Help getting ready to install an insert

SiriusDeBord · Feb 29, 2016

I am in the process of getting ready to install an insert into and old Heatilator fireplace. The old brickwork was falling apart so I removed most of the brick surround. Now comes the fun part of trying to put it back together so I wont burn down my home.

Can I rebuild the surround with steel studs covered in durock and some sort of tile or stone? I would also like to shrink down the opening of the fireplace slightly to match the new insert better. I will also be covering up the old Heatilator vents and filling them the best I can with some Rockwool. The front of the Heatilator is also rusted through, will the be an issue?

I am planning on getting a Lopi Republic 1250i or the Lopi Answer. I am also open to suggestions I am looking for something close to a flush mount unit.

Here are some photos of what I am working with and an additional photo of what I was thinking of doing. Sorry if this is not formatted correctly and thanks for taking a look. Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

mol1jb · Mar 1, 2016

So basically I am looking at a masonry chimney with a heatilator insert? If that is the case I would think you are good to go. One concern I have about making the fireplace smaller is if you want to upsize your insert at some point it would be difficult to do. If it were me I would not change the dimensions of the fireplace just in case.

If this is the case where it is a Zero clearance unit then your insert selection would be limited. Most inserts are made for masonry fireplace applications. Putting an insert into a zero clearance fireplace is a much more difficult application. Usually because they are framed with wood and have combustible materials around them.

After you clarify if it is masonry or Zero clearance we can advise further.

bholler · Mar 1, 2016

mol1jb said:
After you clarify if it is masonry or Zero clearance we can advise further.

It is a masonry chimney with a metal heatform box in it.

SiriusDeBord said:
I am in the process of getting ready to install an insert into and old Heatilator fireplace. The old brickwork was falling apart so I removed most of the brick surround. Now comes the fun part of trying to put it back together so I wont burn down my home.

Anything you do needs to meet code for a wood burning fireplace here is a link to that code. Yes you can cut out the metal box as long as you still have enough masonry between the insert and any combustible materials

http://codes.iccsafe.org/app/book/content/2015-I-Codes/2015 IRC HTML/Chapter 10.html

SiriusDeBord · Mar 2, 2016

mol1jb said:
So basically I am looking at a masonry chimney with a heatilator insert? If that is the case I would think you are good to go. One concern I have about making the fireplace smaller is if you want to upsize your insert at some point it would be difficult to do. If it were me I would not change the dimensions of the fireplace just in case.

If this is the case where it is a Zero clearance unit then your insert selection would be limited. Most inserts are made for masonry fireplace applications. Putting an insert into a zero clearance fireplace is a much more difficult application. Usually because they are framed with wood and have combustible materials around them.

After you clarify if it is masonry or Zero clearance we can advise further.

It is a masonry chimney with a heatilator insert as far as I know. It looks like it is built with cinder blocks with some sort of ceramic liner going all the way through the attic and roof. I don't plan on cutting out the insert. It seems to me all I have to do is cut open the throat of it to get the new stainless steel liner though for the new insert.

Does the example picture I posted seem like a decent idea? After thinking about it a bit I think I will try and match the same opening size of the old insert. I do have one concern that I need to mate the new surround to the old firebox to avoid hot air from traveling into the wall. Does this seem like a valid concern and might it be something I can accomplish with some sheet metal? Also would it be a good idea to insulate the dead space in the steel studs with rockwool to stop hot air from migrating as well? The only real tricky part so far to me will be anchoring the studs to the masonry in the wall because I have no wood near by to sink some screws into.

bholler · Mar 2, 2016

SiriusDeBord said:
Does the example picture I posted seem like a decent idea? After thinking about it a bit I think I will try and match the same opening size of the old insert. I do have one concern that I need to mate the new surround to the old firebox to avoid hot air from traveling into the wall. Does this seem like a valid concern and might it be something I can accomplish with some sheet metal? Also would it be a good idea to insulate the dead space in the steel studs with rockwool to stop hot air from migrating as well? The only real tricky part so far to me will be anchoring the studs to the masonry in the wall because I have no wood near by to sink some screws into.

