reducing electrical bill

tlhfirelion · Mar 8, 2016

I'm trying to see what I can do aside from what I already know to reduce my electric bill.

Info on my home is this. Very northern Arkansas. 1500 sq ft home, 30 years old.

Average electric bill on an all electric house for 12 months is about 125 bucks a month.

Last month was a higher bill where we used 1300 KWH. We use more in the winter
We have a heat pump thats about 15 years old which I know if that was newer would reduce our bill some. Over the past few years we have upgraded all our appliances to tier 3 energy star and replaced our water heater with a marathon water heater. All light bulbs are LED. I added blown cellulose insulation to the attic this past summer on top of the rolled and blown fiberglass. Walls are R11 fiberglass so I'm not sure what I can do about that aside from ripping out all the dry wall. Windows and doors are all new within the last 3 years, low E coating and all that. I've used countless cans of foam filling holes and gaps and the like. We are planning to upgrade our wood stove to a cat stove this next fall so that should help a lot from our old century home depot stove. I had considered getting spray foam in the crawlspace on the underside of the upstairs to make the wood floors warmer but I don't know if that will help enough to justify the cost.

I looked at solar but it's just not worth it cost wise yet. We are a family of 4. When I compare my electric bill to my neighbors we are much less but I still feel like it's too high. Aside from the wood stove and heat pump, is there anything I can do to further reduce the electric usage and increase the comfort in our home?

Thanks in advance for any assistance you are able to provide.

EatenByLimestone · Mar 8, 2016

Education can help you figure out what to target next. Go room to room with a kill-a-watt and measure the draw of everything plugged in.

DBoon · Mar 8, 2016

One modestly sized mini-split heat pump in a central place in your house may be a big increase in efficiency compared to an existing ducted heat pump.

iamlucky13 · Mar 8, 2016

Do you know your annual total electricity usage in kWh? That would give a slightly better idea how much you're using than just your average bill.

Even with a well-insulated water heater, heating water is still going to be a large chunk of your energy bill. Do you have low flow showerheads? If the showerhead is not labeled with a flow rate, you can calculate the rate by timing how long it takes to fill a bucket of known size.

I find 2 to 2.5 gpm can still be a pretty reasonable flow rate from a decent showerhead. It's the ultra low flow 1.5 gpm models that really get complaints about feeling lackluster. Supposedly a lot of older showerheads flow more than 5 gpm. Going from 5 gpm to 2.5 gpm would save somewhere around $5/month for a 5 minute shower daily. If all four of you are taking even longer showers, it could be significantly more.

Clothes and dishwashers could also use a modest chunk of your energy, although probably not large enough to justify replacing them if they're working properly.

If you use air conditioning, making sure your attic is well ventilated may help reduce that load some (and help prolong your roof life).

Replacing the heat pump would probably have a small to moderate savings, and at 15 years old, that may be something to start planning for anyways since 15-20 years is supposedly typical for a heat pump, but if your thermostat does not have a smart recovery capability, that would be the first change I'd make. Honeywell 7-day programmable models start at about $90 and give you all the features you need to manage your heat pump effectively. Obviously, Honeywell is one brand of many.

Also, make sure any heating ducts running through uninuslated parts of the house are well sealed and insulated. The recommendation I'm following is to seal every duct seam and register boot with mastic, and wrap the ducts with R8 insulation. I had to go to a heating company to get the R8 duct insulation, because the big box stores only sell R4.

Feeling for drafts around doors, windows, and even electrical outlets can clue you in to additional places to seal.

woodgeek · Mar 8, 2016

The remaining low hanging fruit would be attic and basement airsealing and swapping out the water heater for a heat pump water heater. Reducing hot water usage with low-flow showerheads might also help.

jebatty · Mar 9, 2016

tlhfirelion said:
Info on my home is this. Very northern Arkansas. 1500 sq ft home, 30 years old. Average electric bill on an all electric house for 12 months is about 125 bucks a month.

