Hi all, looking into boilers for my home. I have heard that the indoor boilers can release soot inside the home even though many claim they are totally clean. Can anyone with an indoor boiler give me their experience? I'm wondering if I should go with an OWB?
soot from indoor boilers?
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I have never seen any soot with my indoor boiler. There is some dust and mess associated with loading wood and removing ash, the same as woodstove or arguably a pellet stove. If you are worried about health effects of burning wood, an OWB is far more insidious source of air born pollution. Inherently they tend to run on "idle" for far longer periods leading to lot of partial combustion. Partial combustion byproducts are a pretty nasty brew of various pollutants including PM2.5 which is about as nasty as it gets for soot. Add in carbon monoxide and various more exotic sounding pollutants and the potential health impact of an OWB is much higher which is why many states either ban then outright or regulate them so that at least the neighbors aren't being exposed to the worst impacts.
Do note the OWB companies are quite deceptive in their advertising, they will show you all sorts of testing showing how clean they can burn and I agree that if there is a heat load they can burn cleanly, the problem is that they don't have any significant thermal storage and are sized for the maximum heating demand so much of their operation is throttled down. The don't publish what the emissions are with the air damper closed and the boiler idling. Indoor wood boilers are built to operate with thermal storage. They are operated in an on/off mode where they burn at full load until the storage is heated up and then shut down. Therefore they are rarely at part throttle. Properly installed they can be more expensive than an OWB but in the long run they burn far less fuel and are far cleaner. They also aren't an "impulse buy" which seems to be an odd phenomena with some OWBs.
Do note the OWB companies are quite deceptive in their advertising, they will show you all sorts of testing showing how clean they can burn and I agree that if there is a heat load they can burn cleanly, the problem is that they don't have any significant thermal storage and are sized for the maximum heating demand so much of their operation is throttled down. The don't publish what the emissions are with the air damper closed and the boiler idling. Indoor wood boilers are built to operate with thermal storage. They are operated in an on/off mode where they burn at full load until the storage is heated up and then shut down. Therefore they are rarely at part throttle. Properly installed they can be more expensive than an OWB but in the long run they burn far less fuel and are far cleaner. They also aren't an "impulse buy" which seems to be an odd phenomena with some OWBs.
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Peak, I did not know that about the carbon monoxide with the owb's, good to know. I have looked at the Froling, but the price is a bit steep, but I guess they are good units. I'm sort of new to this and trying to make the best decision in terms of hassle, safety and economics.
maple1
Minister of Fire
There is some ash produced (not soot), but it doesn't get in my house. My boiler is natural draft, so the chimney creates a constant pull through it (an induced draft - as opposed to forced draft - boiler would create the same effect). So when I do any cleaning, stray ash goes up the pipe. Unless I get careless & were to drop a scoop full of it on the floor or something like that.
If you're looking for a good buy on a boiler, there is one on right now for the Tarm Bonus. You should see a banner ad for it on the site at some point if you browse around a bit. Unless the deal is over. Storage is recommended with it. Froling would be a high end unit. Since you also mentioned hassle, Varms IMO are top of the heap in that department - nothing easier to clean that I've seen yet.
If you're looking for a good buy on a boiler, there is one on right now for the Tarm Bonus. You should see a banner ad for it on the site at some point if you browse around a bit. Unless the deal is over. Storage is recommended with it. Froling would be a high end unit. Since you also mentioned hassle, Varms IMO are top of the heap in that department - nothing easier to clean that I've seen yet.
The OWB dealer I talked to said all IWB's will have soot no matter what the IWB people claim. That got me wondering if I wanted something indoors and if I was going to have problems.
maple1
Minister of Fire
That is coming from a dealer trying to sell you something, and he is trying to help his cause by putting down the alternative. That right there would steer me away from him.
Some IWBs can have some smoke spillage when reloading, but that usually happens if the door is opened when it shouldn't be. Or forgetting to open a bypass before opening the door. From my experience, both with my current gasifier and my old wood/combo unit, both located in the same spot in the basement, soot was not an issue. There will be some wood debris to stay on top of around the boiler & wood pile, but that is easy to do.
