Pelletsales.com: $343.00 per ton for "Fall" Delivery

ugenetoo said:

can you buy enough nat gas ahead at the current price to heat your home for the winter?

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Again, no problem! Maybe you don't understand the way that options work. I can lock in any pricing for any amount for most any time period. The only problems is, just like with pellets, if the price goes way down I am stuck paying the price I opted for (just like the pellets in your garage).

Maybe the question is meant to mean "can you store enough gas in a tank at your home to heat your house for the winter"....well, the answer to that is obvious - just like electricity (which runs a pellet stove) and gasoline and just about everything else, you cannot. But if the question concerns whether I have ANY worry that my nat gas will be shut off....well, that percentage is somewhere about the same as my house burning down or them stealing your pellets.

Remember that pellets basically stopped selling (stoves and fuel) in the last decade other than right after the Katrina scare and then again very recently. It's silly to act like people are burning them (90% of people, anyway) for anything other than the price....or fear. That is the single reason for the surge in demand. One year ago, the largest pellet stove producer went belly up because they could not give their stoves away.

buildingmaint said:

I would think that if there was no place that wanted wood for lumber, then there would be a glut on the market for pellets. Why would you not sell your product if there was a market that wanted your product , even if it was not the market you used to sell to.

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At a certain price, they will - but the value of timber as lumber is so much higher than the value of pellets. See my mulch example. It cost a certain amount to get a tree harvested and transported.

And, BTW, this does not only apply to pellets! Even firewood producers - if someone will pay them more for their trees to buy them and turn them into mulch, they sure are not gonna sell firewood cheap! It's all a matter of the local markets (in most cases, quite local).

They are building a biomass electric generation plant near here and I have to think that their fuel is going to be costly...even at the dead wholesale level.

They are building a biomass electric generation plant near here and I have to think that their fuel is going to be costly...even at the dead wholesale level.

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Most biomass generation and cogen facilities cost about 1/2 to 1/3 that of natural gas to operate from a fuel perspective, but the capital cost for equipment is higher.

Webmaster said:

ugenetoo said:

can you buy enough nat gas ahead at the current price to heat your home for the winter?

Click to expand...

Again, no problem! Maybe you don't understand the way that options work. I can lock in any pricing for any amount for most any time period. The only problems is, just like with pellets, if the price goes way down I am stuck paying the price I opted for (just like the pellets in your garage).

Maybe the question is meant to mean "can you store enough gas in a tank at your home to heat your house for the winter"....well, the answer to that is obvious - just like electricity (which runs a pellet stove) and gasoline and just about everything else, you cannot. But if the question concerns whether I have ANY worry that my nat gas will be shut off....well, that percentage is somewhere about the same as my house burning down or them stealing your pellets.

Remember that pellets basically stopped selling (stoves and fuel) in the last decade other than right after the Katrina scare and then again very recently. It's silly to act like people are burning them (90% of people, anyway) for anything other than the price....or fear. That is the single reason for the surge in demand. One year ago, the largest pellet stove producer went belly up because they could not give their stoves away.

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the reason harmon went "belly up" was that they chose a banker that would not stand by them when they needed capitol. quadrafire gave them the deeper pockets required to allow them to produce and "continue"to produce their products.
i guess the warm fuzzy feeling that i have must be from the yeunglings i just drank. but i also feel some sort of satisfaction that my heating needs for next year have been met and i wont have to depend on anyone to provide the fuel for me (ecxept my loving little petunia when she brings the bags in from the garage).
al gore doesnt like you because you are contributing to global warming with your nat gas habit.
i on the other hand would also be using natgas if it were available and in the right price range. maine has little natgas infrastructure due to the fact that policy makers in this state decided that a pipeline could be routed through from sable island nova scotia to service the rest of new england but they didnt insist that the pipeline owners service as much of the state as possible in the deal. another letdown!
our electricity rates have been climbing here due to the fact that an ever increasing amount of generation capacity is coming from natgas and guess what; the electric companies lay the blame on increasing gas prices. that and reports of natgas price spikes last winter lead me to believe that your inexpensive energy isnt immune to the same spikes. if not this year, then sometime in the future.
im buying pellets from maine woods pellet co in athens. they are retailing here in my town for 240/ ton. the source of the raw product is 80% whole tree chips and 20% pine mill waste. this is a startup operation that began production at the current energy prices so someone is obviously selling them the raw product at the right price to be able to make pellets competitivly. unless the logging and chipping equipment runs out of fuel, that is going to continue. there are no commodity futures trading contracts for pellets so the only speculation is from folks like me that have theirs already. not much different than buying firewood a year ahead. it just makes good sense.
my prediction, if you want it, is that pellet prices will stay the same or even drop in the next 6 to 8 months due to the ever increasing capacity that is coming online. its a lot easier to start a pellet mill than to drill for oil or build a refinery or site a compressed natgas facility. i dont think the price drop will be dramatic due to the transportation costs. if you dont live near a pellet plant, you will pay more.
predicting future prices on a dot com company like the one this thread was started about is ludicrous and only adds to the price instability. they are fishing and anyone that bites is one that they caught. they can always change their bait if the fishing gets slow.

