if you could not burn wood or pellets what fuel source for boiler?

rombi said:

just asking because I might replace the wood boiler with something that doesn't consume all my free time. heating 3000 square feet. Actually the only part that needs to be water heat is 1000 sq feet.

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I would suggest a high efficiency condensing gas boiler. Look for one that uses a Outdoor Reset and allows you to adjust the heat curve (these are typically of European design). Triangle Tube is an example, not sure what else is out there in the marketplace.

rombi said:

just asking because I might replace the wood boiler with something that doesn't consume all my free time. heating 3000 square feet. Actually the only part that needs to be water heat is 1000 sq feet.

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This depends on what fuel is available to you and at what costs. Do you have natural gas piped to your home? If so, it is usually your cheapest and easiest way to get btus.

Propane gas is significantly more expensive and in my area, electricity is cheaper!

Even if you kept the wood boiler as a primary and added an automated style boiler for when you lack free time, you would get the benefit of both.

Highbeam said:

This depends on what fuel is available to you and at what costs. Do you have natural gas piped to your home? If so, it is usually your cheapest and easiest way to get btus.

Propane gas is significantly more expensive and in my area, electricity is cheaper!

Even if you kept the wood boiler as a primary and added an automated style boiler for when you lack free time, you would get the benefit of both.

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Very good point, it does depend on availability. I like the gas option (even if it is propane option) because you have a choice of supplier if it propane and cheap if it is natural gas - I have been watching my electric bill climb regularly. I did install solar but I believe it might be cost prohibitive to install enough solar to heat. Most other fuel types involve work and have the potential for very volatile pricing.

I have wood with a tied in propane system, makes it very easy to burn when you want and just let the gas kick in whenever you don't feel like starting a fire.

JohnDolz said:

I have wood with a tied in propane system, makes it very easy to burn when you want and just let the gas kick in whenever you don't feel like starting a fire.

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Not just when you don't feel like burning but also when you are sick, run out of wood, are away on vacation, wood burner breaks down, local government bans burning, etc. We all should have a backup automatic heat source.

If I had NG at the house, I admit that I'd likely burn a lot less. Another option is the super low temp minisplit heat pumps now available that make full output down to zero degrees. CT electric rates are high but heat pumps are multiples cheaper to run than resistance electric.

Highbeam said:

Not just when you don't feel like burning but also when you are sick, run out of wood, are away on vacation, wood burner breaks down, local government bans burning, etc. We all should have a backup automatic heat source.

If I had NG at the house, I admit that I'd likely burn a lot less. Another option is the super low temp minisplit heat pumps now available that make full output down to zero degrees. CT electric rates are high but heat pumps are multiples cheaper to run than resistance electric.

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I have an addition over my garage (my office where I spend most of my time) that was designed terribly from both a heating and cooling perspective. In the last 5 years I have installed central air (house did not have any), a propane boiler with 1000 gal tank (to justify my whole house generator) and my gasification system - I am just taking a breath before the mini-split goes in.

You may not have the space, but we left the wood boiler in place and added a pellet for the same reason. We have a lifetime of wood but not always the processing/tending time. Now burn both and loving it. Propane used during shoulder season but probably that will be replaced by pellets since it's so painless.

rombi said:

sorry, no NG at our place so it would have to be electric or propane. I have in floor (concrete) heat in the part that has to be water.
can you heat in floor with an on demand water heater?

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I'm pretty sure that the Triangle Tube (and I imagine others) have the ability to work with 2 heat curves plus a DHW. If I knew how my propane was actually designed to work and had it been working that way, I may never have installed a wood boiler. Learning how to leverage my woodboiler's abilities is what taught me about heat curves and sent me to the manuals for my propane boiler (I previously know nothing about heating, my plumber recommended the boiler, installed it to run a a fixed firing temp and off I went....).

