I am considering buying my first home in Southern New Hampshire a 1,500 sq ft two story cape with a full basement that has a foundation already poured for a masonary chimny that was never completed. I would like to put in a three flue exterior chimeny on the foundation that has one flue for the wood burning stove, one for a fireplce in the living room above and a fire place in the master bedroom on the second floor. Question one, am I looking at a crazy amount of money to put this masonay chimney in and is there a more cost effective option. Question 2, Will a modern air tight stove in the basement of this house heat through convection too the second floor? Or will I have to put a large grate on the first floor above the stove to get it to heat the rest of the house? Question 3, The house has a propane fired FHW system now with three zones for heat. How does propane cost for heating compare with oil? Sorry for all the questions but I am REAL excited about this project and want to do it RIGHT!
Wood stove in basement of two story Cape in New Hampshire?
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jpl1nh
Minister of Fire
I suspect the chimney will be expensive but it would seem to me that putting in three flues at once would not be all that much more expensive than a masonary chimney with just one flue. Do the chimney right, regardless of the stoves or inserts you choose, it is the key to long term wood burning sucess and will add value to your home that will stay with the house too. I think propane is comparable to fuel oil for home heating in cost IMHO. I use propane at my commercial buildings and oil at home. They both are now way too expensive!! I would put a small stove in the basement just to keep the basement warm and if you get some supplemental for the rest of the house, great, but make sure to insulate the basement. I'd put either an insert or a free standing stove as my main heat source for the house on the first floor. The fireplace in the bedroom for romance only, do't expect much other heat from it. Your less expensive chimney options would be a pellet stove in the basement and a wood stove or insert if you already have a fireplace on the main floor with pipe instead of masonary.
I can appreciate trying to do things right. However, putting the chimney on the exterior of the house is strike one. Look around at the old homes in your area and you will see that chimneys designed for heating are on the interior of the house. That way the mass of the masonry stays warm. There are several benefits to this approach. A warmer chimney is going to draft much better. A warm chimney will have much less problem with creosote formation. And with an interior chimney the masonry mass releases the heat to the interior of the house as it cools down. If the intent is to enjoy wood burning and to use it regularly, stick with an interior flue system.
Also, there are some strong code restrictions on wood fires in bedrooms. In general they are not allowed.
Check out the heating calculator on this site and run the numbers for your local area fuel options. In our area, propane is an expensive fuel. Locally it is the most expensive fuel one can heat with. Oil has more energy and often costs less per btu. For consideration, insulation, caulking and good windows are often the best investment one can make.
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/fuel_cost_comparison_calculator/
Also, there are some strong code restrictions on wood fires in bedrooms. In general they are not allowed.
Check out the heating calculator on this site and run the numbers for your local area fuel options. In our area, propane is an expensive fuel. Locally it is the most expensive fuel one can heat with. Oil has more energy and often costs less per btu. For consideration, insulation, caulking and good windows are often the best investment one can make.
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/fuel_cost_comparison_calculator/
jpl1nh
Minister of Fire
Be Green has a really good point about the chimney. Another alternative then is small pellet stove in the basment and free standing wood stove in the interior of the house with metal chimney through the roof. By the way, I would not put my main wood stove in the basment because it's too hard to get the heat up into the rest of the house.
babalu87
New Member
jpl1nh said:
Plus, its a pain in the ass loading/futzing around with it
Plus, your wasting heat/wood the basement isnt insulated
Plus, as you become more of a pyro you have to sit by the wrokbench to look at the fire
jpl1nh
Minister of Fire
I had an Englander pellet stove in the basement of my last home, which was a 1,000 sf. split level ranch. I used the larger stove at Home Depot (1500 sf?). Anyhoo, I used about 4 tons of pellets for the year, Kept the house at 70 -74 degrees, did not have to put in a masonry chimney, and never had the oil man out. :cheese: A larger pellet stove may be a good option!
OK, so from what I am hearing I would be better/ cheaper to put in a wood or steel framed chimney system with the foundation as the suport and have it insulated inside around the metal flues. I would not be able to but ina interior masonry chimney since the house is already built and has the floor plan I like. The basement would be finished I would insulate it before I put a stove down there. I am hearing that I would be better off to just put a air tight wood burning insert on the first floor. I guess if I put at least two flues through the chimney I could still run a pellet stove in the basement.
cmonSTART
Minister of Fire
with the pellet stove there is no need for "chimney", just a 4" pellet venting kit to go through the outside wall. very easy to install, and cheap compared to a regular chimney.
dsil said:
Yes the horizontal vent, but my propane furnace does the same thing right near the entrance of the house and makes quite a racket when it kicks on to create positive ventilation for the boiler, and blows hot air on people entering or exiting the house! I think a chimney of any sort would preferable and more "New England". I don't like the look of a cape with no chimney of any type it looks like the cookie cutter next door!
