Maple1 - There is fire brick lining the bottom between the ash slots and there is fire brick that lines the sides and back.
Englander 28-3500 tips
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lexybird
Minister of Fire
I'm sure your buddy means well and is knowledgable on fireplaces but I owned a 28/3500 for 5 years as my sole heat for my home nd I would not take that advise on these things . We never froze and I had good success with this unit although I have since upgraded I must say it served us well for the money . First off It's gotta have some air coming up through that spin knob under the fire or it'll coal up once the temps drop and you'll be stuck with low heat and 10 " bed of coals in January . Not to mention you'll get a dirty burn if your just using the air slide above the fire .the grate in the floor is a fine design wood and coals specifically lasts longer when the floor is firebrick lined instead of iron shaker grates like most smoke dragons . All new EPA stoves are brick floor lined . If the ash drawer is packed full of ashes no desirable air can come up through hence why the drawer is designed narrow compared the opening size . No need for adding steel plates or other nonsense to take up space , you'll want that space for air flow ..For overnights pack her up to the baffle and set the spin knob open a quarter to maybe half a turn out and air slide over with a quarter travel open from right you'll get good results . Granted you should let it catch and burn before you close her down . Liquid creosote oozing is from one thing and that's water in your wood , not seasoned enough . It's the only way and you need good dry seasoned firewood or that is what you can expect . I can help you tune it . I had my damper 18" up from unit and I opened up the 8" hole to 10 to allow more air flow .
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Lexibird...first thank you for you input, but I have to state that he is not my "buddy". He is the man in the fireplace store that I went into to buy pipe. When I explained my dilemma to him and asked if he knew about these stoves he said yes and I asked questions. Just like I did here. Input from a source like you who has one of these and knows its intricacies is exactly what I am looking for. This furnace is like a petulant child, give it what it wants and its behaves,... don't... and it will aggravate you.... lol
I posted his answers to my questions here to get a general consensus on what he had to say and to see if any of you had anything to either add or refute.
The firebrick solution was to keep the ash from falling to the sides of the narrow ash pan, and like I posted, .... it was his opinion. If it works I'll stick with it. If not, I have spare fire brick....
If I see the coal bed darkening up, I'll take your advise and I will open the spin draft to let more air.....again I need more time in the drivers seat on this beast. I am new to this stove and am taking ALL information received and processing it.
I currently have a fire going and I have to say that so far what he told me has been working. But again I am still figuring this thing out.
To use a term from the range....."I'm on the paper".
FYI, the creosote situation seems to have been resolved. Time will tell, but based on the first few fires with the old pipe setup vs. the new pipe setup, things seem to be much better. I am burning the same wood, but have taken the extra step of making sure that I have a nice deep bed of coals. I'm sure that both have helped the situation but to what degree each worked, I cant tell ya. I do see that the fire is breathing better and there is almost no smoke now once I got the beast heated up.
More updates as events warrant.
I posted his answers to my questions here to get a general consensus on what he had to say and to see if any of you had anything to either add or refute.
The firebrick solution was to keep the ash from falling to the sides of the narrow ash pan, and like I posted, .... it was his opinion. If it works I'll stick with it. If not, I have spare fire brick....
If I see the coal bed darkening up, I'll take your advise and I will open the spin draft to let more air.....again I need more time in the drivers seat on this beast. I am new to this stove and am taking ALL information received and processing it.
I currently have a fire going and I have to say that so far what he told me has been working. But again I am still figuring this thing out.
To use a term from the range....."I'm on the paper".
FYI, the creosote situation seems to have been resolved. Time will tell, but based on the first few fires with the old pipe setup vs. the new pipe setup, things seem to be much better. I am burning the same wood, but have taken the extra step of making sure that I have a nice deep bed of coals. I'm sure that both have helped the situation but to what degree each worked, I cant tell ya. I do see that the fire is breathing better and there is almost no smoke now once I got the beast heated up.
More updates as events warrant.
lexybird
Minister of Fire
It's probably worth mentioning that every install is different and your settings and adjustments may not work as mine have for me .perhaps your local dealers ideas may prove to work better in your case . The good news is the furnace is a great value and The unit is safe and well made it will do what it's intended to do if you follow good burning practices and give enough air . It's Probably the best of the smoke dragon style furnaces in my opinion . The Drawbacks are having to adjust it manually ( running up and down stairs ) as it goes through the heating cycles and various outside conditions .its a dirty burner compared to comparable EPA furnaces and requires more wood too . In general I found It's well behaved once you get accustomed to what it likes and find its sweet ( cruise) spot using air control .loaded up with seasoned hardwood and with minimal air you should get 8 hours of burn time per charge . I would sweep the flue twice per season and don't leave that ash door open while a strong fire is going or you'll warp your baffle
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Agreed, I actually have a reoccurring task list that includes inspect and if needed clean the flue every 2 months during the burn season. Being a firefighter, having a chimney fire in my own local would not bode well for me.