Pellet Sales seems just to high priced to me. Just this week I just ordered 5 ton of premium pellets for late August delivery for $253 per ton. Another company was $254 per ton for an October delivery for the same pellets.

If pellet companies don't keep the cost lower then natural gas, oil, and electric, then they will die. People will not do the work involved ( carrying bags of pellets, cleaning and maintenance of the stove) they would rather just turn the dial to get the same cost of heat. There is a huge demand for stoves this year, so they will boost the prices to cover the demand for these new stove owners, but no one will heat their homes with pellets if the price even gets close to other fuels. We will all have expensive glorified fireplaces. Maybe I should invest in pellet stove conversions! LOL

modemgirl said:

If pellet companies don't keep the cost lower then natural gas, oil, and electric, then they will die. People will not do the work involved ( carrying bags of pellets, cleaning and maintenance of the stove) they would rather just turn the dial to get the same cost of heat. There is a huge demand for stoves this year, so they will boost the prices to cover the demand for these new stove owners, but no one will heat their homes with pellets if the price even gets close to other fuels. We will all have expensive glorified fireplaces. Maybe I should invest in pellet stove conversions! LOL

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Lets face it . We are at the mercy of whatever happens in the energy business and utterly helpless to do anything about it.
When and if the cost of pellets edges too close to the cost of oil the entire industry will die out or lay stagnant .
At this point in time their survival depends wholly upon being a cheaper alternative to oil , period.
I`d convert my system to nat gas if it was available in a heartbeat rather than skrew with pellets and all it entails.
John

Two points:
1. Maine's increasing electricity rates are due to the pact they have with the other New England states. Due to higher demand for electricity elsewhere, we are paying more for our rates here. Pretty dumb, and it is up for renewal, but I do not have a lot of faith that the PUC will do the right thing by not signing it. Heck, they signed off on Fair Point didn't they.

2. I believe PelletSales.com sold enough product in the 'pre-sell' stage of their operation to be satisfied for the year. They are having a hard time, logistically, meeting those orders. However, at the same time, they do not want to lose any market share. Every time someone has logged onto their site for the past month they have not been able to check prices or place orders. Well after a while I am sure people stopped 'checking', which in the long run would be bad for their business. Anyway, I do not think they are trying to inflate the price or gouge their customers. I think it is the only way they felt they could keep their doors open. They were the cheapest means for me to acquire my pellets (261.40 / ton delivered) and would still be tied for the cheapest. I, however, live in a bad pocket for being a pellet owner.

750 X $5.00 = $3750 5 X $359 = $1795 Save $2000 per season with pellets. Outrageous price but still a no brainer.

lecomte38 said:

750 X $5.00 = $3750 5 X $359 = $1795 Save $2000 per season with pellets. Outrageous price but still a no brainer.

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Those numbers are totally inaccurate.....and will mislead anyone making a choice.

I assume you are comparing fuel oil at $5.00 a gallon

$45.79 per Million BTU of Heat delivered to home

Pellets at $359.00
$31.80 per Million BTU of Heat delivered to home

That shows the pellets as being about 1/3 cheaper - WITHOUT figuring on the initial purchase of the stove, the servicing, the loading, etc.

Meaning the potential savings being - all things equal - $1250 a year.

While you mention "no brainer" - but I would suggest folks go a site where they sell pellets and heating equipment:
http://www.maineenergysystems.com/savings_calculator.htm

And do the math. As we have discussed before, there are a LOT of variables, but let me plug my best guesses into that calculation:
Term in Years: Change this to 10 years - even that is a long time for most people for a break-even or payback
Price of Oil - Leave at $4 - my guess, of course, but this is what I think it will be this heating season
Pellets - $300 - Probably an average, neither high nor low, of this heating season
Gallons of oil per year = 800 (close to the 750 above)

Total system costs - well, the calculator does not go low enough, but we have some folks spending $5K plus, so set it as low as it goes
Interest rate(s) - I caution people against buying these heating systems on credit cards, but many do!. Let's be nice and just put the interest as high as the calculator goes, 7.50% (home equity rates).

