Pellet Boilers.... Where are you????

How about the Tarm Pellet boiler - from right there in NH - top of the line unit from maker with 100 years of experience......

UL does not, to my knowledge, rate anything....they do "list" certain products, but not pellet boilers. These are too niche of a product for a standard to be fully developed here. That's my guess!

Sounds like you have plenty to choose from - my typical advice is to buy from a manufacturer who has been in business for a while, so as to assure longevity, parts and service.

A belated welcome to the Boiler Room, Mack.

I think pellets are a great way to go if you don't mind seeing their price closely track that of heating oil. I'm hopeful that someday we'll have a pellet distribution infrastructure in this country that will make what you're trying to do commonplace, and really give fossil fuels some competition in the marketplace.

Living in Southern NH......at this point at least - you can get bulk delivery from NEWP. That helps a lot.

Also, with Pelletsales.com operating out of Manchester, it should be pretty easy to get competitive prices there also.

Of course, one or two suppliers does not make a perfect market, but it certainly helps!

On pellet boilers, look for a Warnock Hersey listing, which is similar to UL (just a different company, doing the same thing).

Joe

Mack the Knife, you posted several boiler models. I'm also interested in converting to a pellet boiler (from a OWB Taylor, aka, smoke maker). However I would like one that has an auto start feature, unlike the Tarm which requires a human to light the pellets, then it "idles" after temps are reached. What units have you found that fit this category?

Maineenergysystems.com just added a Janfire unit that it is promoting in New England… Are you sitting down?? for just $12,500.00..

Click to expand...

Actual price of boiler starts @ $8100.00. $12,500 is ballpark for bulk storage ,auger to boiler, boiler, super store for DHW and pro installation. Price will vary with differing installs.Pro install only.If our dollar was in shorter supply on the world market it would be worth more against foreign currencies and the Euro boilers would be cost competitive.But they might not even come over then. Just priced a Harman PB 150 out today, $6300.00 plus $210 for DHW coil. Self installable if able. Can be wall vented due to power vent. Demand is thru the roof. Has anyone priced out a gas or oil Euro boiler lately ? Their technology is years ahead of us due to their longer higher energy prices. The Euros have a whole different approach to engineering than us yanks.

Will

My wife thought I was crazy

Click to expand...

My wife knows I am crazy and ready to have me committed for observation due to my infatuation with not wanting to pay $4 + who knows what for oil this coming winter. I don't think I'm getting any + WAF at all. I would die as a salesman on straight commission. Give Maine Energy a call. Be prepared for a green salesman.
Will

hey mac the knife

I'm in the same situation like you, looking for the right deal getting a wood pellet boiler????? you mentioned the Froeling P2 boiler and it's arrival in summer, which company is distributing it here in the U.S.? do you have a name, phone number or email?

do you have a name, phone number or email?

Click to expand...

Heres an email reply I got from Froling. Maybe you will get more info than I did.

Dear Sir,



thank you for your recent inquiry on Froling wood boilers.

Froling is the biggest manufacturer of biomass boilers in Europe and we have been expanding quickly over the last decades.



Now, we are about to prepare our products for the North American market.

Froling boilers will be available in the United States and Canada within the next months, beginning second half of the year 2008.

We will keep your contact and inform you as soon as we have any news.



Kind Regards



Werner Emhofer



Mag. Werner Emhofer

Bereichsleiter Export / sales area manager

------------------------

Fröling Heizkessel- und Behälterbau Ges.m.b.H.
Industriestrasse 12
A-4710 Grieskirchen

Tel. +43 7248/606-2400 Email: [email protected]

Fax. +43 7248/606-600 Internet: http://www.froeling.com

Mack,

You're approaching a pellet boiler purchase with that good ol American mindset, looking at the bottom line instead of looking at what you're getting for your money. To clasiify European manufacturers as crooks because their product is thousands more than the stuff you've been looking at is short sighted on your part. Their products are thousands more for a reason. European manufacturers have been way ahead of the curve for decades & their boilers have a proven track record.

The saying you get what you pay for has never been truer than when it comes to renewable energy products.....

Bob

Hi Willman,
What are you using for a pellet boiler or do you have one?

Click to expand...