I have asked many people regarding the barometric damper. Now gain I MUST preface that I have never used one, I know NOTHING about using them, but I have received the same information from different people including my "buddy" .. lol.
I am bringing what I was told here to get more input from a broader spectrum of people, but I must say, what I am about to share seems plausible.
My furnace is in the basement, my home is relatively sealed (not drafty). This is important for the test that I had to do. I am going to try not to bounce around, but please follow me.
The barometric damper was explained to me that it takes air from the surrounding area and automatically adjusts the airflow through the flue by allowing air to enter the damper / flue when needed. Now, we also have a blower on the wood furnace that also takes air from the surrounding area and blows it through the house to disperse the hot air. The air that the wood furnace blower needs is the same air that the barometric damper needs. If you also use the blower on your main furnace to help distribute the air, this uses more of the same air that the damper needs.
NOW...this is where things got interesting.....and this is based on my situation where the house is sealed. I was told that I should run the blower and begin to close the basement door, if the door gets sucked shut, then I am creating a negative air pressure gradient in the basement. With this situation, I should NOT install a barometric damper in the flue pipe because the blower and the damper will be fighting for the same air. I was told that the damper will actually get sucked shut and require more internal "flue pressure" to work properly because of the negative pressure in the basement caused by the blower. Now I could open a window or something to allow more air in the basement to counteract the negative air pressure, but this would defeat the purpose of having a weather-tight sealed house.
....and yes, as I closed the basement door, pushing it with 1 finger from the back, when I got about 3" from closed, the door got sucked shut. I turned off the blower and did the same thing and the door stayed open until I pushed it all the way to closed.
I was told that the barometric damper works well in situations where the house is not well sealed, or in an area like a first floor installation where there is usually more available air so that it can work properly.
Thoughts / commentary.......
I have asked many people regarding the barometric damper. Now gain I MUST preface that I have never used one, I know NOTHING about using them, but I have received the same information from different people including my "buddy" .. lol.
I am bringing what I was told here to get more input from a broader spectrum of people, but I must say, what I am about to share seems plausible.
My furnace is in the basement, my home is relatively sealed (not drafty). This is important for the test that I had to do. I am going to try not to bounce around, but please follow me.
The barometric damper was explained to me that it takes air from the surrounding area and automatically adjusts the airflow through the flue by allowing air to enter the damper / flue when needed. Now, we also have a blower on the wood furnace that also takes air from the surrounding area and blows it through the house to disperse the hot air. The air that the wood furnace blower needs is the same air that the barometric damper needs. If you also use the blower on your main furnace to help distribute the air, this uses more of the same air that the damper needs.
NOW...this is where things got interesting.....and this is based on my situation where the house is sealed. I was told that I should run the blower and begin to close the basement door, if the door gets sucked shut, then I am creating a negative air pressure gradient in the basement. With this situation, I should NOT install a barometric damper in the flue pipe because the blower and the damper will be fighting for the same air. I was told that the damper will actually get sucked shut and require more internal "flue pressure" to work properly because of the negative pressure in the basement caused by the blower. Now I could open a window or something to allow more air in the basement to counteract the negative air pressure, but this would defeat the purpose of having a weather-tight sealed house.
....and yes, as I closed the basement door, pushing it with 1 finger from the back, when I got about 3" from closed, the door got sucked shut. I turned off the blower and did the same thing and the door stayed open until I pushed it all the way to closed.
I was told that the barometric damper works well in situations where the house is not well sealed, or in an area like a first floor installation where there is usually more available air so that it can work properly.
Thoughts / commentary.......
brenndatomu
Minister of Fire
True, BUT, If you have a negative pressure in the basement (which it sounds like you do when the door is shut) then you also have a dangerous situation where smoke/fumes can be pulled from the stove pipe when the blower kicks on. You need to install some sort of dedicated return air duct or vent.
Now back to the baro, it is true that things won't work well if the blower and the baro are competing for the same air. Many people have air sealed houses and still use a baro. You would need to install a outside air "kit" (makeup air), a simple 4" vent hood and a pipe or flex duct to nearby the furnace that has a J trap or something similar at the bottom to keep cold air from flooding into the basement.
