Best Electric Water Heater

jebatty said:

I'm putting the Kill-O-Watt on it to verify, my estimate is 2-3/kWh/day.

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That would translate to about $10-15/mo here. Or about half what it costs us for resistance electric DHW.

So if a HPWH could cut your electricity consumption for DHW in half (think that's been reported on here) AND displace a dehumidifier at the same time - that's some real compounding savings going on.

thinkxingu said:

Yes, if your water heater isn't in a closet, doesn't require a condensate pump, you don't need to raise the temp of the room for the heat pump to work effectively, you don't have major computer-control-wrecking power outages, the HP water heater is as reliable and doesn't cost much more than a standard one, and your numbers are correct. Be interesting to know for sure!

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The only one of those I might be concerned about is the control-wrecking power outage thing. Then again, there is lots of sensitive electronic stuff kicking around this place that we haven't lost yet. Well, I did have a computer motherboard go bad one time, that may or may not have been outage related. There might be whole-house protection available that would protect everything?

The closet situation might be able to be overcome by some ducting, condensate has to be dealt with somehow if using a dehumidifier anyway & condensate pumps are cheap (the condensate from our Venmar just drips into a 25 gallon plastic barrel in our basement, that gets used to flush toilets in an outage), don't think I have read yet of anyone having to raise their temps for a HP to work effectively, I think the HPWH defaults to ordinary resistance heating if something happens to the HP side, and also doesn't sound like a big cost difference from some of the incentives I have read about on here.

But it still comes down to situational issues, and personal preferences & priorities - all of those might not apply to everyone. And yes it is all very interesting - I'm not sure right now what we would do if our resistance heater were to go belly up. Likely another one (incentives are quite lacking here) - but there would be lots to consider.

thinkxingu said:

Yeah, I decided to skip power outage consideration.

I can get a hybrid for $1000 with a $300 federal tax credit and maybe a credit from my power company (if I get it professionally installed). I'm guessing somewhere around $800 in the end,

From what I've read, if I keep the basement at 60 in the winter, I'd have to use the hybrid mode which saves MAYBE 10%--at that rate, I'd save around $25/year. Assuming ten trouble-free years, I'd barely break even.

I'm leaning towards a Kenmore 50 gallon for $508 with free delivery. We have a Kenmore now that has been solid for 12 years, and the fit would be perfect.

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Check with your local Power company Mine is giving $400 , plus the heap pump only mode is good down to about 40 degrees .so you could run it all the time in heat pump only. It only reduces the room temp by about 2 degrees ,intermittently. Its incredibally easy to hook up took me about 10 minutes.

velvetfoot said:

The heat pump water heater makes noise and the resistance model is silent.

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Sounds like a small refrigerator.

Seasoned Oak said:

Sounds like a small refrigerator.

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Our older blue top Geospring is louder than that, a definite potential downside.
On the other hand, Ours has been relatively problem-free for over 4 years now.
We had one error code that never resurfaced after a hard reboot.
The humidification and filtering of our basement air has been a real bonus.

thinkxingu said:

I did--the rebate would essentially cover the required installation, which I can do by myself. The only one I've found that would make sense, the Geospring, gets very varied reviews. The ones that get great reviews are $500+ more.

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I think GE has ironed out most of the flaws by now. Waranty work cuts into the bottom line. They do give a 10 years parts warranty which i can do myself. The first ones from china had most of the problems,now all made in USA.

First impressions ,this is a quality unit (the geospring 50 gal) Whenever it runs my dehumififier shuts off,so im saving there as well. I should have bought one of these a long time ago. I have 6 people here and use 7000 gals of water a month most of it HOT water.

thinkxingu said:

"Relatively" is not what I'm looking for!

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Just sharing what I know...for all reading.
Its anecdotal of course, but my resistance electrical heater has required more maintenance then the GeoSpring. We have two water heaters and hard well water.
The hard water is very tough on resistance elements.
The design of the Geospring with the heating coil embedded in the outer wall of the tank should actually result in less build-up of minerals there. Since we use our GS in HP only mode the minerals should not build up much on the "back-up" elements.

I wanted to go with the Geospring 50 gallon hybrid. It is superior technology compared to just an electric water heater. In reality the Geospring is cheaper in real dollars over time. And any rebates really make it cheaper.

Why I didn't get the hybrid? The $300 federal rebate doesn't apply for new construction. My state only offers $35 rebate. And most importantly, I would have to locate the WH in a location where the machine's noise could be heard - to bad. I was thinking of a house redesign so I could get one - but it is really to late.

This gets complicated when comparing a HP hybrid to a resistance (R) hwh in our household. Based on the last 12 months, we use an average of about 150 kWh/yr of electricity for R hot water, which at a rate of $0.054/kWh = $97/yr for electricity. The Kill-O-Watt showed 6 kWh/day for the dehumidifier, and it would be used on average from Jun 15 - Sep 15, 90 days, 540 kWh/season for dehumidification, which at a rate of $0.108/kWh = $58/season. Total electricity cost = $155.00/yr.

