Wood Insert: Quadrafire Voyageur or Hampton HI300

jophysx · Oct 26, 2015

Back to the original poster's question. Quadrafire Voyageur vs. Hampton HI300. My brother has a Grand Voyageur, which I assume is similar and is very happy with it. He liked the look of the flush mount. I have the HI300 and am also very happy with it. They are both very nice and I don't think you can go wrong with either as long as they are properly installed. I would go for the HI300 for the larger firebox, myself. Firebox volume is the key parameter for determining burn time (non-cat).

HI300: 2.3 cubic feet
Voyageur: 1.8 cubic feet
Voyageur Grand: 2.35 cubic feet.

orionsbelt77 · Oct 27, 2015

[email protected] said:
Running wide open may get you the most heat, but definitely not the most heat per pound of fuel. You have massive heat being lost up the chimney due to excess air. Sound like you want it that way due to a healthy fear of creosote. But you might consider trying to run the stove at a lower air flow. Many, many people on this forum, myself included have the opposite philosophy. The airflow should be set at the minimum value needed to keep the fire burning efficiently. And people who run the stove this way get great heat and do not have creosote problems. I also have about a 25' exterior chimney, uninsulated flue. I clean once per year and get less than a coffee can of fluffy creosote.

Try it. You'll like it!

Jim

I clean my chimney twice a season. I just cleaned it today with the Gardus Soot eater rotary system, removing what was deposited from mid season to spring. About three months worth of burning 4 hrs per night. I got about two three pound coffee cans worth of fluffy soot. I burn dry wood and as you know at the high heat setting. I run three foot long extensions up the chimney until it ends at the cap. At that time, I reverse the direction on the drill and begin the downward trek. I would love only getting a one three pound coffee can full of soot after a year, but I wind up with about four of those. As long as I was at it, I also replaced the ceramic blanket with a new one. I also discovered that I also need new bottom firebrick as some of them are crumbling.........that, and I discovered that my gasket at the top does not meet the dollar test. It does on the sides, but not the top. My insert is on a level which is at ground level, a level which we spend the most time and gets very cold. My dogs love the heat and bark at me when I get home, wanting a fire to lay beside. They crack me up sitting by the fireplace barking, waiting for heat. When they see me hauling wood in from outside they begin to whine and know what is in store for them. I have to shoo them away at first, when I am building the fire, but after it is going good, they settle in in front of it. I will take your advice and burn slower and see how it goes. I may just have the worst setup for burning wood that can be, but I am stubborn and will not cave in. Dammit! I am going to burn wood! Thank you pal for your input!

orionsbelt77 · Oct 27, 2015

[email protected] said:
Running wide open may get you the most heat, but definitely not the most heat per pound of fuel. You have massive heat being lost up the chimney due to excess air. Sound like you want it that way due to a healthy fear of creosote. But you might consider trying to run the stove at a lower air flow. Many, many people on this forum, myself included have the opposite philosophy. The airflow should be set at the minimum value needed to keep the fire burning efficiently. And people who run the stove this way get great heat and do not have creosote problems. I also have about a 25' exterior chimney, uninsulated flue. I clean once per year and get less than a coffee can of fluffy creosote.

Try it. You'll like it!

Jim

I clean my chimney twice a season. I just cleaned it today with the Gardus Soot eater rotary system, removing what was deposited from mid season to spring. About three months worth of burning 4 hrs per night. I got about two three pound coffee cans worth of fluffy soot. I burn dry wood and as you know at the high heat setting. I run three foot long extensions up the chimney until it ends at the cap. At that time, I reverse the direction on the drill and begin the downward trek. I would love only getting a one three pound coffee can full of soot after a year, but I wind up with about four of those. As long as I was at it, I also replaced the ceramic blanket with a new one. I also discovered that I also need new bottom firebrick as some of them are crumbling.........that, and I discovered that my gasket at the top does not meet the dollar test. It does on the sides, but not the top. My insert is on a level which is at ground level, a level which we spend the most time and gets very cold. My dogs love the heat and bark at me when I get home, wanting a fire to lay beside. They crack me up sitting by the fireplace barking, waiting for heat. When they see me hauling wood in from outside they begin to whine and know what is in store for them. I have to shoo them away at first, when I am building the fire, but after it is going good, they settle in in front of it. I will take your advice and burn slower and see how it goes. I may just have the worst setup for burning wood that can be, but I am stubborn and will not cave in. Dammit! I am going to burn wood! Thank you pal for your input!

begreen said:
Is this a basement install?