Like I said in my earlier post, I'd try to just use a manual damper. A baro cools the flue gasses and it can be very difficult to keep the flue from creosoting up unless you have a very clean burning stove. A manometer is a highly recommended tool here...
Thanks...
As part of the new flue pipe system I installed a manual damper...
The outside vent kit idea sounds simple enough.
Its supposed to get into the 30's over the weekend at night so I'll have it fired up..
I'll report on how things go...
As part of the new flue pipe system I installed a manual damper...
The outside vent kit idea sounds simple enough.
Its supposed to get into the 30's over the weekend at night so I'll have it fired up..
I'll report on how things go...
lexybird
Minister of Fire
I think you'll find a baro is not needed .sometimes when I ran mine I'd had to open the closest basement window for a while at the startup to equalize pressure out and I have ound that worked very well in my case . I had no fancy return air box or outside air . It's made to draw cool air off the basement floor without a return and i found it does that quite well creating a loop effect . Wait till the weather dips for an extended period of time before you start adding or taking away things . The cold air and wind will alter your draft and effect performance so don't do drastic changes just yet
maple1
Minister of Fire
My thought is that is more a sign your ductwork is deficient than anything - sounds like it is very unbalanced, and could fill your house with CO. And you might need some fresh air intake of some sort.
Well at this point I am going to run it and learn more about how it likes to burn...
The last fire was quite promising..and now I need time in the drivers seat..
I'll keep ya posted..
The last fire was quite promising..and now I need time in the drivers seat..
I'll keep ya posted..
Good morning.
Had what I will consider great success last night, 30 degrees outside, 78 inside. Looks like the summer shorts are not being put away just yet.
I followed everybodys suggestions, and I must agree with Lexybird about the spin damper. I fiddled with it and when all the way closed the coal bed did darken and flue temps dropped.
Now, the furnace is stock, I did not add fire brick to the bottom. I figured that I should know how this thing runs bone stock before I start making adjustments. The manual flue damper was left full open, I still don't know how to adjust this, but small steps.....when I learn it, its there. My Dutch West didn't need one, so I have never used one. Some advice in this would be appreciated.
I built up the coal bed and fire making 2-3 log additions until it was full to the baffle plate. Once I had nice flue temp and "good looking" flames, I took lexybirds advice and turned the spin damper to a 1/4 turn open and the slide damper to just a little over 1/4 open, fire burned for 7 hours. I also checked the smoke out of the stack, there was no visible smoke.
This morning the flue temp was just above the low red zone. I raked the coals and reloaded, it rekindled and we are back in action.
Now, I checked for creosote. While the coal bed was low, I opened the main door and then the ash pan door, don't want to overfire by feeding the coals from below...I pulled the ash pan out and checked the back of the inside of the stove. There was creosote on the back, not much but it was there. This time it was the thick tarry creosote that I would expect to see. Curiously, this area is directly in front of where the blower blows the air in for the main heat output. I also noticed that the most rearward coals were not burning evenly, it seems that the air isn't getting to the back of the stove and up into the coal bed. The fire seems to burn front to back. Is this normal? Any tips for this, or is the the nature of this beast? I raked the unburned coals to the front and evened them out, they caught right up.
Had what I will consider great success last night, 30 degrees outside, 78 inside. Looks like the summer shorts are not being put away just yet.
I followed everybodys suggestions, and I must agree with Lexybird about the spin damper. I fiddled with it and when all the way closed the coal bed did darken and flue temps dropped.
Now, the furnace is stock, I did not add fire brick to the bottom. I figured that I should know how this thing runs bone stock before I start making adjustments. The manual flue damper was left full open, I still don't know how to adjust this, but small steps.....when I learn it, its there. My Dutch West didn't need one, so I have never used one. Some advice in this would be appreciated.
I built up the coal bed and fire making 2-3 log additions until it was full to the baffle plate. Once I had nice flue temp and "good looking" flames, I took lexybirds advice and turned the spin damper to a 1/4 turn open and the slide damper to just a little over 1/4 open, fire burned for 7 hours. I also checked the smoke out of the stack, there was no visible smoke.
This morning the flue temp was just above the low red zone. I raked the coals and reloaded, it rekindled and we are back in action.
