Hire a Professional!

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seaken

seaken

Minister of Fire
Nov 21, 2005
580
Shokan, NY
www.crackermill.com
I'm sure this will not sit well many. Please hold your flames. What I am about to say is for your own good.

When you buy a house that already has a chimney in it hire a Chimney or Hearth Professional to inspect said chimney BEFORE you hook-up a wood stove to that chimney. Don't accept your house inspectors report or the real estate agent. Don't listen to your friends or members of this forum who think it "looks okay". Hire a local professional, or two, and pay them to give you their opinion. And then listen. If they are professional they will tell you the truth. They will tell you what your real estate people failed to tell you. It will cost you money to upgrade the chimney for use with a wood stove. They will offer to give you an estimate and then you will know how much it may cost. You should have been told this BEFORE you closed on the house but chimney professionals are ignored in the real estate transaction. No one wants to look at the chimney and find out it is going to cost a couple thousand dollars to repair or replace. Why are you listening to your real estate agent?

When you buy a house and plan to install a wood stove, or any other hearth product, (FIRE, repeat - FIRE!) please do yourself a favor and call the professional hearth and chimney people to inspect the chimneys BEFORE you close the deal. Would you rather find out later that your chimney was unsafe? When do you want to know that? After a fire? After carbon-monoxide poisening? After you have closed and didn't factor in the cost of chimney repairs? When?

Please give chimneys the respect they deserve. I know you will hear "it's fine". "Those chimney guys are just trying to scare you". "Take what they say with a grain of salt. After all, they are trying to sell you a chimney".

Chimneys are not simple. They are complex. It takes a lot of effort to understand them. Do you think you'll get good advice from your real-estate agent? Will the well-meaning folks on this forum be able to give you a good diagnosis over the Internet?

Call a professional.

And don't use the excuse that there are lots of crooks out there and you don't want to be taken. This forum will help you ensure that who you hire is indeed a professional. That's one of the best ways to use the Internet and forums like this. Get your advise on how to hire a professional and avoid the crooks and then do it. Your chimney needs to be physically inspected, with human eyes and a critical inspection. It will cost you a couple hundred bucks. Money well spent.

Be safe,
Sean
 
I second that emotion.

And the normal "home inspectors" are not always up to snuff with each little piece of the house. They are good for an overall look - but will usually miss details. It can cost many thousands of dollars to get a chimney back up to snuff, so why not use that as a negotiation point with the seller? After all, they advertised the house with a Wood Stove or Fireplace....shouldn't that mean one that is safe to burn?

When you consider that 3/4 or more of older installations may be out of compliance, the wisdom becomes clear.
 
+1
I bought a newer house with a 20yr old heatilator and had the unit inspected and found that the previous owners had blocked off the air cooling vent for the chimney and stuffed insulation in the airspace between the inner and outer sections of the chimney! After fixing that and sweeping out maybe 2 5 gal. pails of soot I was ready to be disappointed with its 10% efficiency :lol:
 
Good advice, Sean... just wondering - do you have a recent story that that prompted your statement?
 
I learned this one the hard way too. Just a month after I bought my house, the monsoons hit NH and we had a ton of water coming in the chimney. The home inspector had said the chimney could use a new wash, maybe some repointing, but was in good condition. The professional I hired to come repair the top of the chimney found also that the previous owner had vented a cook stove hood into the chimney flue (kitchen is opposite the room that has the fireplace). So, if I hadn't had the professional come out, I probably would have burned my house down with my first fire in the fireplace.
 
These close calls are why I say (even as a non-believer) "yes, there is a God". Or at least a "force of the universe" that often gives us a couple little warnings before dropping the big one on us.

I personally know someone whose whole family was wiped out by an oil boiler (CO poisoning). Any heaters - even non-combustion (electric) can be dangerous. One saving grace of wood heaters is that you usually get a warning in the form of smoke and smell......with oil, gas and coal you don't have that luxury. So keep those CO detectors and smoke detectors tested!
 
Funny you should post this thread because I called your store about three months ago to help me with my wood stove - and got no help! I'm a regular reader of this forum and heed the advice of "safety first".

