Hello again here ....I have to ask the age old question. I keep reading posts that indicate that gasifiaction boilers require a good bit of attention on a daily basis. I have to admit this is a little scary to me .....how many of you feel that although you love getting away from paying for fossil fuel ...you still like feel like somewhat of a slave to these things? Also, I know about the various techniques to prevent freezing if you have to leave the unit for a length of time. What is the most commonly used method for everyone? I definitely have two separate weeks during the winter when I will have to leave the unit unattended and use my backup heat. Are these things only for those who never leave home without them during the cold months? Thanks, RH
Boiler daily attention
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Redox
Minister of Fire
jebatty
Minister of Fire
I lite it and forget it. Takes 5-10 minutes to start, load and walk away. As to freeze protection, mine is installed in a heated space with backup heat, so when (if) we're gone for an extended period, the backup heat takes care of the freeze protection.
Eric Johnson
Mod Emeritus
Like any woodburning appliance, you have to tend it once or twice a day. So it's more work than fossil fuel, no question about that. There is a certain amount of satisfaction to be gained by controlling your heat supply and costs, however.
Keeping your boiler system from freezing up when you're away is not a huge problem. There are a number of different approaches. If you have a backup heat source, I'd think about diverting a small amount of the heat from it into your wood-fired boiler to keep it at a reasonable temp. Crack a valve and run a circ continuously is one idea. Glycol is another. Heat tape is another. In a well insulated room, the boiler should hold its temp well above freezing for longer than one week. Etc.
Keeping your boiler system from freezing up when you're away is not a huge problem. There are a number of different approaches. If you have a backup heat source, I'd think about diverting a small amount of the heat from it into your wood-fired boiler to keep it at a reasonable temp. Crack a valve and run a circ continuously is one idea. Glycol is another. Heat tape is another. In a well insulated room, the boiler should hold its temp well above freezing for longer than one week. Etc.
Rick Stanley
Feeling the Heat
Headrc,
I have considered the tending of a boiler in trying to design a system here. There IS a lot to consider. It makes me dizzy and I'm already a wood burner (3 small stoves). What building to put it in? What kind of storage? Underground piping concerns? I'm trying to think it all through, as advised by senior members here, before making a move. The tending of the boiler has challenges different than a wood stove. I guess lack of flexibility is one way to put it. With a stove in my living room, I can stop burning during a warm spell, for example. I can conserve wood for high demand times. Sometimes I try to picture using $4/gal oil to keep my 2000gal storage/Garn from freezing if suddenly my back acts up and I don't get enough wood cut to last the whole season. I don't like the looks of that. What do I do? Drain the thing every time? With a stove, it just seems like you can start and stop using it at will.
I'm sure there's an affordable way to handle that and I'll probably figure it out. But it is something to consider. If I can't figure a way to not HAVE to cut enough wood every single year forever without the thing freezing up, rusting out, springing leaks from intermitten use or something, I ain't doin' it. If you consider that most folks in this news group advocate burning full-time all of the time, for the good of the boiler if nothing else, that could sound a little like slavery, as you said. Especially if you have had rotator cuff repairs done on both shoulders and have a couple bulging lumbar discs as I do. I want this boiler idea to make burning wood BETTER for me than it is now and I'm sure with the help of this forum, I and you will figure it out.
Keep in mind that the level of commitment in the Boiler Room is pretty high. To these guys, it's a cause. To me, it's more of a practical matter.
Rick
I have considered the tending of a boiler in trying to design a system here. There IS a lot to consider. It makes me dizzy and I'm already a wood burner (3 small stoves). What building to put it in? What kind of storage? Underground piping concerns? I'm trying to think it all through, as advised by senior members here, before making a move. The tending of the boiler has challenges different than a wood stove. I guess lack of flexibility is one way to put it. With a stove in my living room, I can stop burning during a warm spell, for example. I can conserve wood for high demand times. Sometimes I try to picture using $4/gal oil to keep my 2000gal storage/Garn from freezing if suddenly my back acts up and I don't get enough wood cut to last the whole season. I don't like the looks of that. What do I do? Drain the thing every time? With a stove, it just seems like you can start and stop using it at will.
