I am not an electrician by any means so maybe somebody can help me out. The wife called me and said she touched the top of the Napoleon insert that we have and she got zapped pretty good. she unplugged it but is scared to touch anything over there now. Anyway I would assume that it must be fan as that is the only thing that is electric on it correct? I guess I will have to get an electrician to take a look at it.
wife got shocked by wood insert
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dmmcd
New Member
I get a good static zap just about any time I touch the insert. The air is dry. But there is a big difference between static discharge and an electrical short. The blower is the only electric on the insert. You can check the wires to see if any are loose or if insulation is rubbed off anywhere. But if you are concerned, definitely have an electrician take a look.
jetsam
Minister of Fire
I'd run a 3 prong extension cord over to it. Put your multimeter on AC voltage, plug the stove in to its usual outlet, and put one probe in the ground of the extension cord (that's the round hole), and the other on the body of the stove. Don't touch the stove in case it has 120v on it.
If the meter doesn't read zero volts, you have two issues:
1) The fan kit's hot is leaking to the body of the stove
2) The body of the stove is not grounded
Shouldn't be hard to sort out once you figure out what's going on.
I do not know if the body of wood stoves is customarily bonded to ground, but it seems like it really should be- and I'm willing to bet that this would be required for UL certification if the stove comes with a fan kit (as opposed to the fan kit being an add-on).
If the meter doesn't read zero volts, you have two issues:
1) The fan kit's hot is leaking to the body of the stove
2) The body of the stove is not grounded
Shouldn't be hard to sort out once you figure out what's going on.
I do not know if the body of wood stoves is customarily bonded to ground, but it seems like it really should be- and I'm willing to bet that this would be required for UL certification if the stove comes with a fan kit (as opposed to the fan kit being an add-on).
she said it was not a static shock, almost dropped her to the ground. I will take a meter home and try to see what is going on. we have had this thing for about 10 years with no problems.
semipro
Minister of Fire
So what's the problem? You're worried she won't load the stove anymore? 
I 2nd other comments about a pinched or abraded wire.
I 2nd other comments about a pinched or abraded wire.
You (She) would be more likely to feel a Static shock than 120v, Unless you are wet, you can barely feel 120v, and if you aren't grounded you probably won't feel it at all. If you have a voltmeter, you could read between the stove shell and the ground wire in an outlet, or a water pipe. If you do this try with the fan both off and on.
jetsam
Minister of Fire
Maybe I'm just conductive, but I can feel 120v just fine every time I latch onto it, which has been plenty of times over the years.
For the curious, it feels to me like a strong 60Hz vibration localized where the current is entering your body and spreading out to the exit point, though I always seem to feel it in my head too. It kind of hurts and is extremely attention-getting. If you are slow getting off of the contact point, it throbs and buzzes and is pretty unpleasant. "Shocking" is a good word for it, actually.
If you carelessly give it a good path to ground that goes through your necessary bits (one hand on the breaker box, one hand on the hot wire, for example), even low voltages can kill you. As current is a function of voltage and resistance, lowering your resistance makes it much more dangerous, and raising it makes it much less dangerous. The reason I usually experience shocks as mildly painful is that I do not set myself up to be a good path to ground when playing with hot wires (thick rubber soles, only one hand near the voltage, no other bits touching grounds or neutrals).
Someone with half a brain would set themselves up to not be working on hot wires in the first place, but I learned this stuff on 540v 3-phase systems with 50KV klystrons, so I tend to not regard 120v as "real" voltage, though it assuredly is.
For the curious, it feels to me like a strong 60Hz vibration localized where the current is entering your body and spreading out to the exit point, though I always seem to feel it in my head too. It kind of hurts and is extremely attention-getting. If you are slow getting off of the contact point, it throbs and buzzes and is pretty unpleasant. "Shocking" is a good word for it, actually.
If you carelessly give it a good path to ground that goes through your necessary bits (one hand on the breaker box, one hand on the hot wire, for example), even low voltages can kill you. As current is a function of voltage and resistance, lowering your resistance makes it much more dangerous, and raising it makes it much less dangerous. The reason I usually experience shocks as mildly painful is that I do not set myself up to be a good path to ground when playing with hot wires (thick rubber soles, only one hand near the voltage, no other bits touching grounds or neutrals).
Someone with half a brain would set themselves up to not be working on hot wires in the first place, but I learned this stuff on 540v 3-phase systems with 50KV klystrons, so I tend to not regard 120v as "real" voltage, though it assuredly is.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Klystrons? We must be in a similar line of work.Someone with half a brain would set themselves up to not be working on hot wires in the first place, but I learned this stuff on 540v 3-phase systems with 50KV klystrons, so I tend to not regard 120v as "real" voltage, though it assuredly is.
rombi's wife sounds like mine.
I don't even mind hits off 120V household, that much. It's the 2 kV stuff that really ruins your afternoon.
Klystrons? We must be in a similar line of work.
rombi's wife sounds like mine.
You and jetsam probably know that you havn't really been shocked until you spend the rest of the day with a copper taste in your mouth.
jetsam
Minister of Fire
Klystrons? We must be in a similar line of work.
rombi's wife sounds like mine.
I was a combat comm/wideband guy in the Air Force many years ago. If you've ever seen a photo of our armed forces in a place they shouldn't be with big-ass parabolic antennas pointing at odd angles, that may have been us doing tropospheric microwave comms (those were the vans with the big scary klystrons).
I've never had a 2kv zap, but I have had 12% of that, and it fairly rattled my teeth, so I will be looking for the molybdenum tools if anyone asks me to go poking around with live wires in that range!