Negative pressure and backdrafting may not be caused by the 26 ft chimney. That is not that tall. More likely it is caused by the stove location, house conditions (like a very well sealed house or one with an upstairs window or an attic vent open), competing appliances and/or exhaust fans, or local terrain. If the house is tightly sealed or there are competing appliances, one can test to see if an outside air supply would help by opening a nearby window a 1/2" or so and observing the fire. If that improves the situation then the stove is starving for air and could use an outside air supply.

begreen · Oct 27, 2015

That's sounds like a lot of sote. For comparison after burning 3 cord and using the Sooteater with a 20ft chimney we are getting about 2 cups of sote. Our chimney gets cleaned once a year.

It could be that by running wide open the stove is burning dirty. Cutting down the air starts secondary combustion which burns hotter and cleaner.

Animals love the warmth. Our cat keeps asking when I am going to start up the stove.

Grisu · Oct 27, 2015

The other problem that I see with running the insert wide open is that all the air you are sending up the chimney needs to be replaced. Thus, your house will pull in a lot of cold outside air to make up for the lost combustion air. That's the main reason why old-school fireplaces are so inefficient for heating.

I also never understood why the air needs to be kept open to get the insert/stove "hotter". Granted, I have very good draft but when I close the air fully my insert will still climb to about 700 F stovetop. Anything beyond that and I would start worrying about an overfire.

orionsbelt77 · Oct 27, 2015

orionsbelt77 said:
I clean my chimney twice a season. I just cleaned it today with the Gardus Soot eater rotary system, removing what was deposited from mid season to spring. About three months worth of burning 4 hrs per night. I got about two three pound coffee cans worth of fluffy soot. I burn dry wood and as you know at the high heat setting. I run three foot long extensions up the chimney until it ends at the cap. At that time, I reverse the direction on the drill and begin the downward trek. I would love only getting a one three pound coffee can full of soot after a year, but I wind up with about four of those. As long as I was at it, I also replaced the ceramic blanket with a new one. I also discovered that I also need new bottom firebrick as some of them are crumbling.........that, and I discovered that my gasket at the top does not meet the dollar test. It does on the sides, but not the top. My insert is on a level which is at ground level, a level which we spend the most time and gets very cold. My dogs love the heat and bark at me when I get home, wanting a fire to lay beside. They crack me up sitting by the fireplace barking, waiting for heat. When they see me hauling wood in from outside they begin to whine and know what is in store for them. I have to shoo them away at first, when I am building the fire, but after it is going good, they settle in in front of it. I will take your advice and burn slower and see how it goes. I may just have the worst setup for burning wood that can be, but I am stubborn and will not cave in. Dammit! I am going to burn wood! Thank you pal for your input!

[email protected] said:
I take back my comments. If you really have backdraft problems when the insert is burning, well, that's a different story. I don't know why that would happen, but if you say it does, I believe you .

Mp

orionsbelt77 · Oct 27, 2015

orionsbelt77 said:
Mp

orionsbelt77 · Oct 28, 2015

begreen said:
That's sounds like a lot of sote. For comparison after burning 3 cord and using the Sooteater with a 20ft chimney we are getting about 2 cups of sote. Our chimney gets cleaned once a year.

It could be that by running wide open the stove is burning dirty. Cutting down the air starts secondary combustion which burns hotter and cleaner.

Animals love the warmth. Our cat keeps asking when I am going to start up the stove.

