I'm considering a cat stove.....

tlhfirelion · Mar 5, 2016

I'll admit to something up front here that some, well, most of you will frown on. I sometimes burn paper towels, cardboard boxes, junk mail, etc in my stove. Not all at once but if I have a fire going and I get an delivery, I'll flatten the little cardboard box and throw it on an already roaring fire or tear it up and use it to as fire starter. If I have a slice of toast and use a paper towel instead of a plate, I'll wad it up and throw it in the fire. If my kid brings home an art project for the 32nd time that week, not all of them make it into the memory box. lol I don't burn trash per say, nothing wet, nothing like that, but in the 8-10 years I've had my stove, I've done that with paper towels, cardboard, etc. Pipe is always very clean when I check it in the spring and I rarely have to clean it because i burn hot.

While that may work on a cheap old century stove, I wonder what that would do to an Ideal Hybrid for example and the catalyst. Will that OCCASIONAL non wood item cause me massive headaches or will it get hot enough to just incinerate that evil paper towel I just threw in the fire box?

I know dry seasoned wood is king, I'm not advocating burning full diapers, dead squirrels or dumping motor oil in my stove so don't get me wrong here, just curious what a few ancillary combustibles would do to this new (to me) class of stove.

Thanks in advance for not covering me in tar and feathers.

begreen · Mar 5, 2016

Plain paper is ok, but some inks can contaminate the cat. Paper and cardboard also make a lot of fly ash sometimes which might plug some of the cat cells so it's better to not do this. Do you have paper recycling in your area?

branchburner · Mar 5, 2016

tlhfirelion said:
I sometimes burn paper towels, cardboard boxes, junk mail, etc in my stove. Not all at once but if I have a fire going and I get an delivery, I'll flatten the little cardboard box and throw it on an already roaring fire or tear it up and use it to as fire starter.

1) The paper towels, cardboard are ok but recycle the junk mail (and any glossy or colored-ink materials) instead of burning it
2) Use paper/cardboard only when starting or reloading from low coals, and the cat is not going to be immediately engaged
3) Don't feel obliged to burn ALL your scrap paper/cardboard when much could be recycled

I had always heard the same about cat damage, but seems to me if a limited amount of plain paper/cardboard is burned ONLY with the bypass damper open, much of the fly ash and/or ink chemicals will bypass the cat. If you follow #2 above, that will obviously limit the amount of trash burning you can do, anyway.

tlhfirelion · Mar 5, 2016

begreen said:
Plain paper is ok, but some inks can contaminate the cat. Paper and cardboard also make a lot of fly ash sometimes which might plug some of the cat cells so it's better to not do this. Do you have paper recycling in your area?

I do recycle large cardboard boxes, plastics, aluminum, glass, etc. I don't have the best set up for storing the recyclable stuff to begin with, plus the slower I fill the trash, the less I have to go outside in the winter. lol I would hate to invest in a nice expensive cat stove only to have a plugged cat 6 months into owning it. I assumed, maybe incorrectly, that the significant temps in the cat would just incinerate a paper towel. I hadn't thought about before the damper was activated so thats good to know.

I don't ever burn glossy paper or the like, just plain old paper or cardboard. I am using a century stove so I suspect something like the Absolute Hybrid that I'm researching would reduce the number of new fires I have to start, thus reducing my need for paper and kindling in the first place, correct?

Thanks for the replies, guys, helps me make an informed decision proceeding forward.

jetsam · Mar 5, 2016

Popping the door open to chuck in the junk mail every day will eventually break up the cat due to thermal shock. If you respect its cooldown time, the cat won't die of thermal shock, but you'll still be wasting a lot of wood.

If you save it for reload time and wait for the junk to burn off before putting the cat in, should be ok. Still wouldn't suggest it on the off chance that it poisons the cat.

I recycle all that stuff. If I need little stuff to start a fire (inside or outside) I pick up some sticks... in case of rain or snow I whack some small wood off of a dry split with my hatchet.

branchburner · Mar 5, 2016

tlhfirelion said:
I suspect something like the Absolute Hybrid that I'm researching would reduce the number of new fires I have to start, thus reducing my need for paper and kindling in the first place, correct?

