiler at night and after the last person showered for the day. We have only used about 1/2 tank of oil in 6 months for the hw. Just over 100 gal. Otherwise the boiler runs periodically to keep the water inside the boiler at a certain temperature, which is unnecessary in summer.

HTH.

Hello hiker....I have 20 years of data where I burn 1.1 to 1.2 gallons of oil per day for 7 months a year when all I'm doing is heating hot water, and of course, the stand by loss for the boiler which is ranging from 140 to 180 degrees.

Hard to argue with that. The other five months the usage might be less as the stand by loss is also for the heat, so maybe the hot water total usage is 300-350 gallons annually guessing, but still higher than I thought.

I wish the numbers were different, but these are based on twenty years.

billb3 · Oct 11, 2015

A 2 gallon/hour nozzle running twice a day for 15 minutes making hot water would use 1 gallon a day.
Make it a 1.75 gph nozzle and have the boiler turn on twice a day for 15 minutes to make hot water and then twice a day for 5 or so minutes just to heat itself back up and you're close to 1 gal/day.
That's a problem with a big boiler designed to heat a large house - it's a bit oversize for making water . Imagine how much oil you'd be using if it were a coil-in and the boiler came on every time someone took a shower or washed their face and there are 4 or 5 faces !

You're not using quite 1.1 gal in the Winter to make hot water though because you're not wasting/using oil just keeping the boiler warm in between cycling on to make hot water. The boiler stays warm from the room zones calling for heat.

To only make hot water my system will twice burn a day ( actually more like 2.3/day ) for 11 minutes with a 0.50 nozzle and every now and then a 5 minute burn once a day with no zone calling for heat .
Now, With the solar panel I can shut the boiler off Jun/Jul/Aug now and not hear it running for a couple months .

(the hot water tank has 2 coils, 1 for the boiler, 1 for the roof panel )

Jo191145 · Oct 11, 2015

davidmsem said:
Family is just my wife and I. Both of us work full time. Thermostats kick back automatically.

I have an in ground 500 gallon propane tank that I could use for hot water as well.....if the furnace goes I may switch to propane.....have not researched that yet.

Hi David.
Just north of you. Yes it was a cold year last year. I didn't use a drop of oil. Furnace died in the spring so I left it dead. Never used it much anyway.
As for the propane I heat water, clothes dryer and stove with it. Use about 100 - 150 gallons a year. The propane hot water was actually the result of a mistake I made when I built. Not enough flues left in the basement for the oil furnace and add on wood furnace and a oil fired water heater so I went with gas vented out the wall. Best mistake I ever made.

Bottom line you saved oil and upped the indoor temps dramatically during one of the coldest winters. Not all that bad for an insert.

davidmsem · Oct 11, 2015

Jo191145 said:
Hi David.
Just north of you. Yes it was a cold year last year. I didn't use a drop of oil. Furnace died in the spring so I left it dead. Never used it much anyway.
As for the propane I heat water, clothes dryer and stove with it. Use about 100 - 150 gallons a year. The propane hot water was actually the result of a mistake I made when I built. Not enough flues left in the basement for the oil furnace and add on wood furnace and a oil fired water heater so I went with gas vented out the wall. Best mistake I ever made.

Bottom line you saved oil and upped the indoor temps dramatically during one of the coldest winters. Not all that bad for an insert.

Very comfortable last winter. The fan on the Regency helps get heat out of the unit and into the room.

You remind me that I should convert my electric clothes dryer to propane!

At least the Vermont skiing was really sweet this past year.

Jo191145 · Oct 11, 2015

davidmsem said:
Very comfortable last winter. The fan on the Regency helps get heat out of the unit and into the room.

You remind me that I should convey my electric clothes dryer to propane!

At least the Vermont skiing was really sweet this past year.

You meant snowmobiling right?

jeffesonm · Oct 11, 2015

I am no hvac expert but 181k btu seems like a lot of boiler for a 3000 sq ft house that is new-ish construction, 2x6 walls, decent insulation, etc. I have a 64k btu boiler that keeps my 1800 sq ft 1957 poorly insulated full of aluminum frame window house plenty warm.

davidmsem · Oct 12, 2015

jeffesonm said:
I am no hvac expert but 181k btu seems like a lot of boiler for a 3000 sq ft house that is new-ish construction, 2x6 walls, decent insulation, etc. I have a 64k btu boiler that keeps my 1800 sq ft 1957 poorly insulated full of aluminum frame window house plenty warm.

Absolutely.....my neighbor who owns an HVAC company told me he would drop down to approx 110 to 120 kbtu.

I'm going to dig up the original heat loss calculation and see what was called for. I may have up sized a bit because we thought we might add on to the home, but I can't recall.

fire_man · Oct 12, 2015

Brian26 said:
2 years and my only issue was bad elements because I never used them and ran it in heat pump only mode. GE sent upgraded replacements for free. Even if mine blew up today I wouldn't care as it already saved me probably 20 times the $100 cost in power savings. 500 watts to run the compressor vs 4500 elements.

Not sure where you got that amazon rating from as I searched Amazon and only 2 reviews came up. The lowes one is almost 5 stars.

View attachment 163051

Looks like they scrapped the older unreliable model number on AMazon's site. The newer model Also has pretty dismal ratings on amazon's site - although it's only got 3 ratings since it's so new.

billb3 · Oct 12, 2015

I'd seriously get an estimate on a boiler replacement .
A downsize to the correct size and an increase from 60/70 -85/90 % efficiency is a chunk of change even if HHO prices stay under $3 for a couple of years.

Didn't Save As Much Oil As I Thought I Might (Year 1)

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