practices in re-wiring kitchen for remodel

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RustyShackleford

RustyShackleford

Minister of Fire
Jan 6, 2009
1,344
NC
Doing a kitchen remodel, I've having to move the electrics around quite a bit. Most of the Romex goes up into the attic. A couple of questions:

1. I have Romex going thru holes in the wall top-plate which are dutifully caulked with regular latex caulk (not firestop). The stuff is pretty tough. Is it ok to pull really hard on the Romex to get it out, assuming I'll pulling straight and not at a angle ? Any hints on softening up or removing the caulk ?

2. If any of the Romex is not long enough to reach the new location of its box, is it cool to splice it (in a new box) in the attic ? Or would that be considered bad form and I really ought to make new runs to the breaker box (which is at the same end of the house).

Thanks.
 
Sounds like you know most of the answer... Romex can handle a lot of pull, but not hard or repeated bending. Boxed splices are 'OK', but definitly not preffered, and MUST remain accessible. what size is in there? If 15A / 14ga, I would be taking the opportunity to upgrade to 20A/12ga. Just be sure to do the entire circuit before upsizing a breaker.
If the holes were drilled straight and smooth, or if not filled through, you might pull up on the wire and pop the cork. More likely, you will need to dig out as much caulk as you can. A small, old/blunt screwdriver works. maybe drill small holes around the caulk.
 
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Or you can the wire close to the 2x and drill a new hole for a new wire. Sometimes the frustration isn't worth it.
 
Zkx14 said:
If you decide to replace a wire. Just cut the old one where it goes through the goop and drill a new hole
Click to expand...


This. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Doing this could shorten the job by hours. Wire isn't as cheap as it used to be, but still isn't real expensive.
 
I was rewiring a bathroom in my daughter's house a few months back and spent an hour fishing a wire through 5 ft of wall. Finally put a camera in the hole to help guide it past all the pipes. It kept getting stuck on a piece of lath that was sticking out inside the wall. It can get very frustrating.
 
EatenByLimestone said:
This. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Doing this could shorten the job by hours. Wire isn't as cheap as it used to be, but still isn't real expensive.
Click to expand...
I guess I wasn't clear either. I'm not trying to replace wires (they are in good shape, house 30 years old). I am moving electrical boxes as part of a remodel. By recovering the entire wire from the old box (which means trying to retrieve it through the caulked hole), I stand a chance of simply re-routing the wire to the new box location (depending upon where it is relative to the old location).

But now I think on it, 30 years isn't really that young either, and Romex really isn't that expesnsive in the grand scheme. So maybe I should just start over - with a new run from the breaker box.
 
I can't imagine you'd regret the outlets being on new circuits. Kitchen appliances use lots of powert and you can be sure that new ones are gfi protected.
 
If it were my kitchen, I would study the latest NEC as it applies to kitchens, rip it all out and rewire. That way you're sure that everything is right and up to your current usage, and you'll never have to touch it again.

I plan to do this to my kitchen that was rewired in 1986.
 
Buzz Saw said:
Romex is cheap now compared to 8 years ago. 1000' 12-2 $200ish.
Click to expand...
Yeah, and it's mostly 14-2 anyhow, and I probably have enough 12-2 lying around from other recent project to not buy any of that anyhow. Especially since the kitchen is within 10-20ft of the breaker box and all routing accessible from a single attic, it's probably no more trouble to run new lines that to try to get the stuff out of the caulked holes.
 
Two separate circuits for your countertop outlets (12-2, 20 amp). One for the refridge, one for the dishwaser. Put the dishwasher one under the sink cabinet (if it is located next to the dishwasher). Outlet has to be accessible to service the dish washer properly. One separate one for the microwave (good practice). 5 outlet/appliance circuits was a minimum when we used to do new homes. Microwaves and toasters on the same circuit spell trouble.
 
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RustyShackleford said:
I have Romex going thru holes in the wall top-plate which are dutifully caulked with regular latex caulk (not firestop). The stuff is pretty tough. ... Any hints on softening up or removing the caulk ?
Click to expand...
Went up in the attic with a tea kettle of near-boiling water and a horse syringe. Squirted a syringe-full of the water into each top-plate hole. Worked like a charm.

I'll probably end up using a lot of new Romex, but I hate to cut off an existing piece and possibly wish I hadn't later.
 
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[LTE="RustyShackleford, post: 2063374, member: 9345"]Went up in the attic with a tea kettle of near-boiling water and a horse syringe. Squirted a syringe-full of the water into each top-plate hole. Worked like a charm.

I'll probably end up using a lot of new Romex, but I hate to cut off an existing piece and possibly wish I hadn't later.[/QUOTE]



I'll have to store that idea for future use!
 
RustyShackleford said:
Went up in the attic with a tea kettle of near-boiling water and a horse syringe. Squirted a syringe-full of the water into each top-plate hole. Worked like a charm.
Click to expand...
By the way, I should remark that it's generally considered a bad idea to get Romex wet - mainly, you don't want water to get inside the outer sheath, especially if there's paper packing in there. The way I did this - pouring water into the tops of the holes in the framing, and then pulling the wires out from the top with the opening in the sheath pointing downwards, and the whole process taking less than a minute - should mitigate such concerns.