Yes, you won't actually need the paper so much, since you should have coals much of the time... but you could still add some paper anyway, since it will take some time to get the stove back up to temp before closing the bypass after reloading.

jetsam · Mar 5, 2016

tlhfirelion said:
I don't ever burn glossy paper or the like, just plain old paper or cardboard. I am using a century stove so I suspect something like the Absolute Hybrid that I'm researching would reduce the number of new fires I have to start, thus reducing my need for paper and kindling in the first place, correct?
.

I think I have lit a fire in my stove four times since October. Let it go out twice for chimney sweeping, once or twice by accident.

I can burn right through a 55 degree day without opening a window, and go 14 hours if the wife and I both have a long day at work, so new fires are not at all common. Expecting 20 hour burns next year after the stove is properly set up (which it's not now).

When I built a woodpile right by the front door for easy stove stocking, I made a couple feet of it a branch-and-twig pile on the theory that I'd need lots of kindling. ...as it turns out that section of the pile is pretty much still full at the end of the winter, but the little birds that come for the wife's bird feeders used it all winter, so it wasn't a total loss.

I have a Blaze King, but I've read about people getting similar performance from Ideal Steel. Having grown up with fireplaces and old fashioned stoves, these fancy new ones are amazing to me.

kennyp2339 · Mar 6, 2016

I came from a house that burned firewood the last 5 years I lived there, my parents have a century insert in the living room.
I remember when my dad and I went shopping for it, It was right after hurricane Katrina hit the gulf coast and the price of fuel went through the roof. Both of us had no idea what we were getting into. The woodstove shop had what seemed like at the time a million types of stoves, the sales man (owner) went through each type and was patient with us, he steered us towards the century epa re-burn tube insert, I think it had a 2.5 cu foot firebox, and a good portion of the stove sat outside the existing fire place (12" or so)
That stove with the blower is an awesome heater, and it has really held up great through the years and will easily last another ten years no problem.
Coming from that experience and after buying my first home I was inclined to install an epa re-burn tube stove, it seemed that there was an ease of use, (less complicated operation) and that a cat type stove was more technical (walking on the moon here) with flipping levers, watching temps, adjusting air supply, replacing wearable parts.
I bought my first stove (cheap stove and I got what I paid for) and it only lasted 2 full seasons before falling apart, I took the BK challenge and figured that either the operation of a cat stove is real easy or all cat stove owners work for nasa. In the end I'm glad I went with the cat stove, I feel its much easier to operate that an epa stove and its much easier to clean (no taking out air tubes, baffle boards, insulation shields)
You just got to be aware on how it works, you can burn paper with non corrugated cardboard on start ups with the by-pass opened, you never want to open the loading door with the by-pass closed or you will get a face full of smoke, or worse, create a thermal shock to the cat. After the Woodstock is in you will be amazed at the extended burn times / heat output that stove loading becomes a special event

JA600L · Mar 6, 2016

jetsam said:
Popping the door open to chuck in the junk mail every day will eventually break up the cat due to thermal shock. If you respect its cooldown time, the cat won't die of thermal shock, but you'll still be wasting a lot of wood.

If you save it for reload time and wait for the junk to burn off before putting the cat in, should be ok. Still wouldn't suggest it on the off chance that it poisons the cat.

I recycle all that stuff. If I need little stuff to start a fire (inside or outside) I pick up some sticks... in case of rain or snow I whack some small wood off of a dry split with my hatchet.

Woodstock uses a stainless steel cat in this stove. They don't seem to have thermal shock issues. I had a conversation with somebody from Woodstock about them throwing firewood in the snow and then right in the stove and closing the bypass. Obviously, they were testing it to see if they could damage the cat.

jetsam · Mar 6, 2016

Ohh I thought they shipped ceramic too. BK does all ceramic now. We hectored BKVP into telling us what he used at home and why, and I think he said he uses ceramic because it goes longer at the tail end of the burn.

(If anyone doesn't know, cats are made with a steel or ceramic substrate.)

Steel vs ceramic:

Steel has no problems with thermal shock. (Good.)
Steel lights off ~100°F lower. (Good.)
Steel cuts out sooner as the stove cools. (Bad.)
Steel can have smaller cells, more efficiency (Good)
Steel can have smaller cells, plugs up faster (Bad)
Steel usually has higher airflow as the cell walls are thinner. (Good)

Be careful when buying steel. EMS makes two metal cat substrates: Durafoil and Dieselfoil. Cat manufacturers are free to use either one. Dieselfoil is cheaper but is not suitable for this application. Beware dishonest manufacturers and bargain priced Steelcats.