Moderator said I should run this on my own post so, here goes again. I am thinking could put a metal stud framed chimney with three flues going from the basement foundation for the chimney that NEVER was when they built the house in '91 to the above roof line of the two story cape. Could I just use regular foil faced insulation inside the metal stud framed structure. I could stucco it, for the look of the masonry chimney without the cost. I was thinking about using a sawzall to take the exterior plywood, and insulation out from between the house and the flue framing. I would do this to help the house warm the flue and the flue in turn warm the house. Does this sound good? Or should I leave the chimney structure as separate from the house as possible.
Insulating the chimney chase will help a lot. If these are all metal flues, I'm not sure I would try to recoup heat into the house. The main objective is to keep the flue gases hot to reduce creosote condensation and poor draft.
OK, so just keep the insulation around the metal flues and don't bother with removing the insulation the the house side of the chimney framing. I guess i will only need to frame three sides for two stories. Then box in the four when I GET ABOVE ROOF LINE. How far above roof line should I go in building the stack. Should I metal flash the cap or concrete flaunching? I guess caps are a good idea as well.
webbie
Seasoned Moderator
Still not clear what type of chimneys are going in this???
Normal construction would call for insulating the house wall, NOT the chimney chase (this assumes only chimneys in them, not the actual fireplaces).....although you could slightly insulate the chimney case with insulated sheathing, etc.- no reason to use heat to keep the chimney chase warm. If it is sealed and slightly insulated and also has insulated pipe running up through it, you should be OK.
I don't really like the idea (or think it will work) for the flues to heat the house and opposite - those three exposed sides will create a lot more heat loss than the flues can counteract - so I would just keep the chase separate.
BUT, this advice and thread really means nothing unless we 100% know what type of fireplaces you are putting in and whether they extend into the chase. If you fireplace extend into the chase, then they are by definition usually part of the house envelope and therefore need to be insulated around - at least up until a certain height (a fire stop or ceiling in the chase)....
Sounds like you have to do some thinking and shopping for the appliances first before making final decisions about this chase.
Normal construction would call for insulating the house wall, NOT the chimney chase (this assumes only chimneys in them, not the actual fireplaces).....although you could slightly insulate the chimney case with insulated sheathing, etc.- no reason to use heat to keep the chimney chase warm. If it is sealed and slightly insulated and also has insulated pipe running up through it, you should be OK.
I don't really like the idea (or think it will work) for the flues to heat the house and opposite - those three exposed sides will create a lot more heat loss than the flues can counteract - so I would just keep the chase separate.
BUT, this advice and thread really means nothing unless we 100% know what type of fireplaces you are putting in and whether they extend into the chase. If you fireplace extend into the chase, then they are by definition usually part of the house envelope and therefore need to be insulated around - at least up until a certain height (a fire stop or ceiling in the chase)....
Sounds like you have to do some thinking and shopping for the appliances first before making final decisions about this chase.
Shortlid.
I have a 1500sf cape in RI. I placed the stove in the basement and ran a ss chimney up the side of my house 25' in length. I would suggest insulating the ss pipe if you choose this method. I cut through the foundation and ran the ss pipe through the basement wall. The stove in the basement has been heating the house for 3 months now. I have no complaints. Over the past 2 months temps have been cold dropping down to 15 degrees. Basement is 90, 1st floor 78-80, 2nd floor 65-68 degrees using an Englander 30ncl. I knew the consequences for placing the stove in the basement for example difficulty pushing the warm air up stairs but I chose to try it anyway. I do not use any fans to circulate the air and the house remains warm. I may attempt to place a switch on my forced hot air furnace fan to circulate some air in the future. If you do place the stove in the basement make sure you insulate this area. I use the basement area as a second family room.
I have a 1500sf cape in RI. I placed the stove in the basement and ran a ss chimney up the side of my house 25' in length. I would suggest insulating the ss pipe if you choose this method. I cut through the foundation and ran the ss pipe through the basement wall. The stove in the basement has been heating the house for 3 months now. I have no complaints. Over the past 2 months temps have been cold dropping down to 15 degrees. Basement is 90, 1st floor 78-80, 2nd floor 65-68 degrees using an Englander 30ncl. I knew the consequences for placing the stove in the basement for example difficulty pushing the warm air up stairs but I chose to try it anyway. I do not use any fans to circulate the air and the house remains warm. I may attempt to place a switch on my forced hot air furnace fan to circulate some air in the future. If you do place the stove in the basement make sure you insulate this area. I use the basement area as a second family room.