(As a side note, I always wondered about the 50KV claim on those klystrons, but we had no way to measure that kind of voltage, so our troubleshooting tended to be of the "try to cook a hotdog in front of the antenna and swap out the HVPS if it doesn't work" variety, and I never got to check it for myself.)
(As a side note to the side note, those commo vans were designed by Raytheon geniuses with slide rules, and if they ever go out of service, they should be in a museum. Imagine designing a complex bit of electronics that was still in use 65 years later, after the whole field of electronics had changed beyond recognition. It's like the SR-71 of commo gear.
semipro
Minister of Fire
I got hit hard by a high energy ignition system in a car once - spent the rest of the day deaf in one ear.
That was scary.
I think a lot how much it hurts and how much damage it does has to do with the route it takes through your body. In my case it went from hand to hand through my torso.
That was scary.
I think a lot how much it hurts and how much damage it does has to do with the route it takes through your body. In my case it went from hand to hand through my torso.
Just did a quick check on our Nap 1450 and with the blower on or off, the top and steel outer shell is connected to the plug ground. So, it's most likley that if you get a 120V shock (not static, you've got something putting voltage onto the ground. I'd start with the thermistor, which is touching the steel shell and would be my first guess.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Insert could be grounded, but the combination of a pinched hot wire and an incorrectly wired house receptacle could still result in voltage on the insert. Best to check as jetsam outlined in post #4.
Yeah, it's possible, due to the high gap impedance of a klystron. You're still talking megawatts of power during the on-time, so I'd assume it's a short-duty-cycle pulsed application, and efficiency probably only 50% efficiency. Size your generator, accordingly.(As a side note, I always wondered about the 50KV claim on those klystrons, but we had no way to measure that kind of voltage, so our troubleshooting tended to be of the "try to cook a hotdog in front of the antenna and swap out the HVPS if it doesn't work" variety, and I never got to check it for myself.)
(As a side note to the side note, those commo vans were designed by Raytheon geniuses with slide rules, and if they ever go out of service, they should be in a museum. Imagine designing a complex bit of electronics that was still in use 65 years later, after the whole field of electronics had changed beyond recognition. It's like the SR-71 of commo gear.
I used to work for Raytheon, debugging modeling/simulator problems with their phased-array radars. Opposite end of the power and frequency spectrum from what you were doing, at that time.
jetsam
Minister of Fire
Yeah, it's possible, due to the high gap impedance of a klystron. You're still talking megawatts of power during the on-time, so I'd assume it's a short-duty-cycle pulsed application, and efficiency probably only 50% efficiency. Size your generator, accordingly.
I used to work for Raytheon, debugging modeling/simulator problems with their phased-array radars. Opposite end of the power and frequency spectrum from what you were doing, at that time.
That is really cool!
Improbably, I actually just found the service manual for that thing on Google Books (!). Our "50kV" was in fact around 8 kV. I guess 50 just sounded scarier.
(Also, if you wondered if anyone really ever read the whole field manual, there's your answer.)
semipro
Minister of Fire
I thought it was the current (amperage) that killed not the voltage. The voltage potential just gets things going right?
A Van de Graff generator is very high in voltage but harmless.
A Van de Graff generator is very high in voltage but harmless.
phatdonkey
Member
Maybe I'm just conductive, but I can feel 120v just fine every time I latch onto it, which has been plenty of times over the years.
For the curious, it feels to me like a strong 60Hz vibration localized where the current is entering your body and spreading out to the exit point, though I always seem to feel it in my head too. It kind of hurts and is extremely attention-getting. If you are slow getting off of the contact point, it throbs and buzzes and is pretty unpleasant. "Shocking" is a good word for it, actually.
If you carelessly give it a good path to ground that goes through your necessary bits (one hand on the breaker box, one hand on the hot wire, for example), even low voltages can kill you. As current is a function of voltage and resistance, lowering your resistance makes it much more dangerous, and raising it makes it much less dangerous. The reason I usually experience shocks as mildly painful is that I do not set myself up to be a good path to ground when playing with hot wires (thick rubber soles, only one hand near the voltage, no other bits touching grounds or neutrals).
Someone with half a brain would set themselves up to not be working on hot wires in the first place, but I learned this stuff on 540v 3-phase systems with 50KV klystrons, so I tend to not regard 120v as "real" voltage, though it assuredly is.
Klystrons.....Navy guy? I worked on the SPS-49 radar Klystrons in the Navy.
Just read further into your following posts. Air Force. I see now.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
You've got the right idea. The effects on the body are measured in terms of sustained current, but of course Ohms Law (V = I*R) tells us that you can't see sustained current without sustained voltage. What's missing from this is that you can't sustain voltage without sufficient charge, according to Q = C*V.
So, the Van der Graff has voltage, but based on your assertion that it's harmless, it must have very low capacitance. As soon as you touch it, the limited charge is dissipated (fleeting high current), and the voltage drops. When the voltage drops, so does the current, and the danger to your body.
Fibrilation is interesting, as there must be sufficient charge to maintain current for some fraction of a heartbeat. I don't really understand the details of this, as I'm not on the medical side of the business. When I say "sustained current" above, this may mean milliseconds, whereas some high-voltage systems can dissipate their charge in microseconds or nanoseconds.
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For an entertaining video on electrical shock, check out The Pain of Electricity on YouTube.
Most likely the hot wire has rubbed or is pinched and making contact with the stove.
Most likely the hot wire has rubbed or is pinched and making contact with the stove.
???
Rearscreen
Minister of Fire
Next time you do laundry or cooking rub your socks real hard on the rug and touch the appliance then tell your wife "I ain't going anywhere near that thing!"
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