That is, all electric except for heat from a wood stove. That's twice the amount my wife and I pay (all electric house plus heat from a wood stove) on a 60-year old 1500 sq ft main level, 1500 sq walkout basement, new windows, added insulation where practical -- and we are located in north central Minnesota, a whole lot colder that your location. Our electric rate is $0.12 on general service and $0.07 on electricity for heat and domestic hot water.

Do you have an option for a time of use rate for electric hot water and/or heat? What are your rate options? We get the $0.07 rate on domestic hot water with electricity available only between 11:00 pm and 7:00 am. To make sure we don't run out of hot water, we added a second hot water heater, super-insulated the hot water heaters, and insulated all hot water piping. Also, no long showers or wasting of hot water. We also get the $0.07 rate on electric heat which is interruptible, that is, electricity for heat can be shut off during peak times. The wood stove does fine to heat the house during these times, so well that we don't use much electricity for heat.

peirhead · Mar 9, 2016

What is your water pressure set at?....30 psi is ok for most homeowners,,,if you are at 60 or 70 psi...the higher the pressure the more hot water wasted running the sink, showers etc and higher water use overall (more for the septic to handle) obviously this doesn't matter for toilets and washing machines as they use a set amount of water.

velvetfoot · Mar 9, 2016

I think the focus should be on the electric heat.

mass_burner · Mar 9, 2016

It would be really helpful to know where the load is coming from.

Can you try turning everything off and then running everything one by one, measuring the rate of electric load?

semipro · Mar 9, 2016

OP, I recommend you have an energy audit done that includes thermal imaging and blower door testing. This may cost a bit but it will likely be worth the investment.
You've obviously done a lot to try and seal up the house. Its very possible that you still have some significant thermal or air leakage that is driving HVAC costs too high.
Now its time to use some objective measures to see where you next efforts should be focused.

Edit: as Woodgeek mentioned, have you air sealed your attic (isolating attic from living space)?

tlhfirelion · Mar 10, 2016

DBoon said:
One modestly sized mini-split heat pump in a central place in your house may be a big increase in efficiency compared to an existing ducted heat pump.

I like mini splits but was concerned about the back rooms since it's not quite so open back there. I've had a few contractors bid me minis and around here they're viewed as alien technology for residential. Lol.

tlhfirelion · Mar 10, 2016

iamlucky13 said:
Do you know your annual total electricity usage in kWh? That would give a slightly better idea how much you're using than just your average bill.

Even with a well-insulated water heater, heating water is still going to be a large chunk of your energy bill. Do you have low flow showerheads? If the showerhead is not labeled with a flow rate, you can calculate the rate by timing how long it takes to fill a bucket of known size.

I find 2 to 2.5 gpm can still be a pretty reasonable flow rate from a decent showerhead. It's the ultra low flow 1.5 gpm models that really get complaints about feeling lackluster. Supposedly a lot of older showerheads flow more than 5 gpm. Going from 5 gpm to 2.5 gpm would save somewhere around $5/month for a 5 minute shower daily. If all four of you are taking even longer showers, it could be significantly more.

Clothes and dishwashers could also use a modest chunk of your energy, although probably not large enough to justify replacing them if they're working properly.

If you use air conditioning, making sure your attic is well ventilated may help reduce that load some (and help prolong your roof life).

Replacing the heat pump would probably have a small to moderate savings, and at 15 years old, that may be something to start planning for anyways since 15-20 years is supposedly typical for a heat pump, but if your thermostat does not have a smart recovery capability, that would be the first change I'd make. Honeywell 7-day programmable models start at about $90 and give you all the features you need to manage your heat pump effectively. Obviously, Honeywell is one brand of many.

Also, make sure any heating ducts running through uninuslated parts of the house are well sealed and insulated. The recommendation I'm following is to seal every duct seam and register boot with mastic, and wrap the ducts with R8 insulation. I had to go to a heating company to get the R8 duct insulation, because the big box stores only sell R4.

Feeling for drafts around doors, windows, and even electrical outlets can clue you in to additional places to seal.

All our fixtures are low flow. I dealt with all that recently when calculating what water softener size I needed.