Some IWBs can have some smoke spillage when reloading, but that usually happens if the door is opened when it shouldn't be. Or forgetting to open a bypass before opening the door. From my experience, both with my current gasifier and my old wood/combo unit, both located in the same spot in the basement, soot was not an issue. There will be some wood debris to stay on top of around the boiler & wood pile, but that is easy to do.
well, that is why I am asking these questions. I know these guys are salesman and trying to make a sale, but that doesn't mean its not true. Just trying to gather all the info before I make a commitment.
maple1
Minister of Fire
Nothing at all wrong with info gathering to research a purchase - good luck with a future commitment no matter what it ends up being.
I'm kind of curious about what else he was having to say about either IWBs or OWBs - but curiousity can be hard on kitties too, I've heard.
I'm kind of curious about what else he was having to say about either IWBs or OWBs - but curiousity can be hard on kitties too, I've heard.
Basically, iwbs have issues, owbs less issues. My goal is to find out what is bs and what isn't. haha
Fred61
Minister of Fire
Hope you didn't think that an OWB salesman would say something good about an IWB. You did the right thing by asking here. We all have to listen to the sales pitch and then run it all through the Bull Sh!t filter to get as close to the truth as possible.
About the only good thing about an OWB is they typically have huge fireboxes and if someone is stupid enough to do it, they can burn green wood. Of course most of the heating value to the wood will go up the stack as steam vapor but if wood supply is unlimited and the owner too lazy to dry their wood, the unburnt gases normally go up in the air rather than plugging a chimney. Using that logic, the OWB is superior as the house doesn't burn down due to burning green wood.
Thanks guys, I'm glad I found this forum to help weed through that stuff. I wonder how many people are using OWBs and for those that own them if they would buy again? What IWB would you guys recommend if you don't mind me asking?
maple1
Minister of Fire
Buzz Saw
Minister of Fire
RedWingsfan, What's your definition of soot?
Anything that burns will have ash,dirt and a mess. It's just a matter of how you control the environment/ product flow.
At my old house I had pretty much worked all the bugs out and kept the mess reasonable. Now it's a new house, new process. This time around we are going to do a boiler in my new workshop. Easy access to unload wood, cleanup ash, maintenance, happy wife, and radiant floor heat in the workshop. The list goes on.....
Now just to figure it all out....
Anything that burns will have ash,dirt and a mess. It's just a matter of how you control the environment/ product flow.
At my old house I had pretty much worked all the bugs out and kept the mess reasonable. Now it's a new house, new process. This time around we are going to do a boiler in my new workshop. Easy access to unload wood, cleanup ash, maintenance, happy wife, and radiant floor heat in the workshop. The list goes on.....
Now just to figure it all out....
muncybob
Minister of Fire
The pro's outweighed the cons for me when looking at indoors or outdoors. Yes, the boiler in my basement does create a small clean up on the floor that I attend to weekly when doing my regular boiler clean up. After learning how to properly operate my boiler(yes, it took me some time and frustration) I can say I'll always be burning wood indoors. As much as an outdoor type of guy I am, there is a lot to be said for loading up the boiler in my slippers on a windy/snowing/freezing cold morning.
Hard to beat a Froling with an appropriately sized storage tank. With the Euro depressed and cheap oil, I expect there are good deals to be had.
Tennman
Minister of Fire
We were going to install an OWB until I found this site. Read about gasification boilers here. You'll see most gassers are of the IWB design, meaning they're not designed to be in the weather. Once you research and decide on the boiler, read the discussions here on IWBs in your house vs in an out building. Been many spirited discussions of the pros and cons of each approach. In general in the house is more efficient and convenient. In out building offers cleanest operations for the house since only hot water enters house. We have an allergic sensitive daughter and indoor isn't physically possible for us. There is no wrong side to this debate, just different priorities. Pick yours. Look at the boilers used by guys here for 5-10 years. You'll see a trend and happy users of 8-10 brands. Go slow, research, and plan for having a system by Fall 2016. Otherwise just trust an OWB dealer and risk getting ripped off. Seen it here often.
Peak,
I keep gravitating toward the Froling. I know there are other units that are cheaper, but I'm not looking for cheap. I prefer a unit that is of sound quality and will last. In the long run many things I have ever owned in life that were initially more expensive turned out being the most economical to own by outlasting that cheapy version that would have been replaced 2 or 3 times. Not saying the Froling is that, but it sounds like it's a quality unit.