I recently purchased a house and the existing old, pre-EPA wood stove set-up concerned me. I bought a nice second hand unit on CL, and called around to all the local hearth shops to get it installed. Your store, like every other, said they would NOT install my wood stove unless I bought it brand new from your shop.

Now, I know you're talking about inspections, not installations, but where does that leave me? So, I got reputable local chimney sweep to come clean my stack and inspect it. It was busy season and it took forever to get an appointment. Eventually, they sent a nice kid out to clean my stack. He wasn't there for anything else and I kept asking him about an inspection and if everything looked okay. He said it did to him, but I should speak to his boss. Well, I guess that's all my $175 paid for. Now, am I supposed to pay the boss again for him to take a look at it? C'mon.

Reflecting on the situation after he left, I told myself that I'll have to go to plan B. I'll read these forums and do it on my own.

Bottom line, I got a two wood stoves sitting side by side in my living room and no hearth shop in Ulster county that I could find- including Cracker Mill Hearth & Emporium in Shokan - that will connect a wood stove that they don't sell you.

What's a guy to do?
 
There is an imbalance in the marketplace. Wood burning experts have been in short supply because.....because no one wanted wood stoves! Now we have a surge in demand and the pros like Sean and chimney sweeps are pedal to the metal. In fact, Sean has been missing in action here for months because he had to get the hay in.

Although it does not help you right now, it would be nice if more people would enter the trade. Pretty good money for those willing to work hard.

I can attest that our store rarely installed stoves not bought from us - that was not to punish the buyers, but just because installation for us was a break even affair. We had retail shops and retail overhead, and there was almost no amount that we could charge which would cover all of that. The guy who has a one or two man sweep and installation business has a lot less overhead.

I think you did the right thing - got an education in the matter - which will benefit you and others. Did you try searching around on the Fireplace Institute web site:
http://www.nficertified.org/pages_consumers/consumers-1.html
 
Local chimney sweep said our old chimney (now gone) was ok, just clean. 80 yr old stack, I didn't think so. I lined it. IMHO, if you can't get a reliable inspection, clean and line it. Don't second guess safety.
 
[quote author="woodjack" date="1202964692"]Funny you should post this thread because I called your store about three months ago to help me with my wood stove - and got no help! I'm a regular reader of this forum and heed the advice of "safety first".

I recently purchased a house and the existing old, pre-EPA wood stove set-up concerned me. I bought a nice second hand unit on CL, and called around to all the local hearth shops to get it installed. Your store, like every other, said they would NOT install my wood stove unless I bought it brand new from your shop.

Now, I know you're talking about inspections, not installations, but where does that leave me? So, I got reputable local chimney sweep to come clean my stack and inspect it. It was busy season and it took forever to get an appointment. Eventually, they sent a nice kid out to clean my stack. He wasn't there for anything else and I kept asking him about an inspection and if everything looked okay. He said it did to him, but I should speak to his boss. Well, I guess that's all my $175 paid for. Now, am I supposed to pay the boss again for him to take a look at it? C'mon.

Reflecting on the situation after he left, I told myself that I'll have to go to plan B. I'll read these forums and do it on my own.

Bottom line, I got a two wood stoves sitting side by side in my living room and no hearth shop in Ulster county that I could find- including Cracker Mill Hearth & Emporium in Shokan - that will connect a wood stove that they don't sell you.

What's a guy to do
Woodjack - I'm about to get a new insert installed and my chimney sweeps are doing it. They have been cleaning chimneys for years and got into the install business after discovering lots and lots of poorly installed wood burning stoves that they had to correct ( He is a fireman too.) Anyway, you might call around to sweeps in your area and find out if they do installs and are trained and insured.

Good Luck!
Click to expand...
 
I'm in Hopkinton.
 
This is off-topic with regard to chimneys, but very much on the "get a professional inspection" topic. I bought my house in 2001 after a home inspector went over it and said everything looked OK. Five months later, during heavy rain, enough water came streaming through my basement wall to cover 5" of the entire basement floor. About 100 shop-vac loads of water and almost $10,000 later, the wall was repaired, and since then the basement has been dry. But I will never again hear rain on the roof without worrying about what's going on in the basement. If I had known right away about the problem with the basement wall, I still would have bought the place, but I could have had the repair costs deducted from the selling price.