Don't base a stove buying decision on what kind of cat it comes with- you're talking about a $150 part in a $2000 stove, and they both work fine.

begreen · Mar 6, 2016

jetsam said:
you're talking about a $150 part in a $2000 stove

More like a $300 part in a $3000 stove, no? And more than that at a dealer. Yes there are cheaper replacements, but do they last or perform as well?

http://www.woodstovecombustors.com/blazeking.html
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...a-blaze-king-ultra.145687/page-2#post-1964120

tlhfirelion · Mar 8, 2016

JA600L said:
Woodstock uses a stainless steel cat in this stove. They don't seem to have thermal shock issues. I had a conversation with somebody from Woodstock about them throwing firewood in the snow and then right in the stove and closing the bypass. Obviously, they were testing it to see if they could damage the cat.

I actually got on here to research that very thing and I would hope I got a SS cat as opposed to ceramic for that very reason. it's not license to burn baby seals of course, but I was getting the impression that the ceramics are a bit delicate and I don't do delicate. lol

tlhfirelion · Mar 8, 2016

kennyp2339 said:
I came from a house that burned firewood the last 5 years I lived there, my parents have a century insert in the living room.
I remember when my dad and I went shopping for it, It was right after hurricane Katrina hit the gulf coast and the price of fuel went through the roof. Both of us had no idea what we were getting into. The woodstove shop had what seemed like at the time a million types of stoves, the sales man (owner) went through each type and was patient with us, he steered us towards the century epa re-burn tube insert, I think it had a 2.5 cu foot firebox, and a good portion of the stove sat outside the existing fire place (12" or so)
That stove with the blower is an awesome heater, and it has really held up great through the years and will easily last another ten years no problem.
Coming from that experience and after buying my first home I was inclined to install an epa re-burn tube stove, it seemed that there was an ease of use, (less complicated operation) and that a cat type stove was more technical (walking on the moon here) with flipping levers, watching temps, adjusting air supply, replacing wearable parts.
I bought my first stove (cheap stove and I got what I paid for) and it only lasted 2 full seasons before falling apart, I took the BK challenge and figured that either the operation of a cat stove is real easy or all cat stove owners work for nasa. In the end I'm glad I went with the cat stove, I feel its much easier to operate that an epa stove and its much easier to clean (no taking out air tubes, baffle boards, insulation shields)
You just got to be aware on how it works, you can burn paper with non corrugated cardboard on start ups with the by-pass opened, you never want to open the loading door with the by-pass closed or you will get a face full of smoke, or worse, create a thermal shock to the cat. After the Woodstock is in you will be amazed at the extended burn times / heat output that stove loading becomes a special event

The extended burn times of these newer stoves have me rather excited. lol I am really looking forward to reduced wood usage and waking up to a 200 degree stove as opposed to the heat pump running. Thanks for the reply.

tlhfirelion · Mar 8, 2016

jetsam said:
Ohh I thought they shipped ceramic too. BK does all ceramic now. We hectored BKVP into telling us what he used at home and why, and I think he said he uses ceramic because it goes longer at the tail end of the burn.

(If anyone doesn't know, cats are made with a steel or ceramic substrate.)

Steel vs ceramic:

Steel has no problems with thermal shock. (Good.)
Steel lights off ~100°F lower. (Good.)
Steel cuts out sooner as the stove cools. (Bad.)
Steel can have smaller cells, more efficiency (Good)
Steel can have smaller cells, plugs up faster (Bad)
Steel usually has higher airflow as the cell walls are thinner. (Good)

Be careful when buying steel. EMS makes two metal cat substrates: Durafoil and Dieselfoil. Cat manufacturers are free to use either one. Dieselfoil is cheaper but is not suitable for this application. Beware dishonest manufacturers and bargain priced Steelcats.

Don't base a stove buying decision on what kind of cat it comes with- you're talking about a $150 part in a $2000 stove, and they both work fine.