Based on kWh of electricity used for R hot water (150/365 = 0.41 kWh/day), assuming a temp rise of 80*/gal (50 to 130F), that would take 80 btu/gal or 0.0234 kWh/gal for electricity. Daily hot water use then would be 0.41/0.0234 = 17 gal of hot water per day.

So, how much $ would be saved from a HP hybrid? Probably only a small part of the dehumidifcation, as the HP hybrid would operate minimally to provide 17 gal of hot water per day. The dehumidifier would still need to operate most of the time. I might assume the HP hybrid would save about 1/2 of the electric cost of R hot water, or about $50/yr. Total savings could be somewhat more than $50/yr.

Next comes noise and condensate drainage. The hot water heater is located in a part of the basement that we use a lot for various purposes. I'm not personally aware of the noise level, but based on noise comments, noise could be a real problem. Drainage would not be a problem as the hot water heater is located near a floor drain.

Our history of R hot water heaters is that they last in the 20 year range. I replaced one this summer after 20 years of service, not because it was leaking but because the thermostat had failed, and 20 years is a long time for a hot water heater. Replaced out of conservative caution to obviate a future failure. Cost of the replacement after utility rebate was $200. The rebate is available because the hot water heater is on the off-peak rate. I did the install my self -- very easy.

Final result: cost savings, if any, would be small. R hot water heaters are very simple and dependable appliances that last a long time with virtually no required maintenance. Element replacement is cheap and easy, if needed. Conclusion: I doubt it would make any financial sense to switch to a HP hybrid.

Forgot to mention that during Dec - April the basement temp is 50-55F, and that may make the HP hybrid not usable in HP mode but need to operate in R mode. Result, $0 savings during this period.

Jebetty
How do you know exactly how much your water heat used,you have some kind of meter hooked up to it?

I calculated hot water used based on electricity usage. We get electricity for hot water only between 11pm and 7am, and my guess is that the hot water heater only heats once during this period because we are not then using hot water. So, we start the day with hot water, use it during the day, and the hot water heater re-heats at night. The water heater is on a separate meter, so I also know the electricity used.

Cold water to the hot water heater comes from our well, estimated water temp is is 50*, and the hot water heater is set at 130*, so a temperature rise of 80*. It takes 1 btu to raise one gallon of water 1*, so 80 btus to raise 1 gal of water from 50* to 130*. 1 kWh of electricity is 3412 btus in energy. So it takes 80/3412 kWh of electricity to raise 1 gal from 50* to 130*, or 0.0234 kWh.

We use about 150 kWh/yr of electricity for hot water, or 150/365 per day = 0.41 kWh/day. If heating 1 gal takes 0.0234 kWh, then 0.41/0.0234 = number of gallons heated per day = 17.5 gallons.

Obviously, a number of assumptions here, but all pretty accurate, at least close enough to get a good estimate of hot water used. Hot water use also includes system losses as well as hot water used.

Let me know if you think this methodology is off-base or if I missed something.

I have noticed of late that while the toilets upstairs have condensed water on them because of the humidity, the basement pipes around the well tank and softener don't.

I have no idea how much hot water we use but out of the 7000 gallons the only thing that gets all cold water are the toilets. We do lots of clothes washing ,in both hot and cold ,dish washer is hot only and showers mostly hot. Id say at least half or more of the water we use is hot.

I am leaning towards this one at Home Depot
A little Romex and 2 -40 amp breakers and it is done.
My neighbor got one and loves it. When she is away there is zero cost!
http://m.homedepot.com/p/EcoSmart-24-kW-Self-Modulating-4-6-GPM-Electric-Tankless-Water-Heater-ECO-24/203316217?cm_mmc=Shopping|THD|G|0|G-BASE-PLA-D26P-WaterHeaters|&gclid=CNzIwrPn-80CFU5Zhgod8XoO0Q&gclsrc=aw.ds

A tankless heater wouldn't be my choice.

That tankless is 24000 watts!

Don2222 said:

I am leaning towards this one at Home Depot
A little Romex and 2 -40 amp breakers and it is done.
My neighbor got one and loves it. When she is away there is zero cost!
http://m.homedepot.com/p/EcoSmart-24-kW-Self-Modulating-4-6-GPM-Electric-Tankless-Water-Heater-ECO-24/203316217?cm_mmc=Shopping|THD|G|0|G-BASE-PLA-D26P-WaterHeaters|&gclid=CNzIwrPn-80CFU5Zhgod8XoO0Q&gclsrc=aw.ds

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To elaborate a bit more, you'd need three - 40 amp breakers, and a run of AWG 8 for each one. Plus the panel space & capacity for it. So that little bit of Romex can add up in a hurry when it's AWG 8 & you need to run three runs of it.

With each little flow of hot water, it's chewing up 24kw of juice. Then when the flow stops, all that heat generated in the elements & heater that hasn't made it out of the heater is lost - whereas when conventional elements have power cut to them, at least the heat goes into the water to be stored for future use. And, a conventional heater usually doesn't cut in with small flows of water.

There is very little standby loss in a conventional tank type electric water heater. If you'll be away that long, you could always turn it off.

Some of my thoughts on electric indirects...

maple1 said:

A tankless heater wouldn't be my choice.

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Only thing they save is standby loss which is not a big problem anymore.