I'm sure there's an affordable way to handle that and I'll probably figure it out. But it is something to consider. If I can't figure a way to not HAVE to cut enough wood every single year forever without the thing freezing up, rusting out, springing leaks from intermitten use or something, I ain't doin' it. If you consider that most folks in this news group advocate burning full-time all of the time, for the good of the boiler if nothing else, that could sound a little like slavery, as you said. Especially if you have had rotator cuff repairs done on both shoulders and have a couple bulging lumbar discs as I do. I want this boiler idea to make burning wood BETTER for me than it is now and I'm sure with the help of this forum, I and you will figure it out.
Keep in mind that the level of commitment in the Boiler Room is pretty high. To these guys, it's a cause. To me, it's more of a practical matter.
Rick
ebbci05
New Member
Headrc and Ricks,
I just installed a econoburn this winter. Like you said, I felt I was a slave to it during the first couple months. Checking it constantly and having to come home a few times on my lunch hour to start or fill it. This was due to using wet wood. My boiler wouldn't heat up my water and so I couldn't use my storage. This lead to many headaches and long nights. But since I got a load of dry wood 10-20% it has been a lot better. I can put a load in and it will heat my storage and then I can use that for a while also. So I know that it can go either way, slave or not. My suggestions would be to make sure you have DRY wood first of all and then make sure you have enough storage that you can get more time inbetween burns. I put in 512 gal. of storage and am finding out that it was minimal. Could use double that and have a lot more time inbetween burns. Also, as far as making sure your water doesn't freeze, my opinion(not a professional just my thoughts) if you add antifreeze to the system you will be all set. Depending on your system and storage this can be expensive from what I am told. In a garn you have 2000 gallons that would need to be treated. On mine, I have a closed system so I could get away with only treating 30 gal. I have enough friends and family around that I decided not to treat mine because if we go away, usually one of them is willing and able to fire the boiler when needed. Like just about everybody will say on here, it does take a while to figure out how to burn and when to burn to get everything working right, but once you get that they are pretty easy. Since I have good wood I am just starting to figure out when to light my fire so that I can use all of my storage up and then light another just before bed. Come a long ways since Jan-08. and still have some tweaking to do and adjustments to my system but it is working a lot better and I am getting more happy with it.
I just installed a econoburn this winter. Like you said, I felt I was a slave to it during the first couple months. Checking it constantly and having to come home a few times on my lunch hour to start or fill it. This was due to using wet wood. My boiler wouldn't heat up my water and so I couldn't use my storage. This lead to many headaches and long nights. But since I got a load of dry wood 10-20% it has been a lot better. I can put a load in and it will heat my storage and then I can use that for a while also. So I know that it can go either way, slave or not. My suggestions would be to make sure you have DRY wood first of all and then make sure you have enough storage that you can get more time inbetween burns. I put in 512 gal. of storage and am finding out that it was minimal. Could use double that and have a lot more time inbetween burns. Also, as far as making sure your water doesn't freeze, my opinion(not a professional just my thoughts) if you add antifreeze to the system you will be all set. Depending on your system and storage this can be expensive from what I am told. In a garn you have 2000 gallons that would need to be treated. On mine, I have a closed system so I could get away with only treating 30 gal. I have enough friends and family around that I decided not to treat mine because if we go away, usually one of them is willing and able to fire the boiler when needed. Like just about everybody will say on here, it does take a while to figure out how to burn and when to burn to get everything working right, but once you get that they are pretty easy. Since I have good wood I am just starting to figure out when to light my fire so that I can use all of my storage up and then light another just before bed. Come a long ways since Jan-08. and still have some tweaking to do and adjustments to my system but it is working a lot better and I am getting more happy with it.
Eric Johnson
Mod Emeritus
Like any other wood burner, you figure out what works best for you and make the thing work. Personally, having used many wood stoves over the years, they're a lot more work than a boiler, once you get it up and running like I just said. In my case, all the wood, mess, smoke, etc. is out in the barn. I worry less about the barn burning down than I do my house, and it's a lot easier to keep the whole house at the right temp.