My dogs will bark at me while sitting beside the fireplace, waiting for me to start a fire. About the amount of soot......I reexamined the amount of soot I took out yesterday and I would say a coffee can full. It's shiny clean now (the liner, not the coffee can). I am all for getting the most out of my wood and insert. This site is awesome as to it's members and information and guidance. I will try burning slower, cooler fires and see what happens. It could just be too that by not burning 24/7 like some folks, it is simply a matter of accumulation by starting from scratch daily and the soot is a buildup from so many cold starts.

baysideburner · Oct 28, 2015

orionsbelt77 said:
Hi. I have suggested that my set up is not the norm. What can and has happened, to others, is that with a tall chimney and running up the outside of the house and running a stove at low output is that the flue cools enough to backdraft. Sometimes it is a hot backdraft and other times a cold one.
I wish to avoid both. Now, if I miss a day of burning during cold weather I get a cold downdraft at the appliance as by negative pressure. This is not unusual with a tall outside chimney. To overcome the negative pressure I must open a window near the insert and wait for the pressure to reverse before I attempt to light a fire, otherwise I get a room full of smoke. I know taller chimneys have a tendency to create more draft than shorter ones. One thing I have to do is to check whether the installers removed the cover for the outside air intake. It could just be that the reason I can run both air controls wide open with no problem is because the thing simply is not getting the air that it should and does not overfire.. I will let you know what I find out. I should also point out that before I had the insert installed, I burned fires in the masonry fireplace and had a battle with negative pressure at times so bad, nothing I did could overcome it. I tried hairdryers, propane heaters, to no avail and had to give up. The cover I referred to allows room air to enter. The cover remains in place when venting air in from outside via a port in the side of the insert. Talk to you soon, bud.

in the case of negative backdrfting i have the a foolproof method you should all try. i take a single double wide pice of newspaper and roll it long ways . it ends up being about two feet long. keeping it tight and without bending snake it up the flue opening . in my stove i have to move over one of the baffles. let it slightly unroll once its all the way up the flue and light one end. within seconds the flames race up the middle of the paper channeling all the heat up and it takes off like a blowtorch. you can actually see the reversal of air its amazingly quick with no smoke backup in the house. my only other recomndation is hve the stove with a small load ready to go so the air doesnt begin to reverse again while you get ready to make a fire

Grisu · Oct 28, 2015

orionsbelt77 said:
I will try burning slower, cooler fires and see what happens.

Kudos for trying. Do you actually know that restricting the air will reduce the stovetemp in your case? Secondary combustion is so great because most of the heat is kept in the stove. My stovetop temps increase when I reduce the air.

begreen · Oct 29, 2015

Likewise. Less air means a hotter stove due to the more robust secondary combustion. With a 600F stove top our probe measured flue temp runs about 500F.

orionsbelt77 · Oct 29, 2015

baysideburner said:
in the case of negative backdrfting i have the a foolproof method you should all try. i take a single double wide pice of newspaper and roll it long ways . it ends up being about two feet long. keeping it tight and without bending snake it up the flue opening . in my stove i have to move over one of the baffles. let it slightly unroll once its all the way up the flue and light one end. within seconds the flames race up the middle of the paper channeling all the heat up and it takes off like a blowtorch. you can actually see the reversal of air its amazingly quick with no smoke backup in the house. my only other recomndation is hve the stove with a small load ready to go so the air doesnt begin to reverse again while you get ready to make a fire

Hi, thanks for the input. In order for this method as you suggest to work, I would have to remove the baffles and the ceramic blanket.. Everyone's situation is different. If we all lived under the same conditions with the exact same liner size and length and all had the same stoves, then great, but that is not the case. I do appreciate all the input from members and what works for an individual is based on trial and error with their particular circumstances. When I state my situation, it has been greeted with heresy to a degree. I acknowledge that everyone's system is different and one size fits all, does not. This applies to all of us burners. I have learned a lot from these pages and will continue for not one of us knows everything, even if we think we do. This includes me. Now back to negative pressure. Introducing heat from anything burning will come right back at me, no matter how long I try. This is only in very cold temps of course, but after filling the house with smoke by introducing more and more burning material, thinking that I was going to win, was at the very least futile..........and creating a very mad wife to boot. The open window is what actually works for me, and I stress, for me. Your suggestion sounds very reasonable and should work in most circumstances, but since my house and chimney system was designed by Dr.Seuss, I am at the mercy of his physical laws and akin to Rube Goldberg scenarios. Happy burning pal!

orionsbelt77 · Oct 29, 2015

begreen said:
Likewise. Less air means a hotter stove due to the more robust secondary combustion. With a 600F stove top our probe measured flue temp runs about 500F.