It's a shame that the "inspectors" used for real-estate deals aren't more knowledgeable, or more honest. I'm convinced that they get pressure from the agents to hurry things along before their report jeopardizes the sale. Admittedly -- I made the mistake of not hiring my own inspector, but it this was my first home purchase.

Live and learn (hopefully from the mistakes of others).
 
Re. chimneys and Co detectors. I still have educated people swearing they can see, smell or taste any Co in the air so it's not a problem. Of course it's completely untrue and they are putting their families at risk. Just google Co and read the tragedies, all unnecessary. Now with the flu season many low dose Co poisonings go unnoticed both by the victims and the ER docs. If you feel good after leaving the house and start to feel bad upon returning beware, it may be more then feeling tired after a day of work. CO is leathal in small amounts as it builds up in your blood. Check my other post on the tragedy in Vt.
 
sixminus1 said:
It's a shame that the "inspectors" used for real-estate deals aren't more knowledgeable, or more honest. I'm convinced that they get pressure from the agents to hurry things along before their report jeopardizes the sale. Admittedly -- I made the mistake of not hiring my own inspector, but it this was my first home purchase.

Live and learn (hopefully from the mistakes of others).
Click to expand...

I'm certain there are some excellent inspectors out there, but we've been thru many purchases and it's been my experience that most home inspectors cannot really be trusted. For a newer house, fine cause its not that tough. But older ones with more possible issues - they just don't have the knowledge. I've watched them inspect houses I was selling and miss obvious problems I was certain they were going to flag. I once had the same guy who inspected a house when we bought it come in a year later when we sold it. He did different tests, missed items he caught the first time and identified as problems items that had been there before but did not catch. The last house we bought, the inspector (recommend by our agent) missed so much stuff I should have demanded a refund. Big stuff like loose wires, rotted sills, exposed outdoor electric, disconnected sump pump alarm, etc.

For the chimney and stove, we brought in the local chimney sweep who had a great reputation. He took out 3 5 gallon buckets worth of buildup out of the chimney the inspector said "looks real good."

Next time, I think I'll hire a licensed contractor who know plumbing and electric to give the house a once-over. Can't cost much more than an over-priced inspector and probably more reliable.
 
I’m certain there are some excellent inspectors out there, but we’ve been thru many purchases and it’s been my experience that most home inspectors cannot really be trusted.
Click to expand...

How true is that!
I had an experience that blew my mind once.
My Girlfriend found a house and gave an offer that was accepted contingent on home inspection. So with the Inpection scheduled I decided I would go over there and watch the goings on.
This guy walked around, clicked afew photos, made a list and called it.
Meanwhile I go into the basement. I see that it is not a full basement and proceed to find a hidden crawlspace, (under the kitchen of course). I go into this crawlspace and find the kitchen plumbing disconected with water draining onto the dirt, a whole outer foundation wall collapsed and rotted sills.
Needless to say I told her to back out of the offer and tell the home inspection service she wanted a refund for a bad inspection.

Lesson;
Home inspectors miss stuff often and are sometimes negligent.
You want something done right? Do it yourself.
 
We could compile a massive amount of complaints about poor inspections, bad installations, bad advise, pushy realtors, etc. etc. Educating yourself is the one way to ensure you are getting what you paid for, but is a very daunting task and time consuming. I find it sad that in many cases you cannot trust the advise of a said "professional." Multiple inspections are very helpful, but the cost runs up fast. And even county or city building inspectors give conflicting information depending on the day of the week you call.

This forum is great for getting multiple opinions and advise; I posted pics of a professionally newly installed, free standing wood stove on this forum and was immediately told that the stack was not tall enough and not braced. Sure enough, I checked the paperwork on the quote and found that it did indeed include more height and a brace that was not done. Luckily, an easy phone call to the installer got him back out to finish it right.

Kate b.
 
The thing is where do you stop? If you can't trust the inspector you hire then what do you do. Get separate inspections for the chimney, the dryer vent (they burn down a hell of a lot more houses than wood stoves), the foundation, the wiring, the plumbing etc. etc.
 