A good coal stoker is another option, depending on where you are.

rombi said:

sorry, no NG at our place so it would have to be electric or propane. I have in floor (concrete) heat in the part that has to be water.
can you heat in floor with an on demand water heater?

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Yes. Modern boilers look just like the on-demand water heater you are envisioning. They are small, on the wall, and thermostat controlled. Often water heaters are dual rated as a boiler. Some folks just use a cheap on demand water heater vs. spending big bucks on a real boiler.

I've pretty much decided to stop burning wood. If I stop putting up wood now I'll have about enough left for 4 more years. That will take me up close to age 80. I am just shy of stage 4 kidney disease and have a heart valve problem. In the last month I have attended the burials of two of my friends who appeared to have been in better health than me. My wife will need a heat source much more dependable than the old peerless now in place.
I've been seriously thinking that I would like to install a Polaris LP unit in the next few months and if I make it to the end of my wood supply I will then switch over. If I don't make it the unit will be installed and ready for connections. I wouldn't bother combining it with the wood boiler since I want the simplest plumbing possible.

I didn't think I'd ever say this again, but the way things have gone the last few months, I would now at least consider oil.

maple1 said:

I didn't think I'd ever say this again, but the way things have gone the last few months, I would now at least consider oil.

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http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=$hoil

The low ambient air to water heat pumps are getting much better. If you have and like hydronic heat, and electric is reasonable the air to waters are claiming 2.4 COP down to 0 ambient.

With the right heat emitters you could heat and cool hydronically via a HP.

The mini spits are very efficient also and more, nicer, options for terminal units are available instead of just the high wall mount types.

As PV prices continue to drop, some of the electric load could be offset with PV.

Highbeam said:

Yes. Modern boilers look just like the on-demand water heater you are envisioning. They are small, on the wall, and thermostat controlled. Often water heaters are dual rated as a boiler. Some folks just use a cheap on demand water heater vs. spending big bucks on a real boiler.

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I would highly discourage tankless heaters as a hydronic source. They are designed for large delta T, very low flow applications, just opposite of what you want in a hydronic heat source. Rarely can you pump them enough to get full output modulation. Save up and get a real mod con, built, listed, and warrantied for heating.

Bob Rohr said:

I would highly discourage tankless heaters as a hydronic source. They are designed for large delta T, very low flow applications, just opposite of what you want in a hydronic heat source. Rarely can you pump them enough to get full output modulation. Save up and get a real mod con, built, listed, and warrantied for heating.

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Yes, a real boiler is better. Some water heaters are rated as both.

rombi said:

I might replace the wood boiler with something that doesn't consume all my free time. heating 3000 square feet. Actually the only part that needs to be water heat is 1000 sq feet.

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I too ask myself this question, although I think that wood heating does not need to "consume all my free time." We have a free-standing wood stove in our 1500 sq ft main level house with 1500 sq ft walkout lower level which is the primary heat source (electric baseboard alternative) and a 1500 sq ft shop with a Tarm gasification boiler +1000 gal water storage for in-floor as the primary heat source (5000 watt electric space heater backup).

My approach focuses on 1) what are the most difficult things about wood heat, 2) what would make that easier and more manageable, 3) what would be economical alternatives, 4) what could anyone operate with confidence and safety?

Since for 26 years we have heated with wood, and I have cut all the trees, bucked all the logs, split all the rounds, hauled and stacked the splits, and then moved the splits close to the stove/boiler locations (about 8 total cords/year are burned), I agree it does take a lot of time, as well as presenting physical challenges and safety concerns.