Now, I checked for creosote. While the coal bed was low, I opened the main door and then the ash pan door, don't want to overfire by feeding the coals from below...I pulled the ash pan out and checked the back of the inside of the stove. There was creosote on the back, not much but it was there. This time it was the thick tarry creosote that I would expect to see. Curiously, this area is directly in front of where the blower blows the air in for the main heat output. I also noticed that the most rearward coals were not burning evenly, it seems that the air isn't getting to the back of the stove and up into the coal bed. The fire seems to burn front to back. Is this normal? Any tips for this, or is the the nature of this beast? I raked the unburned coals to the front and evened them out, they caught right up.
maple1
Minister of Fire
If you are using a magnetic pipe thermometer, those can be notoriously inaccurate. It is a lot hotter inside the pipe that what they read. I have a probe & magnetic beside each other - when I am burning, the magnetic reads 100c less than the probe.
So that's like - 400°F on the magnetic = 575°F internal. In my case. Give or take a bit. So back when I was using my old boiler with the same magnetic guage, and it was showing at the top area of the 'safe burn zone', it was actually burning too hot. Each case might be different depending on the thermometer. (I have read others posting worse numbers).
If I was depending on flue pipe temp to determine how I operated, I would get a probe. Just more FYI stuff. Also, a manometer can also be used to dial in your duct work & get that balanced. I would have both especially if I was getting a furnace set up - but some have happily operated for years with neither.
So that's like - 400°F on the magnetic = 575°F internal. In my case. Give or take a bit. So back when I was using my old boiler with the same magnetic guage, and it was showing at the top area of the 'safe burn zone', it was actually burning too hot. Each case might be different depending on the thermometer. (I have read others posting worse numbers).
If I was depending on flue pipe temp to determine how I operated, I would get a probe. Just more FYI stuff. Also, a manometer can also be used to dial in your duct work & get that balanced. I would have both especially if I was getting a furnace set up - but some have happily operated for years with neither.
Probe thermo is going to happen...just dont know where in the pipe would be good... I've heard 18" above the flue collar. ..or would above the "tee" be better?
Also.... my blower motor says that it needs to be oiled.... ok... where do I oil it... I looked all over it and dont see any oil ports...
Also.... my blower motor says that it needs to be oiled.... ok... where do I oil it... I looked all over it and dont see any oil ports...
brenndatomu
Minister of Fire
FaithfulWoodsman
Minister of Fire
Some do and some do not. Mine has an oil port, but it is hard to find and even harder to oil. If it has one look on the top right back edge of the black motor housing (closest to the blades). You should see an 1/8" hole/port on the top edge. Inside the housing you should be able to see the small tube that leads to the motor. I use a syringe with a bent needle to get to mine. I've heard that other units my differ on location. Hope that helps.
BTW....... I appreciate all the knowledge offered on this forum. 2nd year burning, much better than the first so far. First post. Long time viewer.
BTW....... I appreciate all the knowledge offered on this forum. 2nd year burning, much better than the first so far. First post. Long time viewer.
I added the probe flue thermo.. what a difference between the 2 gauges.
I was fiddling with the manual flue damper.... trying to dial it in... I was having a bit of trouble keeping the coals, fire temps etc...
I spoke to Englander tech support.... they told me that per the manual "Do not install a flue damper".
So I read the manual.... yep... page 5 of the manual says "DO NOT install a flue pipe damper or any other restrictive device in the exhaust venting system of this unit."
Thoughts?
I was fiddling with the manual flue damper.... trying to dial it in... I was having a bit of trouble keeping the coals, fire temps etc...
I spoke to Englander tech support.... they told me that per the manual "Do not install a flue damper".
So I read the manual.... yep... page 5 of the manual says "DO NOT install a flue pipe damper or any other restrictive device in the exhaust venting system of this unit."
Thoughts?
brenndatomu
Minister of Fire
My thoughts would be that none of the wood furnace manufacturers (to my knowledge) will recommend a manual damper on a furnace because they tend to be in the basement, and "out of sight out of mind". It would be easy to damp things back a lil to far and the draft could slowly die down and get low enough to allow the firebox/stovepipe to smoke into the house after you go upstairs. I still would have no problem with doing it as long as you are very familiar with your furnace and more importantly, your chimney, and how they act throughout a burn cycle. If you have a chimney that acts very reliably without surprises during squirrely weather I'd keep using it...but with a manometer. Kind of hard to know how fast you are going without a speedometer, same with chimney draft.
That's my opinion on the subject...
That's my opinion on the subject...