Craig I think the confusion is that in the original post he was considering doing this all with masonry on the outside of the house. I advocated for an interior chimney if at all possible or insulating the external chimney if it had to be that way. Now it has switched to being a metal chimney assembly and your advice is right on.
Shortlid, please take a moment to read this article for good tips on new installations. It is mostly directed towards fireplaces, but the principals carry over:
http://www.gulland.ca/BPFinal.pdf
Shortlid, please take a moment to read this article for good tips on new installations. It is mostly directed towards fireplaces, but the principals carry over:
http://www.gulland.ca/BPFinal.pdf
Great reading. Inside is best as with before house already built so would be $$$ and difficult. to boot I already have a foundation poured for the side chimney. I am not crazy about the LOOK of the metal tubular chimney so I would just like to make it LOOK like a masonry chimney. If I can do anything to the chase to make the metal tubular chimney perform better would like to do it WHILE I am building it. I am leaning more towards a wood burning insert inside the chase on teh first main floor. Maybe a small wood stove in the basement for the ONLY heat down there when I finish it. Bagging the idea of the master bed room fireplace insert for now as overkill!
Not that difficult usually. I added a new setup on the first floor to a 1924 farmhouse last year.
No foundation needs to be built for a stove using a metal flue system. I think one problem you may be having is trying to design a combo flue system and are stuck on trying to use the preexisting pad. You may be right, but for a moment suspend the idea of a combo flue system. The pad installation may have been a mistake. If so move on. Knowing what you know now, if you were installing only one stove on the main floor, what would be the *best* location?
Taking this one stove at a time and referring only to a main floor stove: In our house, we cut through the 2nd fl floor, located the exact position of the joists and then once the ceiling support box location was exactly located, cut through the 1st fl ceiling and installed the ceiling support. The second floor cut was in a closet, so it was a compromise we could live with. Is that a possible option?
As to the basement stove, maybe that is better to deal with as a separate flue system? Maybe even consider a pellet or gas or electric heater if this is not a daily used area. If it is, then a single, exterior flue for a basement stove may be all that's required.
Ultimately you will have to decide what is best for you. But often we get stuck in a rut. It's helpful to start with a clean slate at times and to think outside the box. You may come back to your original plan, but at least at that point you won't be doing a lot of 'what-ifs' about options unexplored.
Taking this one stove at a time and referring only to a main floor stove: In our house, we cut through the 2nd fl floor, located the exact position of the joists and then once the ceiling support box location was exactly located, cut through the 1st fl ceiling and installed the ceiling support. The second floor cut was in a closet, so it was a compromise we could live with. Is that a possible option?
As to the basement stove, maybe that is better to deal with as a separate flue system? Maybe even consider a pellet or gas or electric heater if this is not a daily used area. If it is, then a single, exterior flue for a basement stove may be all that's required.
Ultimately you will have to decide what is best for you. But often we get stuck in a rut. It's helpful to start with a clean slate at times and to think outside the box. You may come back to your original plan, but at least at that point you won't be doing a lot of 'what-ifs' about options unexplored.
I see your point and that would most likely be the best choice efficiency wise. However I am aiming for some aesthetics as well. I would not like the look of a metal chimney poking out of the center of the roof, and a un used poured foundation for a chimney on the side of the house. I think the house wold look better with a masonry looking chimney on the side on interior. Which brings up a good point could I cover the intieior metal stack with framing and stucco it above the roof line? That would save me on the chase and have the look I want! I guess I could find another use for the foundation/access to the basement on the side. I hate the shingled cap on it now, maybe a sky light there for more light in the basement?
ok.................i'll chime in on this one since in the last two months i've been thru pretty much all your concerns + wet wood.i have a drafty 4 bedroom ranch with an insulated basement.
i built an exterior masonry chimney to replace an old one that had been torn down.end result is a chimney that works ok when its cold outside and the stove is cranking.my draft is lousy with warm temps and stove damped down.
put a monster airtight with a blower and 2 air outlets in the front in the basement.end result was a basement that was 90+ degrees and a main floor that rarely reached 67 no matter how many fans i ran or floor vents i put in or cold air returns i added.3/4 of the way up the basement stairs you hit a wall of cold air and all the registers were cold.plus i was going thru an extreme amount of wood.so far was a very unhappy camper.
