Need help / guidance ...

jjmak · Dec 1, 2015

Hi All,

I am brand new to the forum - and new to wood stoves/inserts. I have already spent close to two hours reading other posts and responses, etc., but I still need to ask for some guidance. I was planning on a wood insert for an existing, masonry fireplace opening. It is 36" wide, 30 1/4" high, 23" deep. It tapers back to 28 1/2' wide. It has an elevated hearth 18" wide (12" or so off the ground). The room is our family room, on a slab with no heat. The room is about 15' x 20' with a vaulted ceiling about 15' high. The insulation is good, but it has two skylights and a three gang glass sliding door on one wall. Yes, there is a ceiling fan. Our kitchen is the adjacent room with an entrance into the family room about 10' wide and the vaulted ceiling continues into this portion of the kitchen. The kitchen does have two heater vents (gas, forced air), but it gets cool/cold without any heat in the family room ... especially in the open area going into the family room. We had a gas insert that worked well, but it needs to be replaced and we would like to go with wood.

I am really only looking to heat the family room and help warm the kitchen. I have a center hall colonial, but the family room is off on the side by itself (again, adjacent to the kitchen). Inasmuch as I would love to heat more of the house with a stove or insert, I see no way to get heat to the rest of the house (other than the kitchen) - (there are no returns in the family room or the kitchen).

My questions are:
(1) I was assuming I would go with an insert, but have seen many who go with a wood burning stove sitting in front of, or in the opening. What are the advantages / disadvantages of going with an insert vs a stove?
(2) Is it OK to simply get the original fireplace going again like it was in 1975? Any simple modifications to make this a viable option?
(3) In considering an insert, I looked at a Napolean and Vermont Castings, but was having trouble with the expense ~ $3000. The models I looked at did about 55,000 BTU's. I have since read on this site about the Englander and Century models and would definitely go with one of these less expensive options. Are there other recommendations?

As an aside, I am planning to install myself. Sorry for being so long winded. I appreciate any help.

Thanks,
John

fossil · Dec 1, 2015

A few things:
Wood stoves, whether free-standing or inserts, are space heaters. Trying to move that heat through the house past the family room and a bit in the kitchen, is going to cause you unending frustration and lousy results. Hardly matters that you have no returns in the area, because expecting to move a wood stove's heat from the room it's in to anyplace else through the installed duct work for an existing heating system will fail.

I'm a big fan of free-standing stoves versus inserts, because they're more exposed...so more radiation and convection heat transfer to the room without using an insert's fan continuously. That said, there are, of course, zillions of happy insert users out there.

Using your fireplace the "old way" will just be a waste of wood and a lot of fuss for a little heat transferred to the family room (forget about the kitchen).

When you're figuring a budget for the project, make sure that whichever appliance you choose, you're going to need to install a stainless steel chimney liner from the appliance to daylight...not an insignificant cost.

Dix · Dec 1, 2015

Welcome to the forums !

I can understand the frustration of a not to friendly house layout, but I'm going to say that a rough drawn floor plan posted, will help a lot. My home is not conducive to one stove, so I went with 2, but it took trial and error to get to that point.

I agree with Rick (Fossil), the FP used alone is going to suck heat out of the house. I pondered this in the beginning of my search 7 years ago. Don't go there, your going forward, not back wards

Get started on firewood NOW You won't regret it !!

revdocjim · Dec 1, 2015

If you want to heat the room daily and for extended periods it will require a good supply of dry wood. Usually this means cutting, splitting and stacking wood at least a year before you burn it, although times vary with wood species, local weather, size of splits and method of stacking etc. Other options are buying bio-bricks or already dried firewood. Many people find that firewood sellers often sell wood that isn't adequately dried so finding a good source can be a tedious process. So the first question is do you have access to good firewood and are you prepared to spend the time and/or money to get that wood.

Secondly the cost. Good free standing stoves can be had for under $1,000 but the chimney liner and installation is likely going to cost as much or more. One seasoned burner told me that his experience was as follows. Total cost is usually 1/3 for the stove, 1/3 for the chimney, 1/3 for the installation. Of course stainless steel liners are usually cheaper than an equivalent length of class-A chimney material, and if you really can do the installation yourself that will save money. Other matters to consider are whether your chimney height is sufficient to provide good draw for an EPA approved stove, and whether you will need an outside air kit or not. Also a block off plate will be needed.

Finally, there are various local codes that must be met and to be safe/legal you need to have your plan approved by an inspector. Your insurance company will also probably want to know about this plan and in some cases might increase your premium so it's a good idea to make sure you are clear on that front as well.