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lexybird
Minister of Fire
Yes the manual says don't do the damper and in some cases it's not helpful but as was mentioned it is a liability thing . The damper not only changes the draft it helps keep heat into the unit .epa units don't need one because they work in a much different fashion with more internal temperature to promote secondary combustion and less incoming air so a strong draft is important when they" close down " . You can watch this happen on a modern EPA stove that's just getting going you close the door prematurely and it snuffs a fire out like you turned off a switch . Esw says to manage your heat output only use the air controls to choke it down ..the fact is though that your only going to reduce air coming into the unit this way and not the heat that's leaving and going out of the the unit . If I had to guess an estimate I'd say adding one gave my old furnace an hour or two of extra burn time . It's worth a try , moniter it and watch for creosote . I would keep the damper fairly close the furnace (2 feet or closer) so as to keep the heat high to prevent potential buildup collecting around the flap
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FaithfulWoodsman
Minister of Fire
I put one in mine this year after feeling like I was losing too much heat last year. We have a strong draft and I like having the control to close it down a bit. Especially when windy. Haven't played with it enough to measure burn times yet.
Were in the zone..... Tropics... 30 degrees outside, 78 inside. The Dragon is alive and kicking. Had to open a window...
I was reading other threads about the probe vs. the magnet thermo. Apparently the probes are quite unreliable for reading temps on a single wall pipe. My magnetic reads 500.... the probe is 1100... hard to believe that there is that much of a difference. A few hundred maybe....
There was a series of threads that discussed the problems using the probe on a single wall pipe. I tried to make a heat shield, but it didnt work. I'm going to leave both of them in and take the average.
Do they make a single wall probe thermo? I looked all over, but could not locate one.
I was reading other threads about the probe vs. the magnet thermo. Apparently the probes are quite unreliable for reading temps on a single wall pipe. My magnetic reads 500.... the probe is 1100... hard to believe that there is that much of a difference. A few hundred maybe....
There was a series of threads that discussed the problems using the probe on a single wall pipe. I tried to make a heat shield, but it didnt work. I'm going to leave both of them in and take the average.
Do they make a single wall probe thermo? I looked all over, but could not locate one.
maple1
Minister of Fire
According to posters on Hearth.com.... I did a search on probe thermos and read a ton of posts....they are unreliable because the heat that emanates off of single wall pipe affects their accuracy.. in fact on the package from my new probe thermo... it states that it is not for use on single wall pipe...
brenndatomu
Minister of Fire
I used a probe type on single wall. Gotta make a good sized heat shield. I cut out a 4x4 patch of 6" stove pipe, drilled a hole in it for the probe with the little spacer on it to go through, and then bent the top and bottom of the shield in at about 90* to act as a 1/4 standoff from the stove pipe, if that makes sense. So as far as the probe is concerned, at that point it is in "double wall".
I suppose you could even just cut off a short section of extra stove pipe, slit it down the side so that you could put it over your pipe from the Englander, come up with some sort of "spacers"...hmm, maybe some 1/4" bolts bolted through the "shield" from the inside, the thickness of the head would be the spacer so to speak. Kinda hillbilly I 'spose, prolly work though.
These type of thermos aren't really known for their accuracy anyways...
I suppose you could even just cut off a short section of extra stove pipe, slit it down the side so that you could put it over your pipe from the Englander, come up with some sort of "spacers"...hmm, maybe some 1/4" bolts bolted through the "shield" from the inside, the thickness of the head would be the spacer so to speak. Kinda hillbilly I 'spose, prolly work though.
These type of thermos aren't really known for their accuracy anyways...
maple1
Minister of Fire
I guess all probes are not created equal.
Mine is in single wall & works great. No idea the brand, it came with my boiler. Think it's Euro in origin.
We've also got one in our mapling furnace - single wall there too. Also works great. Don't know what brand that is either, can't see it from here. But neither one resembles what I've seen on some stove websites, both seem quite accurate. Big nice white face dial guages.
Mine is in single wall & works great. No idea the brand, it came with my boiler. Think it's Euro in origin.
We've also got one in our mapling furnace - single wall there too. Also works great. Don't know what brand that is either, can't see it from here. But neither one resembles what I've seen on some stove websites, both seem quite accurate. Big nice white face dial guages.
A lot of the posters on the other threads suggested a few different types of standoffs and heat shields. Even with that the readings were way off for most. One guy even went to the trouble of using his fluke meter with a thermocouple, and found that the meters were way off. In fact another poster put the end of the probe in boiling water (212 deg F) and the meter read over 400 degrees. I read that the end of the probe needs to be in the center of the flue pipe for the most accurate reading. Given the length of the probe, and the thickness of a double wall pipe, this would make sense. Right now I have it pulled out from the pipe, but it is kinda dangling down. The weather is supposed top warm up by this weekend. I'm going to fab up a standoff to mimic double wall pipe. I'll take some pics of the before readings and the after readings.
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