pulled the monster smoke dragon and installed a quadrafire 4300 step top.what a sweet stove.capable of heating 2200 sq. feet.uh yeah........not from the basement.now my basement temps were down in the 80's and the main floor was under 65 unless you burned it wide open non stop.very very unhappy guy.was this close
to ordering oil.
put the ol smoke dragon back in and built an airbox the enclosed the air outlets and sits on the top of the stove.bought 200 bux worth of 6" duct work and hooked up 4 6x10 floor registers.turned on the blower and went upstairs.1st 2 registers were blowing warm air weakly and from there it just died in the pipe.talk about frustration.
bought a small furnace blower at local builders exchange for 30 bux.added a 6x10 register box with a 6" round inlet to the output of the blower,added a 6" to 4" reducer and ran it into the existing blower opening.built an inlet box to accept a standard furnace filter to clean the air up a bit and let her rip.now we gots heat
it runs pretty much constantly on low,the basement stays around 75-80 and the main floor between 72-76.if it gets too warm we just shut off the blower.now that i've got this set up working i'm going to look into how to get the blower to run off a control unit of some sort with a thermostat.
with the monster loaded and dampened down i can get a 10 hour burn and come home to a decent bed of coals and still warm ducts and a house thats still 70 plus.i know running it this way my stove and pipe temps are too low,and it does build creosote at a faster rate than normal,but i clean the pipes every 2 weeks and the flue once a month.
my opinion is that chimneys belong inside,stoves belong on the main floor,and that heating from the basement does nothing but overfire the hell outta your stove unless you force the air to the main floor.
we'll get by with this set up for the rest of this year,but next year we will be making a change.
either the quad will find a new home on the main floor,or we'll sell it and buy either an indoor wood furnace or an outdoor boiler since the house has forced hot water installed already.
this is by no means me telling others to do as i have,just stating what we've had to do to get by with the heating mistakes we've made for the 1st year..........jeremy
i built an exterior masonry chimney to replace an old one that had been torn down.end result is a chimney that works ok when its cold outside and the stove is cranking.my draft is lousy with warm temps and stove damped down.
put a monster airtight with a blower and 2 air outlets in the front in the basement.end result was a basement that was 90+ degrees and a main floor that rarely reached 67 no matter how many fans i ran or floor vents i put in or cold air returns i added.3/4 of the way up the basement stairs you hit a wall of cold air and all the registers were cold.plus i was going thru an extreme amount of wood.so far was a very unhappy camper.
pulled the monster smoke dragon and installed a quadrafire 4300 step top.what a sweet stove.capable of heating 2200 sq. feet.uh yeah........not from the basement.now my basement temps were down in the 80's and the main floor was under 65 unless you burned it wide open non stop.very very unhappy guy.was this close
to ordering oil.put the ol smoke dragon back in and built an airbox the enclosed the air outlets and sits on the top of the stove.bought 200 bux worth of 6" duct work and hooked up 4 6x10 floor registers.turned on the blower and went upstairs.1st 2 registers were blowing warm air weakly and from there it just died in the pipe.talk about frustration.
bought a small furnace blower at local builders exchange for 30 bux.added a 6x10 register box with a 6" round inlet to the output of the blower,added a 6" to 4" reducer and ran it into the existing blower opening.built an inlet box to accept a standard furnace filter to clean the air up a bit and let her rip.now we gots heat
it runs pretty much constantly on low,the basement stays around 75-80 and the main floor between 72-76.if it gets too warm we just shut off the blower.now that i've got this set up working i'm going to look into how to get the blower to run off a control unit of some sort with a thermostat.with the monster loaded and dampened down i can get a 10 hour burn and come home to a decent bed of coals and still warm ducts and a house thats still 70 plus.i know running it this way my stove and pipe temps are too low,and it does build creosote at a faster rate than normal,but i clean the pipes every 2 weeks and the flue once a month.
my opinion is that chimneys belong inside,stoves belong on the main floor,and that heating from the basement does nothing but overfire the hell outta your stove unless you force the air to the main floor.
we'll get by with this set up for the rest of this year,but next year we will be making a change.
either the quad will find a new home on the main floor,or we'll sell it and buy either an indoor wood furnace or an outdoor boiler since the house has forced hot water installed already.
this is by no means me telling others to do as i have,just stating what we've had to do to get by with the heating mistakes we've made for the 1st year..........jeremy
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