That said, boilers and furnaces do use more wood over the course of a heating season than a stove, though I'd guess with three stoves to fill, you know something about wood production and inventory. As you've probably noticed, most of the people in the Boiler Room are looking for ways to become more efficient. Nofossil, heating his 3,000+ home, DHW and hot tub in northern Vermont with less than 4 full cords per winter is kind of what we all aspire to. I'm confident that with that kind of knowledge and experience represented here, a lot more of us will figure out how to burn a lot less wood down the line.
Freeze ups are something that I worried a lot about when planning my system as well. Actually, it's never been an issue for me or anyone else around here that I'm aware of. It would be a tragedy to have a 1,500-gallon Garn freeze up, but do you know how long it would take 1,500 gallons at 190 degrees in a reasonably well insulated enclosure to get down to 32 degrees? I'm guessing weeks under normal winter conditions. I think the reality on that is that the fear greatly exceeds the risk.
That said, boilers and furnaces do use more wood over the course of a heating season than a stove, though I'd guess with three stoves to fill, you know something about wood production and inventory. As you've probably noticed, most of the people in the Boiler Room are looking for ways to become more efficient. Nofossil, heating his 3,000+ home, DHW and hot tub in northern Vermont with less than 4 full cords per winter is kind of what we all aspire to. I'm confident that with that kind of knowledge and experience represented here, a lot more of us will figure out how to burn a lot less wood down the line.
Freeze ups are something that I worried a lot about when planning my system as well. Actually, it's never been an issue for me or anyone else around here that I'm aware of. It would be a tragedy to have a 1,500-gallon Garn freeze up, but do you know how long it would take 1,500 gallons at 190 degrees in a reasonably well insulated enclosure to get down to 32 degrees? I'm guessing weeks under normal winter conditions. I think the reality on that is that the fear greatly exceeds the risk.
I too have had rotator cuff surgery etc. ....no back problems thank God though ...and over for the last 8 years I have rehabbed a 120 acre farm complete from total rehab of farm house to replacing all the fencing and doing a lot of sculpting of land ....I am not one to shy away from work. I also have a lot of experence with high tech equipment so I feel I would and could figure out the process of managing a boiler ....the question of course is if I want to . I WANT TO EMPHASIZE THAT I TOO LIKE THE IDEA OF GETTING AWAY FROM FOSSIL FUEL ....but at this stage in life I want to start enjoying the fruits of my labor ....and not necessarily increase my labor. I do have time that I had been spending on the rehab of the farm that will not be required now ....so it is possible that I will not be increasing my labor. I am happy to say that now my farm is more or less in a maintenance stage ...and sometimes that can be time consuming but not all the time.
If the boiler is something that will basically take a winter to get my process down and then it is just a matter of following a good fire management procedure than I am interested ....but if it is a constant tweeking that never ends......than I will continue with the fossil fuel approach. Added to this is the fact that it will take 7-8 years for payback on this system ....and a lot can happen in that timeframe. For us folks that are a little older we have to consider if we will be able to continue feeding this thing for the duration of its life.
Regarding the anti-freeze ....correct me if I am wrong but if you have a storage tank ....you actually have to put enough anti-freeze in the system to cover and the water lines in your hosue as well ...right? That is a lot of anti-freeze ....and more $$$ to have to justify the system. The building that I would put this in will be insulated as well ...and it could also have backup heat ...so I gather from this discussion that this will solve my problem? What about the water in the lines ..... I assume that that is no different than your regular water lines for a house ...insulate well and you are safe?
Thx again,
RH
If the boiler is something that will basically take a winter to get my process down and then it is just a matter of following a good fire management procedure than I am interested ....but if it is a constant tweeking that never ends......than I will continue with the fossil fuel approach. Added to this is the fact that it will take 7-8 years for payback on this system ....and a lot can happen in that timeframe. For us folks that are a little older we have to consider if we will be able to continue feeding this thing for the duration of its life.
Regarding the anti-freeze ....correct me if I am wrong but if you have a storage tank ....you actually have to put enough anti-freeze in the system to cover and the water lines in your hosue as well ...right? That is a lot of anti-freeze ....and more $$$ to have to justify the system. The building that I would put this in will be insulated as well ...and it could also have backup heat ...so I gather from this discussion that this will solve my problem? What about the water in the lines ..... I assume that that is no different than your regular water lines for a house ...insulate well and you are safe?