The washer/dryer and dishwasher aren't very old at all and all energy star tier three. They were a big improvement from the very old machines they replaced.

We do use AC as it gets pretty hot and humid here. I've wondered if a dehumidifier add on for our Hvac would help reduce AC usage?

I installed a nest thermostat about 2 years ago.

The heat pump upgrade would show a modest change in our electric bill, I'm sure of that. It's also a pretty penny to buy so we've not done that yet. It's on our horizon. I have been throwing around the idea of putting a liner on the crawlspace floor and insulating the walls to provide storage. I can access the crawl from our basement so it would work out nice. I think that would also provide some insulation for the floor upstairs?

Our water heater is a Marathon and not very old. It's in the basement. I guess I could wrap it but not sure if that would really help much.

Thanks for the detailed reply!

tlhfirelion · Mar 10, 2016

jebatty said:
That is, all electric except for heat from a wood stove. That's twice the amount my wife and I pay (all electric house plus heat from a wood stove) on a 60-year old 1500 sq ft main level, 1500 sq walkout basement, new windows, added insulation where practical -- and we are located in north central Minnesota, a whole lot colder that your location. Our electric rate is $0.12 on general service and $0.07 on electricity for heat and domestic hot water.

Do you have an option for a time of use rate for electric hot water and/or heat? What are your rate options? We get the $0.07 rate on domestic hot water with electricity available only between 11:00 pm and 7:00 am. To make sure we don't run out of hot water, we added a second hot water heater, super-insulated the hot water heaters, and insulated all hot water piping. Also, no long showers or wasting of hot water. We also get the $0.07 rate on electric heat which is interruptible, that is, electricity for heat can be shut off during peak times. The wood stove does fine to heat the house during these times, so well that we don't use much electricity for heat.

Our electric rate is low but it's the same all the time. I inquired about that last fall to see if timing of certain things would help but since our rate is low, there are no peak and low times price wise.

tlhfirelion · Mar 10, 2016

velvetfoot said:
I think the focus should be on the electric heat.

I assume you mean upgrading the heat pump?

tlhfirelion · Mar 10, 2016

mass_burner said:
It would be really helpful to know where the load is coming from.

Can you try turning everything off and then running everything one by one, measuring the rate of electric load?

How would I do that? With the killawatt meter or some other way? I'm by no means an electrician, that's one thing I pay the experts for!

tlhfirelion · Mar 10, 2016

semipro said:
OP, I recommend you have an energy audit done that includes thermal imaging and blower door testing. This may cost a bit but it will likely be worth the investment.
You've obviously done a lot to try and seal up the house. Its very possible that you still have some significant thermal or air leakage that is driving HVAC costs too high.
Now its time to use some objective measures to see where you next efforts should be focused.

Edit: as Woodgeek mentioned, have you air sealed your attic (isolating attic from living space)?

I'll call around and see what my options are around here.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly by air sealing my attic? After adding blown cellulose last year it's an R50 now up from r25.

velvetfoot · Mar 10, 2016

I'm no heat pump expert, but I imagine the less the heat strips run, the better. As was mentioned, the thermostat might play a roll there. I imagine if you replace the heat pump and controls and put in a new stove that assumes a good portion of the heat load, you would be on a good road.

maple1 · Mar 10, 2016

Are you on city water? Or well pump?

semipro · Mar 10, 2016

tlhfirelion said:
I'll call around and see what my options are around here.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly by air sealing my attic? After adding blown cellulose last year it's an R50 now up from r25.

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/pages/how-to-air-seal-attic/

iamlucky13 · Mar 10, 2016

tlhfirelion said:
I installed a nest thermostat about 2 years ago.

That's good as an upgrade over a non-smart recovery thermostat, but I'm not convinced the Nest is a leader for efficiency among smart recovery models - however smart it may be, it doesn't actually know your schedule as well as you do, and talking to people who have one about how they use it, I get the sense that the way it encourages people to adjust the setting whenever they feel like leads them to unconsciously deprioritize being efficient with their heating, and then alters its scheduled set points based on what you did.