But you had stated that my stove should not run as hot as you think it is at wide open air controls and I maintain that it does not run that hot. I will reduce my air flow as per your recommendation and see what happens. In the past, I have had trouble keeping my fire going well with the reduced air flow and ended up with a bunch of charcoal, even though the wood is very dry (per moisture meter). I am at a crossroads here. Either I burn wide open and consume all the fuel, or reduce the air and end up with unburned wood, but at a lower temp. This may be a mystery of mysteries in fire dynamics....I have everything going for me and everything going against me at the same time. Maybe we will figure this out.

begreen · Oct 29, 2015

Every stove setup is different. On our stove the air can be turned almost all the way down in mild weather and all the way down in cold weather when the draft is stronger. That is how we maintain long burn times with almost no flue build up. You'll need to experiment a bit to see what works for your setup. Instrumentation helps see what's happening. We have a stove top thermometer and a probe thermometer about 20" above the stovetop. It's harder to do this with an insert. An IR thermometer can help for spot temp readings. If you can get a spot reading off the liner or flue collar remember that the flue gas temps inside will typically be about 1.5x hotter.

Negative pressure is not fun to deal with. It can be dangerous if a stove reverses draft while everyone is sleeping or not home. If opening a window works, adding an outside air supply should help fix this issue permanently. In the meantime keep the smoke and CO detector batteries fresh.

Grisu · Oct 29, 2015

orionsbelt77 said:
even though the wood is very dry (per moisture meter)

Not sure if you posted that already but did you split those pieces in half and pressed the pins in the center of the fresh surface? Only this way you will get the true internal moisture content.

orionsbelt77 said:
Either I burn wide open and consume all the fuel, or reduce the air and end up with unburned wood, but at a lower temp.

When you turn down the air do you see flames in the top of the firebox? It may look like they are coming out of the burn tubes there. Just wondering whether your secondary air path is maybe blocked.

Since your fireplace is at an exterior wall you may also want to look into insulating it. That will keep more heat in the home and also maintain higher insert temps which should reduce coal accumulation. See e. g. here: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/finally-got-around-to-insulating-my-fireplace.75755/ and https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...x-roxul-n-durock-install.148184/#post-1991984

In the long run, changing to an insulated liner should also help in curing many of your problems with low draft and creosote accumulation.

orionsbelt77 · Nov 5, 2015

Grisu said:
Not sure if you posted that already but did you split those pieces in half and pressed the pins in the center of the fresh surface? Only this way you will get the true internal moisture content.

When you turn down the air do you see flames in the top of the firebox? It may look like they are coming out of the burn tubes there. Just wondering whether your secondary air path is maybe blocked.

Since your fireplace is at an exterior wall you may also want to look into insulating it. That will keep more heat in the home and also maintain higher insert temps which should reduce coal accumulation. See e. g. here: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/finally-got-around-to-insulating-my-fireplace.75755/ and https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...x-roxul-n-durock-install.148184/#post-1991984

In the long run, changing to an insulated liner should also help in curing many of your problems with low draft and creosote accumulation.

orionsbelt77 · Nov 5, 2015

Yes, I see flames coming from the burn tubes and yes, I split the wood before I test it, in fact, I split the wood regardless. If I place too large of pieces in, they will not burn completely, so no rounds, even if only three inches. My liner is not insulated....the installers said it was not necessary as the liner runs up through a clay stack inside a brick chimney. They had to ovalize it quite a bit to get it in. Ah, which I found out later trying to clean the flue with a six inch round brush from the top and it got stuck....thus the Gardus rotary system, which I like better anyway. If I fill the firebox full of wood and turn down the air, I get nothing but charcoal pieces left over. As long as I use small split pieces with the air wide open, does it comsume all the wood.

begreen · Nov 5, 2015

If the wood is marginal try turning down the air less so that the fire gets more air.

jophysx · Nov 5, 2015

And now we have come full circle!

begreen · Nov 5, 2015

More like a massive tangent from the OP's original question. My bad, this should have been steered to a separate thread.