Thx again,
RH
Eric Johnson
Mod Emeritus
It certainly won't take a whole winter to get the hang of operating any boiler--gasifier or otherwise. The main thing is to have dry wood. Once you have that, everything else becomes a lot easier.
No need to tinker with a well-operating boiler setup if you don't want to. Basically, it's just a matter of feeding it wood as needed and getting on with your day. As I said, easier than a woodstove, since you don't have to worry about overheating the house or forgetting about it and freezing.
Bear in mind that fossil fuel prices are not likely to come down. Factor in the savings over time of also producing all your domestic hot water. Consider that if you grow your own wood, then you control your fuel supply, price and quality--not somebody else. Contemplate the advantage of being able to keep your house as warm as you like, regardless of the price of oil. Nobody burning oil or gas is going to set their thermostat higher than 70 degrees, regardless. I can assure you that domestic harmony is enhanced by low utility bills and a warm living environment.
I don't recommend using glycol. There are much cheaper/easier ways to get the job done.
No need to tinker with a well-operating boiler setup if you don't want to. Basically, it's just a matter of feeding it wood as needed and getting on with your day. As I said, easier than a woodstove, since you don't have to worry about overheating the house or forgetting about it and freezing.
Bear in mind that fossil fuel prices are not likely to come down. Factor in the savings over time of also producing all your domestic hot water. Consider that if you grow your own wood, then you control your fuel supply, price and quality--not somebody else. Contemplate the advantage of being able to keep your house as warm as you like, regardless of the price of oil. Nobody burning oil or gas is going to set their thermostat higher than 70 degrees, regardless. I can assure you that domestic harmony is enhanced by low utility bills and a warm living environment.
I don't recommend using glycol. There are much cheaper/easier ways to get the job done.
If I do this ....because of current demands on my time from family obligations as well as actually putting the system in ....I believe I will go out and buy 3 cords of cut split hardwood and put it up for my first year ....then after I get over my spring obligations I will start cutting and stacking my own wood for the following year. I am sure that whatever I can buy locally will be freshly cut so it will only have about six months for drying .... but again ...I am in Tennessee and I know about drying wood ...since I also have a sawmill .....so I believe I can get myself some decent wood for next winter to answer this need.
Of course ...once again that adds to the cost of the system ....probably $500-600 for the first year of operation ....which is 30-40% of what I am spending on fossil fuel right now but it does increase total cost and lengthens the payback time. My average for propane has increased yearly for the last seven years ....and I have factored that increase into the payback period for the system. It will still take 7-8 years to pay for it. And that is dependent on propane having the same average increase per year ...which nobody knows what will happen. One thing to think about ...everyone feels that the price of fossil fuel will keep going up ....and never go down. That is an open question that I don't think can be answered except for by my maker ....but I think the safest way to justify these things is to use the average over my last 7-8 years for the price of propane. There have actually been a couple of years where it went down a little rather than up.
RH
Of course ...once again that adds to the cost of the system ....probably $500-600 for the first year of operation ....which is 30-40% of what I am spending on fossil fuel right now but it does increase total cost and lengthens the payback time. My average for propane has increased yearly for the last seven years ....and I have factored that increase into the payback period for the system. It will still take 7-8 years to pay for it. And that is dependent on propane having the same average increase per year ...which nobody knows what will happen. One thing to think about ...everyone feels that the price of fossil fuel will keep going up ....and never go down. That is an open question that I don't think can be answered except for by my maker ....but I think the safest way to justify these things is to use the average over my last 7-8 years for the price of propane. There have actually been a couple of years where it went down a little rather than up.
RH
Eric Johnson
Mod Emeritus
Everybody obviously has their own situation and needs, and you're in the best position to determine that. About all I (we) can do is answer your questions as honestly as possible.
I will say that in my experience, I've usually regretted putting off big investments (dental work, planting perennials and efficiency improvements come to mind) waiting to see what the future brings. Usually more of the same, leaving me wishing I'd bit the bullet.
I will say that in my experience, I've usually regretted putting off big investments (dental work, planting perennials and efficiency improvements come to mind) waiting to see what the future brings. Usually more of the same, leaving me wishing I'd bit the bullet.
I concur again ...although I have made some other decisions in life that were supposed to smart ...and did not work out.
