Installer Said Outside Air Kit Not Necessary?????

Glowball Worming Bust said:

Giovanni said:

Installing a pellet stove with an OAK does not in any way change the quantity of available air you breath in your home.
If you are OK without a stove why would that volume change with a stove and an OAK?

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without the OAK fresh air will be brought into house for breathing purposes. too much is a waste of heat but too little can create health consequences. 1/3 indoor volume/ hr. exchange is ideal figure, i think, & inline with 72CFM figure.

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Because the air from an OAK is specifically directed into the combustion and up the chimney. It shouldn`t affect the equation of the normal household air.
The purpose, function, design , or effect of a pellet stove should not be for drawing in fresh air to breath.

I have tried to post the page dealing with Outside Air Requirements from my 13NC Englander Stove Manuel.(file was too large) If you read it, it is says outside air is required for mobile homes and double-wides and tightly weather sealed homes.

I did do a lot of complaining about this requirement because my mobile home is a hybrid, 600 sq. ft is stick built (2X6 walls) and 500 sq. ft.is the original trailer, plus it has a trussed roof installed over the original roof and additions and it has gable end vents and soffit vents. It also has an attic access stairway. 2 of the walls of the original trailer have been cut away to provide for the stick built portions. My mobile is 40 years old. For such small square footage I did burn 750 gallons of K-1 last year. I also run a full size dryer in my moble. Do i think i need an outside air hook-up. No way. But code requires me to put one in so I will.

I'm just wondering how much this cold outside air is costing me in lost BTU's required to heat this cold air?

Much of this stuff is regional based on climate and building standards....I think the state of MN, for instance, has requirements for tight construction and outside air.

Using a more simple guide, folks who live in cold climates should usually consider OAKs for pellet stoves.

Our friend, John Gulland, has done extensive research on the negative pressure caused by solid fuel stoves of various types.
http://www.gulland.ca/NegativePressureTestProtocolRPT.htm
http://www.gulland.ca/HarmonizationRPT.htm
http://www.gulland.ca/products/fieldtest.htm

Note that John seems to not suggest OAK on regular natural draft stoves and fireplaces........but on forced draft systems it may be required.

Personally, I would decide based on a number of factors - what the maker says, the tightness of my home, the ease of installing it, how often I was going to use the stove....and especially how open the room was to other areas of the home. I would definitely attempt to use OAK in smaller rooms and areas not open to most of the house.

Yes, Ok for breathing, but doesn't my clothes dryer that I used all winter with a 4" hose to the outside have the same potential to suffocate one?

Please ellucidate Glowball? (Damn there's that big word again, I'm sure to get some nasty posts about it like I did the last time I used it....about 20) Are you saying by spending a bunch of money I don't have, I can buy some gizmo to mitigate my heat loss?

I'm just still miffed after all these months that I still have to heat my stove with cold air. I'll get over it in 2 or 3 years.

JPapiPE said:

yes Ok for breathing, but doesn't my dryer that i used all winter with a 4" hose to the outside have the same potential to suffocate one?

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I dont think most people run their dryers 24hrs a day thereby not allowing time for the house to relace the removed air

Very much so, JP....in fact, Gulland was called into many houses where woodstoves were not working correctly because of the dryer and other such ventilation. The combination of all these things can add up.

But I somewhat agree that a powered unit - like a pellet stove...in most cases will simply end up sucking more air into the house through cracks (as opposed to misbehaving)........

I spoke to some experts about this years ago and learned all kinds of things...for instance, there were lawsuits against woodstove makers because of soot covering the walls in a house. After investigation, the culprit in this (and many other) situations turned out to be.....attached garages. Think about it - when you start your car it spews exhaust into your garage. If the house is depressurized, the house pulls in this exhaust though seals in the door, etc. -

Another big culprit was candles.

The important thing is to keep in mind all of the various systems at work. Personally, I almost never use candles....and I pull out of the garage immediately.

Geez, we never had these problems 40 years ago. All we did was knock out a window pane and replace it with a piece of tin and cut a hole for our stove pipe and we never died.

And yes Fred I run my dryer 24/7 as I have stock in a couple of Power companies... He He

JPapiPE said:

And yes Fred I run my dryer 24/7 as I have stock in a couple of Power companies... He He

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Well why didnt you say so before?? I'll go turn on all my lights, stove and dryer and help you out a little...

