Non combustible alcove question

mol1jb · Jan 11, 2016

Hey all,

Busy dreaming up my install for later this year. I would like to install a wood stove in our house that currently has nothing, no masonry fireplace or heating appliance, so this install is starting from scratch.

My wife would like to go the ZC high efficiency fireplace route, but I don't care for the cost involved and would rather run a wood stove myself.

So the middle ground is my wife likes very much the stove in a fireplace look but as I said we have not masonry fireplace to work with. So in a sense I would have to design an alcove to look like a fireplace and set up the stove in that.

Not easily done however since very few manuals give specifications for non-combustible alcoves. Lopi and the other Travis Industries stoves are the only ones I can currently find that specify in their manual about non-combustible alcoves.

So here is the questions. To your knowledge are there other stove companies that specify alcove details for non-combustible alcoves? Also, are there people out there who have attempted an install like this? I would love to hear from you.

Thank you'
-Jacob

bholler · Jan 11, 2016

Well to start off how do you plan on building a non combustible alcove and we will go from there

Wood Duck · Jan 11, 2016

A non-combustible alcove would have to be built of brick or masonry. it will be heavy, so make sure your floor can hold it. It might be easier to convince your wife that she likes a stove, perhaps a nice soapstone stove.

mol1jb · Jan 11, 2016

bholler said:
Well to start off how do you plan on building a non combustible alcove and we will go from there

Well if I were to go with a Lopi stove the manual sites the following:

"Alcoves are classified as combustible or non-combustible. Non-combustible alcoves must have walls and a ceiling that are 3 1/2" (89mm) thick of a non-combustible material (brick, stone, or concrete - see Figure 9). This non-combustible material must be spaced and ventilated at least 1" (25mm) from all combustible materials (walls, ceiling, etc.) to allow air to move around the non-combustible walls and ceiling. All other alcoves are considered combustible. The clearances below must be met:"

It also gives specific clearances and minimums for the non-combustible alcoves

bholler · Jan 11, 2016

mol1jb said:
"Alcoves are classified as combustible or non-combustible. Non-combustible alcoves must have walls and a ceiling that are 3 1/2" (89mm) thick of a non-combustible material (brick, stone, or concrete - see Figure 9). This non-combustible material must be spaced and ventilated at least 1" (25mm) from all combustible materials (walls, ceiling, etc.) to allow air to move around the non-combustible walls and ceiling. All other alcoves are considered combustible. The clearances below must be met:"

Well that is not as thick as most would require for most it would need to be like a fireplace which needs to be 8". But it will still be allot of weight and would require a foundation to support it. I am also wondering how you would do the ceiling? Poured concrete maybe?

mol1jb · Jan 11, 2016

Wood Duck said:
A non-combustible alcove would have to be built of brick or masonry. it will be heavy, so make sure your floor can hold it. It might be easier to convince your wife that she likes a stove, perhaps a nice soapstone stove.

Yes I have thought about the increased weight that a non-combustible alcove would have. As far as a better looking stove, its not about appearance as much as the intrusion (both ascetically and functionally) of the stove pipe in the room.

mol1jb · Jan 11, 2016

bholler said:
Well that is not as thick as most would require for most it would need to be like a fireplace which needs to be 8". But it will still be allot of weight and would require a foundation to support it. I am also wondering how you would do the ceiling? Poured concrete maybe?

What about several layers of cement board + finish materal (like a neutral tile with a rough finish for example)

bholler · Jan 11, 2016

mol1jb said:
What about several layers of cement board + finish materal (like a neutral tile with a rough finish for example)

As long as it added up to 3.5" and was secured together with a noncombustible adhesive it should be fine for the lopi but you would need to chech for other stoves

Wood Duck · Jan 11, 2016

I understand the Lopi manual says 3.5 inches of non-combustible material, but I wonder why it doesn't instead specify a certain R- value (or is it K-value for this type of application)?