Also, note I was dealing with latex caulk. Other types of caulk, particularly "fire stop" caulk, may not work as well.
 
hockeypuck said:
Two separate circuits for your countertop outlets (12-2, 20 amp). One for the refridge, one for the dishwaser. Put the dishwasher one under the sink cabinet (if it is located next to the dishwasher). Outlet has to be accessible to service the dish washer properly. One separate one for the microwave (good practice). 5 outlet/appliance circuits was a minimum when we used to do new homes. Microwaves and toasters on the same circuit spell trouble.
Click to expand...
We did the same, and did homerun with the Microwave. The Stove was Hardwired, we changed it to an outlet....just makes things easier in the long run
 
hockeypuck said:
Two separate circuits for your countertop outlets (12-2, 20 amp). One for the refridge, one for the dishwaser. Put the dishwasher one under the sink cabinet (if it is located next to the dishwasher). Outlet has to be accessible to service the dish washer properly. One separate one for the microwave (good practice). 5 outlet/appliance circuits was a minimum when we used to do new homes. Microwaves and toasters on the same circuit spell trouble.
Click to expand...
I'm a little perplexed by the usual advice to put fridge on a dedicated circuit. Previously (before this remodel) a single 20amp circuit powered the fridge and microwave, plus a rarely used wall outlet. Without any issues whatsoever. And aren't modern refrigerators way more efficient than old (in my case, 28 years) ones ? But maybe their peak usage (e.g. defrost cycles) is as high or higher ?
 
You're in it that far run the extra circuits. It's cheap and easy now, I would not cheap out with all the other work being done.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
Buzz Saw said:
You're in it that far run the extra circuits. It's cheap and easy now, I would not cheap out with all the other work being done.
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Just curious. But with "space saver" breakers, plenty more room in the load center.
 
I'm also trying to figure out the wiring for the new range; it is a "dual fuel" unit with gas burners and two ovens (one big and one small). The installation manual seems very wishy-washy to me, and I wonder if anyone here can make more sense of it:

http://www.kitchenaid.com/digitalassets/KFDD500ESS/Installation Instruction_EN.pdf

It does not even have the model number of the unit (KFDD500ESS) on it (although it is in the URL). If you go to page 6, it kinda says you need 40 amps and kinda says you need 50 amps. And the kilowatt ratings are pretty out of kilter (with the amperage times the voltage). And what's up with mentioning 120v ? About the only definitive statement is that the power cord is rated for 40 amps and 240vac. So I guess that's my answer, but I still can't quite decipher all the other stuff.

I telephoned KA, and when I told them I didn't have the appliance in hand (to look at the serial-number plate on the back of it) and wanted to be able to do the wiring beforehand, they were flabbergasted. They then attempted to connect me with "trade, who might know more" and I was promptly disconnected. Frustrating.
 
RustyShackleford said:
I'm also trying to figure out the wiring for the new range; it is a "dual fuel" unit with gas burners and two ovens (one big and one small). The installation manual seems very wishy-washy to me, and I wonder if anyone here can make more sense of it:

http://www.kitchenaid.com/digitalassets/KFDD500ESS/Installation Instruction_EN.pdf

It does not even have the model number of the unit (KFDD500ESS) on it (although it is in the URL). If you go to page 6, it kinda says you need 40 amps and kinda says you need 50 amps. And the kilowatt ratings are pretty out of kilter (with the amperage times the voltage). And what's up with mentioning 120v ? About the only definitive statement is that the power cord is rated for 40 amps and 240vac. So I guess that's my answer, but I still can't quite decipher all the other stuff.

I telephoned KA, and when I told them I didn't have the appliance in hand (to look at the serial-number plate on the back of it) and wanted to be able to do the wiring beforehand, they were flabbergasted. They then attempted to connect me with "trade, who might know more" and I was promptly disconnected. Frustrating.
Click to expand...
Wire it up for 50amp service. I believe that's 6 gauge copper wire. You will need to use a cable with 4 wires. Two hots wires, neutral, and a ground.

The 120v is probably referencing the light bulb & controls. The neutral is needed to properly use 120v.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
by code you won't be able to use those half breakers for your kitchen. all new wiring has to be arc fault breakers or mc cable instead of romex. the refridge are efficient except when the go into the defrost cycle. all wiring but lights in a kitchen has to be 12 ga and the counter outlets can go no where but the counters. circuit for microwave can only have it and the inspectors ok the extra outlet for a gas stove if there is to be one. the circuit for the dishwasher can only have itself and maybe a small disposal nothing else. so you'll be stuck doing five arc fault and also gfi for any outlet in the kitchen. you can use gfi outlets or the combo arc fault gfi breakers if you outlet the dishwasher it will need a gfi also.
 
fbelec said:
by code you won't be able to use those half breakers for your kitchen. all new wiring has to be arc fault breakers or mc cable instead of romex. the refridge are efficient except when the go into the defrost cycle. all wiring but lights in a kitchen has to be 12 ga and the counter outlets can go no where but the counters. circuit for microwave can only have it and the inspectors ok the extra outlet for a gas stove if there is to be one. the circuit for the dishwasher can only have itself and maybe a small disposal nothing else. so you'll be stuck doing five arc fault and also gfi for any outlet in the kitchen. you can use gfi outlets or the combo arc fault gfi breakers if you outlet the dishwasher it will need a gfi also.
Click to expand...
Who's code, NEC or local?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
Buzz Saw said:
Who's code, NEC or local?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
No code. This will not be inspected. Of course I want to do it the "right way", but I'm not going to obsess over code. But code would be NEC.

I plan to have (more or less re-use) two existing GFCI protected 20amp circuits for countertop. Plus a third for a wet bar (electric kettle, coffee mill, etc). Dedicated 15-or 20-amp circuits (at my convenience, per existing wiring) for dishwasher, microwave, refrigerator. A 40 or 50 amp circuit for the range (hence my question above, since the installation manual is so confusing on this). Modern refrigerators and microwaves do not require 20 amps, in fact the installation manuals for the ones I'm using say a 15- or 20-amp circuit is "required" and a "dedicated" circuit is recommended.

I think that's more or less to code, except for the arc-fault business. Since none of the rest of the house is arc-fault, I'm not going to worry about it.
 
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