I have another question though ....how loud are these boilers? I do have a sound issue for this new building that I want to be careful of ...
Thx again for being so helpful.
RH
I have another question though ....how loud are these boilers? I do have a sound issue for this new building that I want to be careful of ...
Thx again for being so helpful.
RH
Eric Johnson
Mod Emeritus
My advice to investors is to follow me around and see which stocks I buy--then short 'em, because they're pretty much guaranteed to go down. But according to my wife, the boiler has already paid for itself--and she has to tend it when I'm not around.
My EKO, which has two blowers, doesn't make much noise. Probably about as much as a noisy bathroom fan. Not sure if it would be a problem in the basement, but probably not. It makes about as much noise as my old oil burner, which was in the basement.
I can't speak to any of the other brands, though the natural draft rigs like the Seton/Greenwood don't have fans, so I'm guessing they don't make much noise at all. And the blowers are about the only moving parts on these boilers, other than the circulators, which make little or no noise.
My EKO, which has two blowers, doesn't make much noise. Probably about as much as a noisy bathroom fan. Not sure if it would be a problem in the basement, but probably not. It makes about as much noise as my old oil burner, which was in the basement.
I can't speak to any of the other brands, though the natural draft rigs like the Seton/Greenwood don't have fans, so I'm guessing they don't make much noise at all. And the blowers are about the only moving parts on these boilers, other than the circulators, which make little or no noise.
For anyone doing the math on converting to home cut wood heat/DHW, I'd consider that gasoline in London was 9 US$/gal this Feb '08. when I was there. US gas and oil at whatever number you are considering isn't going to last.
Al
Al
ebbci05
New Member
my econoburn is probably about the same as Eric's. Mine only has one fan and it too is about as loud as a standard bath fan. As far as the rest of the system, pumps etc. they are about silent. About the only time you might get some noise is if you get some air in your system, but that is easy to take care of. hope this helps and good luck
jebatty
Minister of Fire
Nofossil
Moderator Emeritus
My 'tending' schedule is something like this:
1) Build and light the fire (5 minutes)
2) Wait six minutes, then close damper and turn on controller (10 seconds)
3) Wait about an hour, fill with wood. (2 minutes)
4) If needed, refill after 4-5 hours (2 minutes)
If it's not too cold, that will charge my storage enough to carry me for two days. Otherwise, this is the daily routine.
My boiler is in my basement, and I have automatic changeover from wood to storage to oil backup.
About once a week I clean out the ashes, and twice a year I clean the heat exchanger tubes.
1) Build and light the fire (5 minutes)
2) Wait six minutes, then close damper and turn on controller (10 seconds)
3) Wait about an hour, fill with wood. (2 minutes)
4) If needed, refill after 4-5 hours (2 minutes)
If it's not too cold, that will charge my storage enough to carry me for two days. Otherwise, this is the daily routine.
My boiler is in my basement, and I have automatic changeover from wood to storage to oil backup.
About once a week I clean out the ashes, and twice a year I clean the heat exchanger tubes.
lawandorder
Member
if you have an oil backup system for a gasifier do you still have to worry about going away for a few days and not being able to tend to the stove??? I am contemplating adding an EKO outside in an outbuiding or attached to the garage, to go along with the oil backup and woodstove in the living room but i also have a hectic schedule with two young kids, etc.. Holidays and vacations in the winter might cause a problem if the system need s to be tended to. WHat to dooooo.... I am finding the more I research this the more questions i end up with.......
Eric Johnson
Mod Emeritus
You can set it up to do whatever you want. In my case, I have a gas-fired boiler that I shut down during the heating season and only fire up when I'm going to be away in the winter. But you can certainly set your system up, like nofossil has, so that both boilers can interact and carry the load as needed. It's just a matter of piping and controls. If you're worried about the gasifier and its piping freezing up, it's not a big deal to design around that as well. One easy solution is to circulate a small amount of oil-heated water through the wood side when it's going to sit untended for extended periods--just enough to keep everything comfortably above freezing. With good insulation, it's not going to run up your oil or gas bill appreciably. Cheap insurance in any event. I think a modern gasifier in a well-insulated boiler room will retain heat for days, if not weeks, after the last fire goes out.
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