daleeper · Jan 11, 2016

Well I'm usually not this way, but put on your man-pants, and tell her you will be installing a proper wood stove. Anything else will be a compromise. You can make the hearth pretty with stonework or brick, or modern materials to please her. But if you are wanting heat, a stove is the only way to go, if she wants something to look at, then get a gas fireplace, and make it easy on yourself. Serious heat will come from a stove. A fireplace or an insert is a compromise that is not needed when starting from scratch as you are. An alcove will affect the heat movement in the house, and I would only consider the alcove if square footage was an issue. This is worth fighting for, in my opinion. Rant over.

bholler · Jan 11, 2016

daleeper said:
Well I'm usually not this way, but put on your man-pants, and tell her you will be installing a proper wood stove. Anything else will be a compromise. You can make the hearth pretty with stonework or brick, or modern materials to please her. But if you are wanting heat, a stove is the only way to go, if she wants something to look at, then get a gas fireplace, and make it easy on yourself. Serious heat will come from a stove. A fireplace or an insert is a compromise that is not needed when starting from scratch as you are. An alcove will affect the heat movement in the house, and I would only consider the alcove if square footage was an issue. This is worth fighting for, in my opinion. Rant over.

Well a good epa fireplace will crank out the heat just fine and the fact that many can be ducted is a big plus for some. An alcove will not affect heat output as long as it is done right. Yes that masonry will absorb allot of heat but it will be given back to the room as long as there is goon insulation behind it. Yes it is going to cast allot more than just a freestanding stove on a hearth but as far as performance goes it will be fine.

bholler · Jan 11, 2016

daleeper said:
Well I'm usually not this way, but put on your man-pants, and tell her you will be installing a proper wood stove.

That does not end well most of the time.

kennyp2339 · Jan 11, 2016

bholler said:
That does not end well most of the time.

Words of wisdom right there.

Babaganoosh · Jan 11, 2016

bholler said:
That does not end well most of the time.

I guess it depends on the situation and some factors. If the man isn't wearing the pants normally and then tries them on in a situation like this he's probably screwed. If he's normally wearing them it's not as big a deal.

To the OP, if you want a stove and don't want a blowup I'd try to limit her options on the stuff. Figure out what you want (and she'd live with) and present 3 options. Two of them being horrible ones and yours being the best. Tell her you did lots of research, keep running numbers past her until she tunes out, then guide her towards the right one.

A lot of times people tend to hyper focus on the small stuff. Once it's installed and cranking out heat she won't even worry about it anymore .

bholler · Jan 11, 2016

Babaganoosh said:
I guess it depends on the situation and some factors. If the man isn't wearing the pants normally and then tries them on in a situation like this he's probably screwed. If he's normally wearing them it's not as big a deal.

I don't know i have found that when you tell people how it is going to be you generally don't get the best results. That goes for men or women.

kennyp2339 · Jan 11, 2016

Hmmm.. Trickery maybe needed mew ha ha Ha.. Pull up some pictures of freestanding units that have nice stone veneers with great looking hearths. Ask her specifically about the stone work and maybe she'll fall in love with that type of free standing unit bailing you out of all that extra work

mol1jb · Jan 11, 2016

daleeper said:
Well I'm usually not this way, but put on your man-pants, and tell her you will be installing a proper wood stove.

Ha! I am currently happily married (most of the time) and would like to keep it that way. I am still exploring options but I do want to stick with a wood stove install.

mol1jb · Jan 11, 2016

Babaganoosh said:
A lot of times people tend to hyper focus on the small stuff. Once it's installed and cranking out heat she won't even worry about it anymore .

I know this will be the end result of our install. Just gotta get to that point. Once the main level is 75*+ my wife wont care one bit about how or where the stove ended up

daleeper · Jan 11, 2016

bholler said:
Well a good epa fireplace will crank out the heat just fine and the fact that many can be ducted is a big plus for some. An alcove will not affect heat output as long as it is done right. Yes that masonry will absorb allot of heat but it will be given back to the room as long as there is goon insulation behind it. Yes it is going to cast allot more than just a freestanding stove on a hearth but as far as performance goes it will be fine.