Hi Mack,I do not currently have a pellet boiler. I have looked at the Harman so far. Will take a look at the Pinnacle (Traeger) and the Bosch.
Will now check out the Genesis you mention in another post. My interest in the Froling is piqued by it being able to convert to round wood for fuel.I can possibly hedge my energy bet as well as insure my aging in place with it. Might not be able to work up wood in 10/15 years or so. Who knows though.
As far a cost of Euro technology goes. IMHO they are many years ahead of US in solid or pellet fuel burning. This is due to many reasons. This being said the cost would be less if our $ was not way down against the Euro, pound, etc. This is another reason why they cost more. Who is to blame for this is a topic for the Ash can. Check out the value of the buck against the Euro. If it was closely matched the price wouldn't be an issue. OTOH due to the extremely favorable (to them) exchange rate more of the Euro burning technology is starting to come over.It wasn't worth it to some of them in the past. Just think how much these units will cost next year.
A comparison would be a Mercedes / BMW versus an American car. They will get one from point a to b, but the Euro cars in some aspects excel over the US cars.
Will

I just can't see how pellet boilers in the long run will save a lot of money (assumoing that is your goal). I can't produce wood pellets any easier than producing my own oil - I can produce my own firewood, so in the long run that was a much better choice for me.

There is a huge amount of oil distributors, but that really hasn't kept the price down; more pellet distributors won't either. I agree with the other poster who said pellet prices will roughly track the price of oil.

hey guys
good to know that a bunch of other guys is struggeling to look into alternative fuel heating as well, Mack how the heck can you enjoy this mass? I feel more frustrated than enjoying this endeavour, for the same reason you mentoined: just a few companies offering that technology (pellet/corn boiler) here in the U.S. and when you compare their technology to the European products than they are 10-15 years behind. the Europeans either not marketing in the U.S. or are very expensive for various reasons. after extensive research just like you guys it looks like the best units are TARM (very expensive as well), Pinnacle/Traeger (did anybody get a quote?), the Bosch/Janfire (from maineenergysystems, but they just starting their program and who knows when they starting to cover NH and MA???). has anybody checked out the Orlan pellet boiler? any quotes?h
the European products looking great and their cost are probably worth the money, any concerns that their technology is so advanced (electronics) that the installation and service might be a probelm here in the U.S.? has anybody checked out the VITOLEG 300 from Viessman (established in the U.S. for oil and gas boilers) and it's availability her in the U.S.?
hearing about the rising costs for wood pellets, I start wondering if switching from oil to wood pellet really will be as cost saving as it is promised now??? we might find as back in the same situation like now that the they continue to rise the costs for the wood pellets because of demand and porpularity and we again spending thausends of dollars for keeping our house warm??

Less work, no need for storage, metered burn. I have a woodlot too, but if I didn't, I'd buy a pellet boiler in a second. I think it's the way wood burning is headed.

After burning wood for over 40 plus years I purchased a Harman pb105 pellet boiler to heat my home and to supply hot water. I installed it in March, it's been running around 7 weeks now, I really like it but....... it does have an issue with the combustion blower never shutting off. The combustion blower has to shut off, running all the time sends the heat from the boiler water that was just heated out the stack. I have been working with the dealer and the Harman Co. to resolve this. The controller and the thermistor probe have been changed, thinking that maybe one of these was the problem. IMO, the thermistor probe is the problem. I say this because the rating of this is 90 degrees, meaning that the combustion blower will not shut down until stack temp reaches 90 degrees. This will never happen with the low temp setting of the boiler set at 150 degrees, the boiler fires up before the stack temp reaches 90 degrees.

The cost of pellets has increased, easy to calculate why, the cost of fuel for trucking pellets ( or anything) has increased so this must be passed on to the consumer.

Pellet and boiler thoughts..........aimed at no one in particular and everyone in general.

I think that you are going to see more of the large timber producing companies get into pellet production. Georgia Pacific has a large plant here that used to make OSB but is currently being converted to pellet manufacturing. (No demand for OSB around here as there is virtually nothing happening in the construction market) The initial capacity of the plant is supposedly 80 tons /day with the capability to hit somewhere over 500 if demand warrants. If that happens in other locations, I think we'll see the price stabilize around $200/ton at retail. That assumption is based on what forestry operators around here tell me they need to break even per ton of chips produced, plus GP's manufacturing costs, transportation and retail mark up. Just a WAG but I would say it's probably close. The major variable in that picture is the fuel cost related to harvesting and processing the wood into pellets.