The solutions: a) I don't need to do the harvesting of trees, which is the most dangerous part of burning with wood. There are loggers around who would be more than willing to sell semi-loads of 8 foot logs, species of my choice, and unload them for my splitting and all the rest. This would save lots of time and labor. b) Our area has a good supply of firewood suppliers, who also will c/s/s delivered firewood to specification. Deep Portage purchases about 100 cords/year under this scenario. That would be another major time and physical effort saver. c) Moving wood close to stove/boiler locations is not a major effort. At the same time this only becomes a "burden" during the coldest part of winter when lots of wood is burned, probably just during part of December into mid-February. It is in the "hassel" category for the rest and longest part of the heating season. The "hassel" part, if I wanted to eliminate that, could be handled with a mini-split (thinking +20F and above temperatures) - efficient and idiot proof. The burden part could be handled in my area with electric or LP. Currently competitive with each other in price. Even though the shop has in-floor hydronic, an air space heater would do the job.

I replaced baseboard electric in my house with a propane modcon boiler and purchased a wood boiler. Turned out I significantly overestimated my propane use. I sold the wood boiler because I don't have forested property, wood in the area is expensive to purchase or cut, and because I have four young kids.

I heated with wood full time in our previous house and miss the firelight and basking in the warmth of the stove, but I could cut good ash on my own property two hundred feet from the back door at my convenience.

All that to say that I'm happy with propane at the moment.

arbutus said:

I replaced baseboard electric in my house with a propane modcon boiler and purchased a wood boiler. Turned out I significantly overestimated my propane use. I sold the wood boiler because I don't have forested property, wood in the area is expensive to purchase or cut, and because I have four young kids.

I heated with wood full time in our previous house and miss the firelight and basking in the warmth of the stove, but I could cut good ash on my own property two hundred feet from the back door at my convenience.

All that to say that I'm happy with propane at the moment.

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Just curious, are you running your modcon off of an outdoor reset? If so did/do you have any issues with very short firing cycles?

rombi said:

just asking because I might replace the wood boiler with something that doesn't consume all my free time. heating 3000 square feet. t.

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Thats why im a part time burner,the last thing i need is a second job. I heat 3000 Sq ft cheaply and effectively with a coal boiler. The wood stove is for when i get the urge and for backup emergency heat that doesnt require power or when the boiler is down for maintenance. I also like the fire show that only a wood stove or insert can deliver.
As soon as it gets more like a job than a hobby it lose some of its luster.

JohnDolz said:

Just curious, are you running your modcon off of an outdoor reset? If so did/do you have any issues with very short firing cycles?

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Yes it is on outdoor reset. I think we would have problems if we left it on full time - outdoor reset low temperature only goes down to 50, and we don't need heat until 35 to 45 outdoor depending on sunlight and wind. Wife and four kids home during the day, lights, oven/stove, etc provide a lot of supplemental heat on our 800 sq foot first floor. We turn it off in the morning spring and fall.

arbutus said:

Yes it is on outdoor reset. I think we would have problems if we left it on full time - outdoor reset low temperature only goes down to 50, and we don't need heat until 35 to 45 outdoor depending on sunlight and wind. Wife and four kids home during the day, lights, oven/stove, etc provide a lot of supplemental heat on our 800 sq foot first floor. We turn it off in the morning spring and fall.

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Thanks. My mod/con allows me to go in (via the Installer menu) and change the "end points" of the heat curve, I have mine set down to -30F. I basically duplicated the heat curve that is used on my thermal storage. In reading and talking with the manufacturer of the mod/con I learned that it really doesn't condense unless the return water is under 130F. If I went with the factory settings it probably would have only been condensing less than 20% of the winter (condensing and firing for low water temp is where you get all the efficiencies out of a mod/con). When I did this I was firing every minute or so because my return temp was so close to my supply temp, I was able to control it via a setting that controls minimum time between firings. I am just trying to learn who else had the same problem and how they addressed it. Thanks for sharing your info!

I've never seen an instant on water heater work well, or for long in a heating application. They are not designed for that task despite what some manufacturers claim. Just don't do it.

A combi type boiler that also does instant water heating is not the same as an instant water heater. They are boilers with additional parts that will heat DHW.

Natural Gas! If only I had the option..
And we lease land for it to travel through our town..