Yes, a good epa fireplace will crank out heat, but how long a lifespan will they have. I have not seen one yet that looks as well built as a stove (firebox). I would also agree that the idea of ducting that heat looks promising, but many of the posts I read here on Hearth.com point out that many times they do not work as promised. Thus the comment about it being a compromise. I will still say that heat will not move away from a stove in an alcove like it will from one on an open hearth, thus a compromise.

I also will say there are times in life to take a stand, and times to let things go. I finally had to point out that I was the one cutting, splitting, stacking, moving the firewood, and loading the stove. I was going to get the stove I wanted, and I waited till I found the stove that I wanted and bought it even though she didn't think we needed it (a replacement for a pre-epa stove). She enjoys the heat from it.

I will not make any more comments about the above. I'm sure the OP knows which battles to choose. In my house, this was one worth fighting, and there were compromises made along the way.

bholler · Jan 11, 2016

daleeper said:
Yes, a good epa fireplace will crank out heat, but how long a lifespan will they have. I have not seen one yet that looks as well built as a stove (firebox).

Most of them i have worked with are built as well as most epa stoves. We don't do a ton of them but we have some out 10 to 15 years now with no major issues.

daleeper said:
I would also agree that the idea of ducting that heat looks promising, but many of the posts I read here on Hearth.com point out that many times they do not work as promised.

And if you read here there are also complaints about just about every stove on the market not working as promised it is usually installer or operator error.

daleeper said:
I will still say that heat will not move away from a stove in an alcove like it will from one on an open hearth, thus a compromise.

No it wont move the same way. the heat will be tempered some but that does not mean you are loosing heat or that one is better than another they will just heat differently and the op needs to make the decision which will work better.

daleeper said:
I will not make any more comments about the above. I'm sure the OP knows which battles to choose. In my house, this was one worth fighting, and there were compromises made along the way.

He made the compromise of a stove in an alcove over a zc That obviously is what they thought was best for them.

begreen · Jan 11, 2016

To reduce weight the alcove could be be framed with metal studs and sheathed with cement board like Durock NexGen. That is entirely non-combustible. However, one needs to pay attention to the ceiling requirement too. Most stove require a 84" ceiling height. With some planning you may not need a non-combustible alcove as long as clearances are honored or exceeded.

Draw up a sketch of the design rough dimensions and post a picture here so that we can see what you want to create. A shot of the current location would also be useful.

bholler · Jan 12, 2016

begreen said:
To reduce weight the alcove could be be framed with metal studs and sheathed with cement board like Durock NexGen. That is entirely non-combustible. However, one needs to pay attention to the ceiling requirement too. Most stove require a 84" ceiling height. With some planning you may not need a non-combustible alcove as long as clearances are honored or exceeded.

Draw up a sketch of the design rough dimensions and post a picture here so that we can see what you want to create. A shot of the current location would also be useful.

Yes but what clearances would then be required from that framing? cement board and metal studs are not the same thing as solid masonry with an air gap

mol1jb · Jan 12, 2016

Ok here is my artistic drawing. I will explain best I can. The basic idea is we want to replicate the look of a wood stove in a fireplace for both function and ascetics. This way we can have a mantle and use the space above the stove for pictures or tv or whatever.

A ZC epa fireplace would probably be easier to accomplish this but I don't want to spend the higher cost or have a fan running constantly to disperse heat. I have burned with epa wood stoves before and I feel its the best way to go.

So in the picture the ceiling of the non combustible alcove is required by Lopi I believe 12" above the stove per the manual. Rear and side clearances would also be per the manual required. Metal framing is definitely the way to go in this application. After that it will be a combination of cement board + finish material to equal 3.5 in non combustible ceiling and walls of the alcove. The mantle would be a the required height of the manual or heat shielded if lowered.

The living room is the point of installation. It is really the only room on the main level of our 1200 sqft ranch that has enough space to install a wood stove. The room is 13x20 so we would be using the wall that is 13' wide. Another aspect that comes into play with this install is that the low pitch of our roof equates to a shorter chimney and a straight up run is the only way I really want to install to protect the stove drafting well.

Non combustible alcove question

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