Comparing the pellet boilers available here now to those made by Froeling, Viessmann and other European manufacturers is hardly valid. Saying it's like Chevy and Mercedes is off base too, more like a Model T to a present day auto. The features and benefits are on a completely different scale with the better brands of European made pellet equipment. Some of you have questioned how they get a Lambda sensor to work in a wood fired flue gas environment and it's pretty simple really. The sensor can work because it's there in the first place, controlling combustion to the point where it is not in danger of perishing itself and keeping the boiler at peak performance 24/7/365. Without the sensor, corresponding controls and mechanisms controlling combustion, you simply have a box burning wood. BTW, why would you use the boiler for only part of the year? Maximize your investment and use it to heat your domestic hot water year round. The more automated pellet boilers will do that easily.

Does it cost more? You Betcha!! I'm guessing you'll see a boiler like the Froeling or Viessmann hit the market at $10-12K. They are so automated that if you give them a continuously available fuel supply, they require no more interaction than a gas or oil boiler. Annual service plus cleaning the ashes out maybe 2-3 times per year. The question is not how much does it cost but rather what do you want your boiler to do? If you can live with having to fill it, clean it, adjust the combustion when you get a new load of pellets, then by all means buy any brand of "manually operated" boiler currently out there and save yourself $3-5K. If burning fewer tons of pellets, less interaction with the boiler, (think WAF here) and long trouble free operation mean something to you then maybe you better wait and see what comes across the pond. If your fuel bill is in the$600-$1000 per month category through mid winter, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that even at a $12K initial investment, the return is pretty darn quick. What else can you buy right now that will pay for itself within 4-5 years. What kind of return did you get on your last vehicle? Or that TV you bought? Don't be penny wise and pound foolish. It's better to spend a little more and have something that you are satisfied with than spend less up front and wind up chucking it within 5 years because you're tired of the hassle.

Do pellets make sense in the first place? Let's compare costs and see. ..... Pellets at $200/T burned in a Euro type boiler that modulates will provide 1MM btu's output for $13.77. The same pellets in a non modulating type boiler will run you $17.56. Burning a full cord of wood through a good wood boiler will provide that same 1MM btu's for $7.86 Just for kicks......... a current model top drawer US made ground source heat pump will do that same 1MMbtu for about the same cost as cord wood. Number 2 fuel oil in an 80% appliance will tag you for a little over $30/MMbtu.

Using the heat loss calc you have all done for your houses do the math to find out the difference in cost and payback.

Gotta go put the splitter on the Kubota.

Mac, I don't think the Biomax is a Pellet Boiler!

Explain.......

If it is a wood boiler with some kind of a grate that accepts pellets....well, I would say to decide to go one way or the other (Pellet or wood gasifier)

There would be a vast advantage to having a local (I assume Brownie) helping you out with size, installation and advice. Huge! In fact, one of the biggest downfalls of the current central heat (solid fuel) situation is lack of such. Whether Brownie or some other local expert, I'd put a lot of weight behind that.

*first post*

Thanks Mack for starting this thread! I, too, am in the market for a pellet boiler. I would probably go with the Harman PB105, but have read too many posts about issues (though most minor) with those. THEN again, even though they have lousy customer service, there IS service. There is a distributer/installer about 30 minutes from me in NH. That is my fear about the European models, no support service ~ at all. To me the Tarn just doesn't make sense without the auto-ignition, though I am a noob, so maybe I am missing something. The Pinnacle/Traeger PB150 is enticing, I just have not seen anybody who has one comment on it. I would love your "local distributor in place and contributor to Forum" to comment on on the Traeger, and what one can expect from the unit. There is a distributer/installer in Old Orchard, or if I am close enough I would certainly support a contributer from here.

I ONLY WISH I knew someone who knows this industry ~ since I do not, I will rely on all of you ~~ Thanks, Jeff