Based on those inputs......the Pellets will save me $93 a year.

Granted, no two people have the same situation. If you have the money for the Pellet stove actually sitting around collecting no interest at all, you can check the "no financing" box and get a savings closer to what I mentioned above.....1/3

I am not saying that Joe or Randy or Sue or anyone is lying....but just that the variables are so different that comparisons should be made conservatively using BTU for BTU and figuring in all costs.

I hate to keep harping on the same point, but the inaccurate info is so pervasive out there....that someone has to tell the story. Kudos to Maine Energy Systems (the calculator) for attempting to do so. Now if they could only make the ranges for interest rates go up to 22% (credit cards) and the system pricing go down to $2000 (DIY install), we'd ALL be able to use it more accurately.

Well I ordered 4tons of Cleanfire from Pellet Sales just wednesday and got it for $269 plus delivery. North East Mass.

camdids said:

Well I ordered 4tons of Cleanfire from Pellet Sales just wednesday and got it for $269 plus delivery. North East Mass.

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how much is delivery?

Webmaster said:

Here's one for you - we bought 33 cubic yards of mulch today from a local logging outfit.....expensive! I think they get $35+ per cubic yard.

The truck which brought is - my guess - may have held 8 tons. That means they received $150 a ton for green wood. It does not take too much math to see that such an operation would not make much if they used the same wood for pellets.....

Take that 8 tons - use 1 ton to generate the heat to dry the other 7.
Drying the other 7, results in about 5 or less of dry material.
Spend tens of millions on a plant.
End up with 5 tons bagged after all that.......

If you followed this far, you would understand that they received over $200 a ton for those 5 (dry) tons from me for mulch! So how much would they have to sell the finished pellets for to pay for the plant and manufacturing and the middlemen? Well, I guess about $350 in this case!

I don't doubt that there will be lots of decent deals regionally for pellets....heck, some people are still paying $200 or even less. But the market rules, and where the product can be sold as other things - from mulch to particle board - the highest price will prevail. There is no other possibility.

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you should compare apples to apples. decorative mulch is not material that would be made into pellets. most often it would be the bark, of which the tree at most, would be 15%. or it might be shavings that could be made into pellets, but which has been processed to look like bark mulch by shredding and adding a colorant (dye). bark used to be a waste product that was piled up into the swamp beside the lumber mills, but the more civilized areas decided that it was pretty and started requesting it for their small lanscaped areas. like many nonessential items, the sky is the limit when it comes to pricing so that is why you paid way more than it was actually worth.

Delivery was $18.43 per Ton. I went with a Neighbor who was already a customer. this is my first season with pellets so I went with his recommendations. The dealer I am getting the stove from is not taking orders till August.

After reading Webmaster's gloating about NG for the past couple of months, I finally decided to track down my local NG company last week. As it turns out, their gas line comes down my street (despite the fact that nobody on my street uses NG) to feed additional streets and areas. I talked to their sales rep and he said they would run the line and install the meter to my house on their dime, plus offer a $300 rebate towards the boiler purchase (the boiler distributor matches this $300 rebate as well).

I looked into boilers and they range from $1000 to $3500 each for my needs (I need two of them) w/o the rebates factored in. The price for NG in my area looks like it's around $1.75 to $1.80 per CCL with all the fees, and these prices are regulated since it's a utility... but there could (most likely will) be a price increase in Nov. Based on today's prices and my low fuel usage, the cheap $1000 boilers ($600 after the rebates) would probably be my best bet, but if NG prices go up a lot in the future, the more expensive/efficient boilers might be worth considering. OTOH, I'm not sure I really want to deal with a condensing boiler. Where can I learn more about how these work and what's involved with installing them?

While I love the idea of getting off oil, and the economics at today's prices certainly make this an easy decision, I do wonder what NG prices will be next year at this time??? Will I be jumping out of the fire and into the frying pan?

Either way, I think I'd rather be supporting north America than the middle east so I think I'm going to make the jump...

I don't know about your NG CO but the one in my area quotes prices for each month. Also find someone who has NG and try to get a look at there bill, I hear it takes a lawyer to figure it out.
I looked at the gas co charges on line once, I think 4 charges, one was for what might happen in the future, I think, good luck.

ugenetoo said:

Webmaster said:

Here's one for you - we bought 33 cubic yards of mulch today from a local logging outfit.....expensive! I think they get $35+ per cubic yard.