Regarding the steel cat cutting out sooner, is there a general rule of thumb there? As in, "most steel cats will cut out 10%/1 hour sooner/faster than ceramic", or something to that effect?

tlhfirelion · Mar 8, 2016

jetsam said:
I think I have lit a fire in my stove four times since October. Let it go out twice for chimney sweeping, once or twice by accident.

I can burn right through a 55 degree day without opening a window, and go 14 hours if the wife and I both have a long day at work, so new fires are not at all common. Expecting 20 hour burns next year after the stove is properly set up (which it's not now).

When I built a woodpile right by the front door for easy stove stocking, I made a couple feet of it a branch-and-twig pile on the theory that I'd need lots of kindling. ...as it turns out that section of the pile is pretty much still full at the end of the winter, but the little birds that come for the wife's bird feeders used it all winter, so it wasn't a total loss.

I have a Blaze King, but I've read about people getting similar performance from Ideal Steel. Having grown up with fireplaces and old fashioned stoves, these fancy new ones are amazing to me.

I see your point. I suspect I may have more new fires than you due to my location at the Arkansas/Missouri border. While our winters can have brutal stretches, they don't last anywhere near as long as yours. We have days in the middle of Feb where a fire isn't needed, then we get an ice storm and snow for 3 days, then it warms, etc. We don't typically get snow that arrives and stays. That said, if I do have more new fires, it would be many and it's great to hear the long term burns these stoves can offer.

jetsam · Mar 8, 2016

tlhfirelion said:
I see your point. I suspect I may have more new fires than you due to my location at the Arkansas/Missouri border. While our winters can have brutal stretches, they don't last anywhere near as long as yours. We have days in the middle of Feb where a fire isn't needed, then we get an ice storm and snow for 3 days, then it warms, etc. We don't typically get snow that arrives and stays. That said, if I do have more new fires, it would be many and it's great to hear the long term burns these stoves can offer.

It's 54 in the shade going up to 63 here right now, and I am burning. It's 73 in the stove room. I just turned the stove down to near-minimum to keep the indoor temp where it is as the day warms. With the right stove, you can burn right through those warm days (and the wood lasts a really long time on such occasions).

Highbeam · Mar 8, 2016

tlhfirelion said:
Regarding the steel cat cutting out sooner, is there a general rule of thumb there? As in, "most steel cats will cut out 10%/1 hour sooner/faster than ceramic", or something to that effect?

It's not that pronounced. In fact, I bet you'll never know the difference. I went from ceramic to steel last year and I did not notice this at all and I'm a stove nerd. Almost no clogging either on the BK with SS. The Woodstock hybrids are more prone to clogging from reports here on the forum. I would recommend SS cats and apparently so do the manufacturers since BK and Woodstock sell most of their models with SS cats now.

jetsam said:
BK does all ceramic now.

Nope. You can't even buy a ceramic cat for most of their stoves. The princess and king are shipped with either ceramic or SS depending on supply. Since ceramic is cheaper and pretty dang good, mostly those two models ship with ceramic.

Either substrate is very good. It is not a mistake to have ceramic and not a must-do upgrade but if you have the choice, I like the SS.

jetsam · Mar 8, 2016

tlhfirelion said:
Regarding the steel cat cutting out sooner, is there a general rule of thumb there? As in, "most steel cats will cut out 10%/1 hour sooner/faster than ceramic", or something to that effect?

If that was addressed to me, I did all my research online, but there are plenty of people on this forum who have used both in the s

tlhfirelion said:
Regarding the steel cat cutting out sooner, is there a general rule of thumb there? As in, "most steel cats will cut out 10%/1 hour sooner/faster than ceramic", or something to that effect?

I have no experience with steel, but BKVP says roughly 10% in this thread.

Here is a good thread with lots of steel vs. ceramic info.

Moar in the 2015 BK Megathread.

Some very knowledgeable people who have used both don't agree with each other about which one they'd rather run in their stoves. I think the safe answer is "They're both good, but make sure you don't get a dieselfoil one".

Highbeam · Mar 8, 2016

This 10%/1 hour thing is nuts.