OK Glowball i used your link to calculate the difference in output between K-1 and Hardwood Cords. I burned 750 gallons of K-1 last year at an output of 101.25 million BTU'S and then I did the calc on the 4 cord of seasoned Hardwood I have and came up with a total output of 96Million BTU'S for the wood.

At first glance it does seem reasonable, but the fact is that I kept my thermosthat at 60 degrees last year while burning K-1. I got to say as a former woodburner for 9 years there is no wayI'll burn 4 cords this winter and I sure as hell won't be shivering at a temp setting of 60 degrees.

I know you are only passing on information of some persons studies and I applaud your vilgilance for trying to stay on top of the game, but there is some item that is not being factored in. I know my parlor will be at least 82 degress (where the stove is installed) and my perifery rooms will be between 65 and 55 degrees, depending on how far they are from the wood stove and whether or not i'm running the fans.

Most respectfully, Joe (certified fool)

OK OK I give I give.....You have all convinced me to do an OAK. I have the stove installed as an insert in a massonary chimeny. 3" exhust pipe with the standard plate covering the top of the 8" flu. What if I was to put a hole in the plate covering the top flu. Would the air now be pulled back down the chimney? Am I going to run into sucking the smoke back down the chimeny from the vent pipe? The quad instructions state you should run a OAK back up the flu next to the exhust pipe and must be 12" below the exhust pipe. No way it would be 12" as it stands now. Could I add a small dryer vent style pipe at the top plate in the flu and run it along side the chimney down away from the exhust pipe? Looking for suggestion. I am not going to cut through the brick chimney to get fresh air. That is not going to happen. Any suggestions would be great.

Outdoor combustion air was a good idea . . . until it was studied.

The outdoor combustion air myth got started about forty years ago when safety and construction standards were written for mobile homes. Because they were small and factory-built, it was believed that mobile homes were air tight. As a result, all wood, oil and gas furnaces, stoves and fireplaces had to get their air from outdoors. Because these air supplies were invariably routed straight down into the ventilated crawl space under the mobile home, they didn't cause too many problems, so it was assumed that they actually worked.

In the 1980s, when large exhaust systems – like downdraft kitchen range exhausts – began to cause spillage from fireplaces in reasonably tight houses, a consensus quickly formed around the idea of bringing combustion air from outdoors, just as had been done in mobile homes for decades. Such certainty existed among housing technologists and regulatory authorities on the issue of outdoor combustion air that it was made mandatory in most building codes. Unfortunately, the decision to enforce mandatory outdoor air rules was made before research was done to investigate how they actually work.

Take from it what you will. I see no need for it myself, in a house.
This is a direct quote from :
http://www.woodheat.org/outdoorair/outdoorairmyth.htm

mralias said:

OK OK I give I give.....You have all convinced me to do an OAK. I have the stove installed as an insert in a massonary chimeny. 3" exhust pipe with the standard plate covering the top of the 8" flu. What if I was to put a hole in the plate covering the top flu. Would the air now be pulled back down the chimney? Am I going to run into sucking the smoke back down the chimeny from the vent pipe? The quad instructions state you should run a OAK back up the flu next to the exhust pipe and must be 12" below the exhust pipe. No way it would be 12" as it stands now. Could I add a small dryer vent style pipe at the top plate in the flu and run it along side the chimney down away from the exhust pipe? Looking for suggestion. I am not going to cut through the brick chimney to get fresh air. That is not going to happen. Any suggestions would be great.

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Extend your exhaust pipe and follow the Quad manual recommendation for your OAK.

flashbang said:

Outdoor combustion air was a good idea . . . until it was studied.

The outdoor combustion air myth got started about forty years ago when safety and construction standards were written for mobile homes. Because they were small and factory-built, it was believed that mobile homes were air tight. As a result, all wood, oil and gas furnaces, stoves and fireplaces had to get their air from outdoors. Because these air supplies were invariably routed straight down into the ventilated crawl space under the mobile home, they didn't cause too many problems, so it was assumed that they actually worked.