The truck which brought is - my guess - may have held 8 tons. That means they received $150 a ton for green wood. It does not take too much math to see that such an operation would not make much if they used the same wood for pellets.....

Take that 8 tons - use 1 ton to generate the heat to dry the other 7.
Drying the other 7, results in about 5 or less of dry material.
Spend tens of millions on a plant.
End up with 5 tons bagged after all that.......

If you followed this far, you would understand that they received over $200 a ton for those 5 (dry) tons from me for mulch! So how much would they have to sell the finished pellets for to pay for the plant and manufacturing and the middlemen? Well, I guess about $350 in this case!

I don't doubt that there will be lots of decent deals regionally for pellets....heck, some people are still paying $200 or even less. But the market rules, and where the product can be sold as other things - from mulch to particle board - the highest price will prevail. There is no other possibility.

Click to expand...

you should compare apples to apples. decorative mulch is not material that would be made into pellets. most often it would be the bark, of which the tree at most, would be 15%. or it might be shavings that could be made into pellets, but which has been processed to look like bark mulch by shredding and adding a colorant (dye). bark used to be a waste product that was piled up into the swamp beside the lumber mills, but the more civilized areas decided that it was pretty and started requesting it for their small lanscaped areas. like many nonessential items, the sky is the limit when it comes to pricing so that is why you paid way more than it was actually worth.

Click to expand...

It is kind of apples to apples. Quite a few mills are grinding whole wood waste as a pellet fuel and or mulch ,depending on who is paying the better buck after transport. In the future I believe you will see less and less mulch on the market because of demand from biomass and pellet plants(it will be limited to bark). Biomass plants will be the winner because of alot less processing involved to make raw material.

Wet1 said:

While I love the idea of getting off oil, and the economics at today's prices certainly make this an easy decision, I do wonder what NG prices will be next year at this time??? Will I be jumping out of the fire and into the frying pan?

Either way, I think I'd rather be supporting north America than the middle east so I think I'm going to make the jump...

Click to expand...

I have had both oil and Nat Gas in quite a few homes, and I definitely prefer gas....BUT, there has been times over the years when oil was cheaper than NG.

ALL in all, NG is a cleaner fuel and leaves more of the oil for jet fuel and other things that we can't do with gas.

My normal advice would be, as usual, to calculate the payback on a conservative level....as well as the things that money can't buy - for instance, a LOT of people enjoy cooking with gas, and also gas stoves, inserts and fireplaces are nice.

Prices could vary, but in general I think the lack of portability of NG (relative) will keep the price lower than oil. A guess, of course.

Wet1 said:

After reading Webmaster's gloating about NG for the past couple of months, I finally decided to track down my local NG company last week. As it turns out, their gas line comes down my street (despite the fact that nobody on my street uses NG) to feed additional streets and areas. I talked to their sales rep and he said they would run the line and install the meter to my house on their dime, plus offer a $300 rebate towards the boiler purchase (the boiler distributor matches this $300 rebate as well).

I looked into boilers and they range from $1000 to $3500 each for my needs (I need two of them) w/o the rebates factored in. The price for NG in my area looks like it's around $1.75 to $1.80 per CCL with all the fees, and these prices are regulated since it's a utility... but there could (most likely will) be a price increase in Nov. Based on today's prices and my low fuel usage, the cheap $1000 boilers ($600 after the rebates) would probably be my best bet, but if NG prices go up a lot in the future, the more expensive/efficient boilers might be worth considering. OTOH, I'm not sure I really want to deal with a condensing boiler. Where can I learn more about how these work and what's involved with installing them?

While I love the idea of getting off oil, and the economics at today's prices certainly make this an easy decision, I do wonder what NG prices will be next year at this time??? Will I be jumping out of the fire and into the frying pan?

Either way, I think I'd rather be supporting north America than the middle east so I think I'm going to make the jump...

Click to expand...

Payback could be in just a couple years. No doubt gas prices will rise eventually but I wouldn`t bet oil prices will be falling substantially .
John

Webmaster said:

Wet1 said:

While I love the idea of getting off oil, and the economics at today's prices certainly make this an easy decision, I do wonder what NG prices will be next year at this time??? Will I be jumping out of the fire and into the frying pan?

Either way, I think I'd rather be supporting north America than the middle east so I think I'm going to make the jump...

Click to expand...

I have had both oil and Nat Gas in quite a few homes, and I definitely prefer gas....BUT, there has been times over the years when oil was cheaper than NG.

ALL in all, NG is a cleaner fuel and leaves more of the oil for jet fuel and other things that we can't do with gas.