Keeping in mind that ANY inspector who also does work - meaning most chimney sweeps, for instance- make the vast majority of their profits off of that work. So there is, in effect, no separation of church and state. Add that to the fact that it is always easier to say "no" - meaning that erring on the side of caution is safer from a lawsuit perspective.

Don't mean to ruin anyones day, but that is the sad truth. Bottom line is that if and when you find an honest person (in any line of work), hang onto them for dear life!
 
I have a very good friend who was bouncing from job to job and needed to settle down. He decided he would go to home inspection school.
Paid his $1200 and got licensed in Maryland. A few months went by and he had not done a single inspection. I asked him why he wasn't out there pounding the pavement.
His reply: "To be honest, I wouldn't even know where to start an inspection."

Now he's a bit of a goof off - BUT, he holds a valid Md. State inspectors license.
 
BrotherBart said:
The thing is where do you stop? If you can't trust the inspector you hire then what do you do. Get separate inspections for the chimney, the dryer vent (they burn down a hell of a lot more houses than wood stoves), the foundation, the wiring, the plumbing etc. etc.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I did when I bought my house.
 
Harley said:
Good advice, Sean... just wondering - do you have a recent story that that prompted your statement?
Click to expand...

Actually, I'm always harping on this topic in one way or another. I just don't believe wood stoves and chimneys are respected enough and while they can be mechanically installed by almost any handy DIYer, the safety and other more complex aspects of these systems make them poor candidates for DIYer's. If one is going to do the job themselves they should at least hire a chimney professional to do a safety inspection and then listen to their advise and pay them. If possible, purchasing something from the honest chimney professional will help keep them in the loop. They are your best bet for a safe install and safe repairs.

Specifically, there was another post from someone who recently purchased a house that had a free-standing fireplace and chimney previously installed. They hooked up a new wood stove to it and are now asking questions about the clearances for the chimney, etc. This is backwards. Why are people hooking up wood stoves to chimneys that they do not know anything about? The safety issues are complex and not understood by the common home inspectors or most homeowners.
 
woodjack said:
Funny you should post this thread because I called your store about three months ago to help me with my wood stove - and got no help! I'm a regular reader of this forum and heed the advice of "safety first".

I recently purchased a house and the existing old, pre-EPA wood stove set-up concerned me. I bought a nice second hand unit on CL, and called around to all the local hearth shops to get it installed. Your store, like every other, said they would NOT install my wood stove unless I bought it brand new from your shop.

Now, I know you're talking about inspections, not installations, but where does that leave me? So, I got reputable local chimney sweep to come clean my stack and inspect it. It was busy season and it took forever to get an appointment. Eventually, they sent a nice kid out to clean my stack. He wasn't there for anything else and I kept asking him about an inspection and if everything looked okay. He said it did to him, but I should speak to his boss. Well, I guess that's all my $175 paid for. Now, am I supposed to pay the boss again for him to take a look at it? C'mon.

Reflecting on the situation after he left, I told myself that I'll have to go to plan B. I'll read these forums and do it on my own.

Bottom line, I got a two wood stoves sitting side by side in my living room and no hearth shop in Ulster county that I could find- including Cracker Mill Hearth & Emporium in Shokan - that will connect a wood stove that they don't sell you.

What's a guy to do?
Click to expand...

Woodjack, I apologize on behalf of our entire industry. This has been, and will continue to be, a problem for consumers. As Craig already alluded to, we simple do not have enough general practitioners in every area of the country. In our case, we have few qualified professional chimney sweeps that you can call to help you with your private purchases. And the sweeps we do have are over worked when the "season" hits. In an ideal world you would be able to get what you need from the chimney sweep community. In your case, where you already own your stove, you need the help of a general chimney professional - a sweep. Most sweeps do not care what brand of stove you have, in a similar manner to electricians and plumbers who provide you with labor only.

And yes, this post is about inspections at the time of sale of a home, and not general installation issues. Where does this leave you? Unfortunately, you took yourself out of our service loop when you purchased your second hand stove off of CraigsList. We do not install and service stoves that we do not sell. Like most dealers, we invest a considerable amount of money in a showroom and a trained crew to support a select number of brands. This is similar to how automobiles are sold and serviced. If you did not buy your car from your local dealer they are under no obligation to take your car on if is is not their brand. (A ford dealer will not usually accept your job if you are driving an Audi or Mercedes, etc.) This actually assists our stove owners in getting better service from a trained company who knows their product. But, it doesn't help the folks who choose to buy brands that are not represented by a local dealership and service center. These folks need a competent local general shop, who supplies labor only and is not invested in a particular brand. In our industry this service is typically supplied by chimney sweeps.