My cat stays active for 30 hours. 10% of that is 3 hours. I think the 10% is bogus. Maybe the one hour but even that is doubtful. What are we even talking about? Neither cat goes inactive if there is still fuel for it to eat. The "extra" one hour can only refer to the time it takes for the cat to cool off after it stops eating smoke and is more a function of thermal mass. If you keep fuel in the stove then this whole "extra" hour is completely meaningless.

tlhfirelion · Mar 8, 2016

Good information guys, thanks for all the helpful replies.

venator260 · Mar 8, 2016

jetsam said:
It's 54 in the shade going up to 63 here right now, and I am burning. It's 73 in the stove room. I just turned the stove down to near-minimum to keep the indoor temp where it is as the day warms. With the right stove, you can burn right through those warm days (and the wood lasts a really long time on such occasions).

Just out of curiosity here, why would you keep the stove going at all in such a temperature? Is it simply an aversion to restarting a fire? Or does the need to have a fire at night burning low to remain comfortable (I see that you're a bit farther north than I am) mean that you'll have a fire through the day as a consequence?

jetsam · Mar 8, 2016

I have an aversion to having the oil burner kick on! It kicks on at 60, and I like it at 75. A 60 degree day is either going to need a little push from the stove, especially if it's not sunny.

I didn't actually decide to have the stove burn all day today, it just was still getting through the wood from the overnight burn (I filled her up and set the thermostat fairly low around midnight last night).

I understand the big BKs like the King can go a couple days under very low burn.

I wasn't able to burn this low at first, but I improved my draft and scrounged some dry pine.

I just loaded it for the night about 15 minutes ago. Had just a few little coals left and no useful heat. I will probably top it off around midnight, turn it down very low when I get up, and feed it again tomorrow night.

It's a whole different rhythm from old wood stoves. I already run my stove with a thermostat; the day when you set a digital thermostat to your desired indoor temperature, put some wood in the hole, and forget it for a day or two can't be far in the future.

venator260 · Mar 8, 2016

jetsam said:
I have an aversion to having the oil burner kick on! It kicks on at 60, and I like it at 75. A 60 degree day is either going to need a little push from the stove, especially if it's not sunny.

I didn't actually decide to have the stove burn all day today, it just was still getting through the wood from the overnight burn (I filled her up and set the thermostat fairly low around midnight last night).

I understand the big BKs like the King can go a couple days under very low burn.

I wasn't able to burn this low at first, but I improved my draft and scrounged some dry pine.

I just loaded it for the night about 15 minutes ago. Had just a few little coals left and no useful heat. I will probably top it off around midnight, turn it down very low when I get up, and feed it again tomorrow night.

It's a whole different rhythm from old wood stoves. I already run my stove with a thermostat; the day when you set a digital thermostat to your desired indoor temperature, put some wood in the hole, and forget it for a day or two can't be far in the future.

I see. I was just curious. You're a little farther north than I am. With the daytime temps hitting the 70's here and overnights at 40-45, I haven't had a fire since mine burned out Monday afternoon. Of course, with my stove, that means I fixed it last on Monday morning and left it a half a turn farther open than my usual daytime setting.

I've read the same about the King, and the reviews sound amazing. I'm not sure that I can convince the wife of the need for a 3,000 dollar stove plus a chimney reline to 8 inches.

jetsam · Mar 8, 2016

venator260 said:
I see. I was just curious. You're a little farther north than I am. With the daytime temps hitting the 70's here and overnights at 40-45, I haven't had a fire since mine burned out Monday afternoon. Of course, with my stove, that means I fixed it last on Monday morning and left it a half a turn farther open than my usual daytime setting.

I've read the same about the King, and the reviews sound amazing. I'm not sure that I can convince the wife of the need for a 3,000 dollar stove plus a chimney reline to 8 inches.

The Princess has the same technology, just a smaller firebox. 6" liner. Woodstock apparently also gets crazy burn times out of some of their stoves. Haven't heard of any other companies that are in the same league for low and slow burns. Either way, you're not looking at a cheap stove.

venator260 · Mar 8, 2016

jetsam said:
The Princess has the same technology, just a smaller firebox. 6" liner. Woodstock apparently also gets crazy burn times out of some of their stoves. Haven't heard of any other companies that are in the same league for low and slow burns. Either way, you're not looking at a cheap stove.

I know. I've also been looking at the Ideal Steel Hybrid from Woodstock, which i should be able to get to my door for under 2500 dollars. That's an easier pill to swallow than 3k plus tax plus whever a chimney costs to reline.

I'm considering a cat stove.....

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