Read the code i posted. You need to make what ever you do conform to that code. If you are putting an insert in there your fireplace needs to be built to code. I don't think that steel studs qualify as a fireplace facing. As far as anchoring to the masonry you need a hammer drill and some tapcons or lead anchors.

SiriusDeBord · Mar 2, 2016

bholler said:
Read the code i posted. You need to make what ever you do conform to that code. If you are putting an insert in there your fireplace needs to be built to code. I don't think that steel studs qualify as a fireplace facing. As far as anchoring to the masonry you need a hammer drill and some tapcons or lead anchors.

I have tried to read it a few times now and don't find any real reference to the fireplace facing. Only specs on how close combustible material can be. Is there something you see specifically that jumps out at you as being not up to code? Does the rusted face of the form appear to be a problem? I know it's hard to give sound advice without seeing the whole picture. What type of professional could I seek out in my area to take a look and advise on the best course of action?

bholler · Mar 2, 2016

SiriusDeBord said:
What type of professional could I seek out in my area to take a look and advise on the best course of action?

A chimney sweep or a mason who specializes in fireplaces.

flameretardant · Mar 4, 2016

Welcome to the inspection racket. You are faced with a situation where you need to convince some small minded individual that what you are about to do may not exactly be in his textbook, but is perfectly acceptable. This will be a challenge. I just did this myself.

I replaced a zero clearance with an insert. I built a "masonry" fireplace surround with cement board, heavy gauge steel frame and 4" rock wool insulation. You could build a fire in the box and be fine. Then the insert goes in that. Don't need to insulate the chase above the box.

I had to search to find an inspector sensible enough to understand. Ultimately, there is no choice but to certify such an installation as it meets all requirements but inspectors are hardwired to the outdated belief that masonry = bricks. Most masons these days have never touched a real brick and never will. Masonry = cemetitious product. Period.

What galls me is my install was all fire rated. Everything - the studs, the insulation, the panel. Yet an inspector will hum and haw at it, say it's a "grey area" then go look at a brick chimney built by some schmoe in the 50's who's now dead with not a piece of material actually tested or rated for fire or even being able to see anything more than the facade and liner and immediately give 2 thumbs up.

It is also interesting to note that the insert was built EXACTLY the same as the zero clearance - heavy steel firebox in a sheet metal outer box. Zero difference.

Anyway - didn't mean to vent, but I feel for your situation. it's easy to meet code with modern masonry materials, trick is finding an inspector from this century without a god complex. Good luck!

bholler · Mar 4, 2016

flameretardant said:
I replaced a zero clearance with an insert. I built a "masonry" fireplace surround with cement board, heavy gauge steel frame and 4" rock wool insulation. You could build a fire in the box and be fine. Then the insert goes in that. Don't need to insulate the chase above the box.

I had to search to find an inspector sensible enough to understand. Ultimately, there is no choice but to certify such an installation as it meets all requirements but inspectors are hardwired to the outdated belief that masonry = bricks. Most masons these days have never touched a real brick and never will. Masonry = cemetitious product. Period.

I am really surprised you found an inspector to sign off on that. It does not meet code period. Code calls for solid masonry 10" thick if you don't have a firebrick lining 8" if you do. Yes what you did may be perfectly safe but it was not tested and does not meet code. Code inspectors are not engineers they cannot make a determination as to what is safe they just go by the code and what ever inspector signed off on your install was not doing his job period.

flameretardant said:
It is also interesting to note that the insert was built EXACTLY the same as the zero clearance - heavy steel firebox in a sheet metal outer box. Zero difference.

The difference is that the zero clearance unit was tested thoroughly to make sure it can do what it is designed to do. Your build is not so no one has any idea what it will perform like in the event of an over fire.

How did you transition to a chimney off of the insert?

bholler · Mar 4, 2016

I just saw you are from Canada those are American codes so i am not sure if they are the same but they are usually pretty similar. Ill try to track down the Canadian codes on this.

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