I keep gravitating toward the Froling. I know there are other units that are cheaper, but I'm not looking for cheap. I prefer a unit that is of sound quality and will last. In the long run many things I have ever owned in life that were initially more expensive turned out being the most economical to own by outlasting that cheapy version that would have been replaced 2 or 3 times. Not saying the Froling is that, but it sounds like it's a quality unit.
Nofossil
Moderator Emeritus
Like MuncyBob says, there's a learning curve. Until I learned proper patience and discipline, I would sometimes open the loading door when the fire was still roaring - not a good move with any boiler, but especially not with a gasifier.
Once I got past that, it's really clean as far as soot and smoke. No indoor odors, and just a faint toasted nut aroma outdoors if the wind is just right.
With an indoor boiler, you do get dust and dirt from the wood, and some ash dust from cleaning. That stays nicely contained in my boiler room. For me, indoor is really nice.
Once I got past that, it's really clean as far as soot and smoke. No indoor odors, and just a faint toasted nut aroma outdoors if the wind is just right.
With an indoor boiler, you do get dust and dirt from the wood, and some ash dust from cleaning. That stays nicely contained in my boiler room. For me, indoor is really nice.
Tennman
Minister of Fire
RWF, To my knowledge never been a disappointed Froling owner/user here. In fact, Froling folks rarely post here which says a lot. But I don't have any first hand experience.
Bad LP
Minister of Fire
Tennman
Minister of Fire
Don't make the mistake we I made. You guys have owners/operators of these things relatively near you. Go visit operators to see first hand and ask what they like and don't like. Look around the boiler room for soot accumulation and see if you can live with it. If you saw my boiler barn (which is welcome to anyone) a fine grey dust is on everything. But I will emphasize, operating with storage is far cleaner than without because of when/how you reload. Don't just imagine what boiler Ops is like, go see one or two. And even better take your wife if you want to keep a warm and peaceful home.
Coal Reaper
Minister of Fire
soot with IWB is mostly a non-issue, especially for negative pressure burn chambers. if i remember i will take a picture of the sheetrock above mine, it is as white as the day i painted it almost 2 years ago. i can load my boiler without getting any smoke smell on myself or into the room. as nofossil commented, there is only the slight roasted nut smell when burning that is noticeable only when the wind is a particular way. it is not offensive in the least, i would even say it is a pleasant odor, def dont mind it. and it is only outside my outbuilding. neighbors OWBs i can smell creosote from hundreds of yards away.
dust, yes. some inevitably escapes during cleanings. my boiler is negative pressure so i keep the fan on while cleaning to minimize the dust.
maple and i have boilers by the same manufacture, slightly different models. his comments are spot on. and just like tennman, i too was going to go the OWB route before i found this place. no regrets!
the only other thing to mention is that the gassers do mostly require dry wood. i can measure my heat output very accurately and the difference between 20% and 25% MC is significant.
dust, yes. some inevitably escapes during cleanings. my boiler is negative pressure so i keep the fan on while cleaning to minimize the dust.
maple and i have boilers by the same manufacture, slightly different models. his comments are spot on. and just like tennman, i too was going to go the OWB route before i found this place. no regrets!
the only other thing to mention is that the gassers do mostly require dry wood. i can measure my heat output very accurately and the difference between 20% and 25% MC is significant.
The biggest issue that the OP has to consider is that modern IWBs are fairly complex systems that are optimized to reduce fuel use and air emissions, they have a learning curve and require planning in advance by buying and seasoning wood in advance. If someone doesn't want to put the time in to learn how to run an IWB, they are going to be disappointed. Someone new to wood may not like going direct to an IWB as few will have learned the lesson that there is no substitute for dry wood and about the only way to have dry wood to dry it themselves. If they try to shortcut the process and buy wood there is a high likelihood that they will be disappointed.
OWBs are basically designed around a loophole in the rules. They require far less hassle to run and can run wetter wood, they tend to be attractive to folks who want instant gratification. The trade off is that once installed they require far more wood and they impose long term air quality issues. There really is no learning curve with an OWB. Its an attractive impulse purchase and that's how many get sold.
OWBs are basically designed around a loophole in the rules. They require far less hassle to run and can run wetter wood, they tend to be attractive to folks who want instant gratification. The trade off is that once installed they require far more wood and they impose long term air quality issues. There really is no learning curve with an OWB. Its an attractive impulse purchase and that's how many get sold.
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