My normal advice would be, as usual, to calculate the payback on a conservative level....as well as the things that money can't buy - for instance, a LOT of people enjoy cooking with gas, and also gas stoves, inserts and fireplaces are nice.

Prices could vary, but in general I think the lack of portability of NG (relative) will keep the price lower than oil. A guess, of course.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply.

Any thoughts on the condensing vs. traditional boilers? I got prices on three models of boilers. The first two are traditional boilers rated at 80% and 83.3% and cost $1050 and $1250 respectfully (w/o rebates). The higher efficiency of the two would be a direct vent so I figure this model will cost about an additional $300 for the venting materials. The condensing boilers are rated at 93%+, but the cost for the boiler itself was going to be around $2500 to $3000. This doesn't include parts or installation. I can install the traditional boilers myself, but I know nothing about the condensing models and what it takes to install one and what additional parts are needed to complete the system (any ideas?). I was also told I could not install the condensing boilers myself (is this true?) and that installation isn't cheap on these models (any idea what this cost?). I need to get a better feel for what's involved with completing the condensing boiler systems and the total cost of doing so before I can determine the payback... but, my guess is gas prices would have to be pretty high for it to be worth my while to go with the more efficient condensing boilers...

Thanks again for the help, and sorry to get OT!

I think a new post in the boiler room would get you more experts on the condensing units. I don't keep up with the technologies......it is quite possible they have perfected them by now.

I would probably do what you are leaning toward....go with the best of the tried and true. A conservative fiscal position!

Giovanni said:

Wet1 said:

After reading Webmaster's gloating about NG for the past couple of months, I finally decided to track down my local NG company last week. As it turns out, their gas line comes down my street (despite the fact that nobody on my street uses NG) to feed additional streets and areas. I talked to their sales rep and he said they would run the line and install the meter to my house on their dime, plus offer a $300 rebate towards the boiler purchase (the boiler distributor matches this $300 rebate as well).

I looked into boilers and they range from $1000 to $3500 each for my needs (I need two of them) w/o the rebates factored in. The price for NG in my area looks like it's around $1.75 to $1.80 per CCL with all the fees, and these prices are regulated since it's a utility... but there could (most likely will) be a price increase in Nov. Based on today's prices and my low fuel usage, the cheap $1000 boilers ($600 after the rebates) would probably be my best bet, but if NG prices go up a lot in the future, the more expensive/efficient boilers might be worth considering. OTOH, I'm not sure I really want to deal with a condensing boiler. Where can I learn more about how these work and what's involved with installing them?

While I love the idea of getting off oil, and the economics at today's prices certainly make this an easy decision, I do wonder what NG prices will be next year at this time??? Will I be jumping out of the fire and into the frying pan?

Either way, I think I'd rather be supporting north America than the middle east so I think I'm going to make the jump...

Click to expand...

Payback could be in just a couple years. No doubt gas prices will rise eventually but I wouldn`t bet oil prices will be falling substantially .
John

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Thanks for your input John. My guess is NG will probably rise right along with oil, but to a lesser degree. I also expect to see NG prices around $2.50 this winter, but that would still save me a significant amount over oil (at $5/gal). It might even be a craps shoot, but I do like the idea of cleaner burning gas and not buying from the middle east...

Webmaster said:

I think a new post in the boiler room would get you more experts on the condensing units. I don't keep up with the technologies......it is quite possible they have perfected them by now.

I would probably do what you are leaning toward....go with the best of the tried and true. A conservative fiscal position!

Click to expand...

Thanks again.

Webmaster said:

Wet1 said:

While I love the idea of getting off oil, and the economics at today's prices certainly make this an easy decision, I do wonder what NG prices will be next year at this time??? Will I be jumping out of the fire and into the frying pan?

Either way, I think I'd rather be supporting north America than the middle east so I think I'm going to make the jump...

Click to expand...

I have had both oil and Nat Gas in quite a few homes, and I definitely prefer gas....BUT, there has been times over the years when oil was cheaper than NG.

ALL in all, NG is a cleaner fuel and leaves more of the oil for jet fuel and other things that we can't do with gas.

My normal advice would be, as usual, to calculate the payback on a conservative level....as well as the things that money can't buy - for instance, a LOT of people enjoy cooking with gas, and also gas stoves, inserts and fireplaces are nice.

Prices could vary, but in general I think the lack of portability of NG (relative) will keep the price lower than oil. A guess, of course.

Click to expand...

ng will be very portable when the compressed ng plants come on line. they are being put through the nimby wringer as we speak, but this fossil fuel hungry country will eventually win out.
i dont trust any utility at the moment due to the volitility of the trading scemes.