If you want to minimize heating use, pay attention to what your thermostat is actually doing, including what temperatures it is choosing and when how much it is running your auxiliary heat. If I remember right, it has some settings that increases the frequency it does that, but you can dig into the settings to change it.

tlhfirelion said:
Our water heater is a Marathon and not very old. It's in the basement. I guess I could wrap it but not sure if that would really help much.

The Marathon is a good unit based on how long it should last, but efficiency ratings of electric resistance water heaters are all in the same very close ballpark. Realistically, only about 5% of the energy your water heater uses is due heat loss. The rest goes to doing what it was supposed to - making cold water hot. Adding a water heater blanket might get you down to 3-4%, which may pay for the blanket, but the only significant way to reduce the cost of an electric water heater is to reduce how much water you heat.

The only other option is to use something less expensive than electric resistance heat. Heat pump water heaters are one option, but probably not appealing since you already bought the Marathon.

velvetfoot · Mar 10, 2016

I put in a supplemental Nyletherm heat pump water heater, connected to my electric resistance water heater. Gary had some discontinued models that he was getting rid of. Not sure what the payback time on it would be. Plus, they do make some noise, but do a little dehumidification.

I looked into the workings of my Ecobee thermostat a while ago, as far as heat stages and auxiliary heat. I recall, for instance, that a return from a setback could trigger auxiliary (electric resistance) heat. I wonder if you could disconnect the electric resistance and see if you could get by? Probably not well, since efficiency to low temps might not be your unit's forte. At a minimum, your stove would be 'auxiliary' heat, and better yet, your main source of heat.

iamlucky13 · Mar 10, 2016

Common thermostat logic is to turn on the auxiliary heat if either the difference between the actual indoor temperature and the setpoint is large, or if the heat pump has been running too long without reaching the setpoint. That brings the house up to temperature quickly when a big change is made, or ensures the house reaches temperature when it's cold enough heat loss exceeds the heat pump's capacity.

Smart recovery, which the Ecobee and Nest both also have, adds some additional logic so that if the setpoint is raised during a scheduled change, it does not turn the aux heat on in response to large difference between actual temp and set point, but because it can take a heat pump a long time to make a large temperature change, it monitors how long it takes to raise the temperature, and remembers to start early next time.

Especially with that feature available, I would not advise disconnecting the aux heat. There will be days it is needed, and doing so would also cause your registers to blow cold air every time the heat pump runs a defrost cycle.

Many heat pump compatible thermostats also have an option to adjust the aux heat lockout temperature. This is the outdoor temperature above which the thermostat never calls for aux heat (except during defrosts). Installers often set this fairly high. Lowering it to a temperature you know your heat pump can keep up with may help efficiency a bit. How is usually detailed in the installer manual, not the user manual.

woodgeek · Mar 10, 2016

Or you could sell the Marathon at a slight loss?

Where2 · Mar 10, 2016

woodgeek said:
Or you could sell the Marathon at a slight loss?

Or you could add a Nyle Geyser R to the Marathon and have something nice, a modular unit where if something goes wrong with the heat pump years from now you don't have to toss the tank...

jebatty · Mar 11, 2016

iamlucky13 said:
The Marathon is a good unit based on how long it should last, but efficiency ratings of electric resistance water heaters are all in the same very close ballpark. Realistically, only about 5% of the energy your water heater uses is due heat loss. The rest goes to doing what it was supposed to - making cold water hot. Adding a water heater blanket might get you down to 3-4%, which may pay for the blanket, but the only significant way to reduce the cost of an electric water heater is to reduce how much water you heat.

Not true in my experience. Our two hot water heaters are on a separate meter. When I raised them off the floor and insulated underneath, then wrapped each on sides and tops with 6" of fiberglass insulation, covered that with aluminized bubble wrap, installed U-shaped heat traps, and also insulated the hot water pipes, electric use dropped by 50% from what it was before these actions. Total cost of these actions was about $60.

But I also agree that reducing use of hot water is an effective way to reduce cost by reducing electricity usage. I think that is evidenced by monthly average electric usage of about 100 kWh, which based on time of use rate costs us about $6/month.

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