Now, after all of that, I will tell you that we do service and install some stoves we do not sell - on a case by case basis, based on the merits of the case and not the brand involved. This is unusual in our industry and it is limited. We typically will not have the time to take on these cases in the middle of our season. In our season we are very busy taking care of our own customers who expect superior service when they decide to buy one of our brands and hire us to install it. Once this "season" dies down, typically by mid-March, we will take on more general chimney sweep jobs. If you don't have your job completed by then you can contact me and I will be happy to discuss your situation and see if I can help.

Finally, with respect to inspections, we do offer an inspection only service that is intended for customers who are involved in the transfer of property. This service includes a written report, and, if requested, an estimate of repairs. The cost is approximately $200 and is non-refundable. If you ask for this type of service we will be able to help you. However, many times during the season we are responding to installation requests and it is not often clearly communicated that an inspection only service is being requested. Most people who are calling are interested in hiring us for labor only, which is a service we do not offer. We could do a better job of communicating the option to have a qualified chimney professional do an inspection for a fee. I am working on this in my shop right now, that is, better communication. In the future we will be doing a better job of communicating our service options over the phone and over the counter.
 
I'll be the first to admit that it is difficult, if not impossible, to locate a true chimney professional in some localities. Unfortunately, many who claim to be professional chimney sweeps are not very "professional" in their comportment, or even in their knowledge. As has been discussed above, many who would claim to be able to inspect your chimney are not worth hiring. How do ensure that you get a good inspection?

Well, even some not-so-professional types can be directed by a smart homeowner if they know how to ask the right questions and are willing to put up with some irritation. If you are lucky enough to have a true professional in town you will be able to skip the irritation part. I would start by searching the CSIA database of certified chimney sweeps by zip code. Or, if you need more than chimney service (such as a new appliance or help with remodeling decor, etc.) check out the list of NFI certified hearth professional at the HPBA web site.

Use the following links for your search for a local company:
http://www.csia.org/
http://www.hpba.org/

Next, I would suggest asking the following questions, or something similar, to help ensure you are working with a true professional. A true professional will not have any problems with any of these types of questions. A true professional is more interested in solving your problem than they are in impressing you with their knowledge or skills. But even if you get a guy who is abrasive or a self-absorbed jerk, you may be able to get viable answers and results. These type of questions help cut through the posturing and get to the heart of the matter. Your chimney is either safe or not. There are clear standards already in place for making this determination. Any hearth or chimney professional should be able to properly apply the existing codes. Here we go:

Can you tell me if this chimney is installed in compliance to all applicable safety codes for chimney construction and for use with a wood stove?

If the answer is "yes, it is constructed to code", what proof can you provide me? I want to be reasonably certain that I will have a safe installation for my wood stove and I need to prove that level of safety to my insurance company.

If the answer is "no, not to code", what, if anything, can be done to correct the code defects and bring the existing chimney into compliance with accepted safety codes? Can you provide proof that the methods suggested for repairs will meet or exceed current safety codes for wood stove installations?

If this chimney needs repair, or replacement, can your company complete all the work or will you hire a sub-contractor? Can you provide proof of competence for your company and any of your sub-contractors? Can you provide proof of insurance and compliance with any local licensing requirements?

Will your company take full responsibility for final inspections and ensure that your work will finally pass all applicable codes and meet the requirements of the local authority having jurisdiction?

Again, if your chimney "professional" is uncomfortable with any of these questions, or cannot answer in the affirmative and produce the proof you need, you should not pay him and move on to the next guy. Yes, you may have to do a lot of sorting and it may take awhile before you find the right company. And, once you find a good company you may have to wait for them. But how much of a wait is worth it to ensure you have a safe chimney? What sense does it make to trust an inspector who is ignorant about your chimney needs but is willing to get it done fast? My advice - figure out a way to wait for the good guy. Don't rush it.
 
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