As for the insert vs. free standing question, as mentioned above, both can work well in the right setting but at least on a conceptual level the free standing stove is likely to be more efficient because more of the heat generated by the stove goes into the room. The down side is that they take more space, and often require you to increase the size of your hearth, which will be an added cost.

jjmak · Dec 2, 2015

Thank you for your quick responses. I have attached a quick sketch of my downstairs ... very rough and not to scale, but I think will give a better idea of what I am dealing with. From your responses, I am still leaning towards an insert. But, now I am thinking wood may not be a good idea at all. I live on a one acre wooded lot, and I have two 80 foot red oaks that need to come down, plus other options. So, I was not overly concerned about a wood source. However, I have not cut and stored any wood of note. Until I got to this forum, I thought I could burn any wood ... pine, oak, maple, etc. I did know that "better" wood gets better results, but again, I thought I could burn anything. Maybe a wood insert is not a good idea? But if so, are the $1000-ish options still good (knowing I have more to spend on liner, etc.)?
In terms of installing myself, I have no concerns. I have done some research on this and am aware of the liner requirements, etc.

Dix · Dec 2, 2015

jjmak said:
Thank you for your quick responses. I have attached a quick sketch of my downstairs ... very rough and not to scale, but I think will give a better idea of what I am dealing with. From your responses, I am still leaning towards an insert. But, now I am thinking wood may not be a good idea at all. I live on a one acre wooded lot, and I have two 80 foot red oaks that need to come down, plus other options. So, I was not overly concerned about a wood source. However, I have not cut and stored any wood of note. Until I got to this forum, I thought I could burn any wood ... pine, oak, maple, etc. I did know that "better" wood gets better results, but again, I thought I could burn anything. Maybe a wood insert is not a good idea? But if so, are the $1000-ish options still good (knowing I have more to spend on liner, etc.)?
In terms of installing myself, I have no concerns. I have done some research on this and am aware of the liner requirements, etc.

Thanks for the sketch. You are right, it's going to be a bear to heat, but I do see the possibility of some sort of convection loop. Does the vaulted ceiling lead to an opening on the second level (ie open stairway) or is the ceiling just vaulted in the Kitchen?

Second, you can burn most any firewood as long as it's seasoned. Pine will give a much shorter burn time than oak, cherry, maple, or other hard woods, but it will throw heat, and many of us burn it here on the forums, myself included (similar climate to yours). Some will discount pine, but my vote is go for it, Out west, it's can be pretty much all they have.

I love my insert. It gives 7-9 hour burn times on primo firewood, and will throw heat (although minimal) for an hour or two after.It does have an extended front (protrudes from the FP, a huge plus in my book). I love my free stander, but wish it had a larger firebox. FYI the Englander insert has roughly the same size firebox as my free stander (Timber Ride is Englander). The max you're going to get for a burn time is 4-6 hours, depending upon what it's fed. Maybe an hour or 2 of residual heat after the fire burns down.

Until you have a seasoned firewood supply (those 2 oaks will take 1-2 years to season, once they are split( Bio bricks / Envi / Eco bricks might be something to consider as well.

jjmak · Dec 2, 2015

OK, so the firewood will be a little more work than I originally thought. Can you recommend an insert that would heat the family room and help warm the adjacent area of the kitchen? Again, I would prefer a cost effective option.

As an aside, what happens if you burn wood that is not seasoned? Does it harm the stove?

begreen · Dec 2, 2015

Ideally you would want a 3 cu ft insert, but that is going to push you into the $2500-3000 range. There are a several ~$1000 inserts. All are in the 2 cu ft range. This sized insert will provide decent area heat but with more frequent reloads. Look at the Englander 13NCi, Drolet Escape 1800, Century CW2900 and the True North TN20 insert. Or with 30" lintel you could fit in a freestanding version of some of these stoves.

edyit · Dec 3, 2015

jjmak said:
As an aside, what happens if you burn wood that is not seasoned? Does it harm the stove?

a couple things can happen. 1- you'll get discouraged and aggravated with poor performance, smoldering fires, and low heat output. 2- you can create excessive amounts of creosote and possibly a chimney fire.

jjmak · Jan 6, 2016

Hi All,

After doing some more research and visiting homes with inserts and stoves, I think I may want to go with a stove (instead of an insert). Can anyone recommend a good stove option that is cost effective. Again, my fireplace opening is 36" wide, 30 1/4" high, 23" deep. The hearth is about 18" - 24" wide.

Thanks,
John

begreen · Jan 6, 2016

On a budget and for just heating a couple rooms consider the Englander 13NC. It's cheap, sturdy and 28.5" tall. The Avalon Rainier can be installed as a freestanding stove or an insert and can be installed without the surround. Same for the mid-sized Buck stoves.

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