And yes, I mentioned poorly seasoned wood quite a while back.

orionsbelt77 · Nov 6, 2015

begreen said:
More like a massive tangent from the OP's original question. My bad, this should have been steered to a separate thread.

And yes, I mentioned poorly seasoned wood quite a while back.

Well, I will let you all know what happens by running the stove with less air. Hard to believe that it is already November 6th, and I have not yet had a fire. One thing puzzles me yet and that is my dollar test.............I can pull it out on the top, but not the sides of the door. Quad recommends that I remove a washer from the handle to increase pressure on the gasket. I removed the nut from the handle and removed the cam latch, but the shaft is keyed as to lock the cam to the shaft and the washers are round. I do not know how they got them there and the handle shaft cannot be removed from the opposite side. Unless that key can also be removed, I am at an end. Anyone familiar with this stove please let me in on the secret. Thanks,Begreen for all your input and support, I do appreciate it and will apply your suggestions as to my burning habits. Thanks too, to all here that lend a helping hand to us other woodburners!

begreen · Nov 6, 2015

Looks like the cam is just held by friction from the key. If so it should tap apart, but heat can may have oxidized the metals a bit? Maybe spray both sides of the cam with PB Blaster or WD40 and let sit overnight, then carefully (watch the glass) tap apart?

Screen Shot 2015-11-06 at 5.01.11 PM.png

orionsbelt77 · Nov 8, 2015

begreen said:
Both of these stoves are good looking. The Voyageur is one of the nicer looking flush units on the market. Quad makes good products but the flush face of the Voyageur is the main negative IMO. Flush inserts are too reliant on the blower to help them convect heat for my liking. The Voyageur also uses non standard sized firebrick. Treat them nicely or there could be a surprising replacement cost for a new set or be prepared to cut standard pumice brick down to fit.

Owning a Voyageur, I can attest to the brick size......all of them on the sides and back plus the center floor brick are standard size. I have replaced those......all of them except the center floor brick were replaced sooner than needed as the back and sides were actually in fine condition. The center floor brick was the worst of the bunch. The other floor bricks are oddly shaped and one can either cut them to size or order only the floor brick complete layout.. I too, wish it were otherwise, but the shape of the firebox, being wider at the front than at the rear, demands the odd shape layout. I have not yet priced the floor brick layout, which would be the easier to do, but one could score the new bricks, using the old bricks as a template and break them to size. When the time comes, we will see which one I end up doing.

orionsbelt77 · Nov 8, 2015

begreen said:
Looks like the cam is just held by friction from the key. If so it should tap apart, but heat can may have oxidized the metals a bit? Maybe spray both sides of the cam with PB Blaster or WD40 and let sit overnight, then carefully (watch the glass) tap apart?

View attachment 166239

It could very well be that the key is set in a channel cut in the shaft. Everything is so blackened by fire that one cannot tell even with a high power led flashlight, but it is something I could try. The manual it comes with has it's shortcomings and does not explain things as fully as if I had written it. I had doused the holding nut with WD40 prior to removal and was careful not to spray the glass, using a paper towel to catch the overspray and cleaned the glass again after that anyway just in case. The washers are round and had to be placed on the shaft somehow. That key has to be able to be removed, otherwise, I am up the creek.

orionsbelt77 · Nov 8, 2015

begreen said:
Looks like the cam is just held by friction from the key. If so it should tap apart, but heat can may have oxidized the metals a bit? Maybe spray both sides of the cam with PB Blaster or WD40 and let sit overnight, then carefully (watch the glass) tap apart?

View attachment 166239

Dang! I looked at the diagram you sent magnified and there is a channel cut into the shaft! I sure had not seen that when I removed the nut. Looks as though I need the WD40 again plus a needle nose pliers employed for this endeavor. Thanks, pal!

Wood Insert: Quadrafire Voyageur or Hampton HI300

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