In the 1980s, when large exhaust systems – like downdraft kitchen range exhausts – began to cause spillage from fireplaces in reasonably tight houses, a consensus quickly formed around the idea of bringing combustion air from outdoors, just as had been done in mobile homes for decades. Such certainty existed among housing technologists and regulatory authorities on the issue of outdoor combustion air that it was made mandatory in most building codes. Unfortunately, the decision to enforce mandatory outdoor air rules was made before research was done to investigate how they actually work.

Take from it what you will. I see no need for it myself, in a house.
This is a direct quote from :
http://www.woodheat.org/outdoorair/outdoorairmyth.htm

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I skimmed that fairly quickly and come away with what they say is NOT having a OAK ( what they call "Passive make-up air supplies" ) is worse that a OAK ( they call "Direct-to-combustion chamber outdoor air supplies") What it looks like to me is that they are comparing the two using a fireplace, or wood stove ( Actual quote is "...with a duct attached running to the stove or fireplace" - and due to the websiite being Woodheat.org I believe they are not referencing pellet stoves that use a fan to Force the exhaust out the exhaust vent. (I could not find "pellet" or pellet stove listed.) I am pretty sure they are only refering to items with a natural draft.... I may be wrong..

My response would be that I bought the stove to save money. Heating the air inside my house and then blowing it outdoors and bringing in cold air to replace it doesn't seem logical.
Bringing in outside air directly into the stove shouldn't hurt anything on the stove as that cold air is contained until it is sucked into the burning chamber.
The only downside I noticed is if the temp changed in a hurry as in a blizzard situation the stove would react a little different because of the drastic temp change of the incoming air. You wouldn't have that if you were burning inside air.

I love this debate. There are good arguments on both sides, but I'll side with the OAK. I installed OAK's on both my Fireplace and stove and have found it does increase the efficiency. Some people say stoves whether it be wood or pellet just don't use enough air to make a difference. I say the opposite is true. Go outside and look at your chimney, that exhaust you see is the same amount of cold air being drawn into your home through cracks or windows if you have no OAK. I'd rather have the heat pushed out towards the cracks. The stove may burn fine without it, but you will burn more to make up for the heat lose. Like Fred says, it's the equivalent of a hole in your wall with a 50-100 cfm fan blowing cold air in.

I tend to think like you, Todd. Knowing that my 1923 house has plenty of gaps allowing air infiltration does not make me more inclined to rely on inside air that will only encourage the rush of cold air into the house; it only makes me more interested in an OAK.

[By the way, I'm in the research stage. Grew up in a house heated by a soapstone stove and a big ol' steel stove in the garage with heat ducted to the house. Natural gas prices seem to me driving me back into wood heat's warm embrace. Thanks to my research here I am narrowing my options, with Lopi Declaration (and Travis variants) and Jotul's c 350 or 450 at the top of the list.]

Damn, I wander away for a few hours and Fred gets turned loose and Glowball changes his sex. I feel like i can't leave you youngsters alone for 5 minutes. LOL


Your Buddy Joe

I think I'll try to sell my belly on E-Bay and start reading The National Enquireer

Here is a picture from the Quad Mt Vernon insert (AE) manual showing the full reline with outside air (OAK) specs.
The picture shows the outside air going out an outside wall AND running up the inside of the chimney.

It is not clear from the picture, is it necessary to run the OAK out the outside wall AND up the inside of the chimney or just one OR the other?

rcredsox said:

Here is a picture from the Quad Mt Vernon insert (AE) manual showing the full reline with outside air (OAK) specs.
The picture shows the outside air going out an outside wall AND running up the inside of the chimney.

It is not clear from the picture, is it necessary to run the OAK out the outside wall AND up the inside of the chimney or just one OR the other?

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Either/Or not both.

In my masonry fireplace (located on an outside wall), I have a small door in the front of the firebrick floor that when open, provides outside air from a channel underneath the fireplace that is vented (with a screen) to the outside of my chimney.

I have a Mt Vernon AE insert pellet stove on order. If the stove sits on the firebrick floor it will probably cover up this opening. Can anyone think of a way I can reuse this outside air connection for my pellet stove?

Here is a picture of the small door location.

Our friend, John Gulland, has done extensive research on the negative pressure caused by solid fuel stoves of various types.

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My problem with Gulland's advice is he assumes a specific ductwork arrangement that could cause problems when all that is needed is proper ducting design for an Outside air system even on a natural draft device.

A properly designed outside air system will always be a benefit, even on a wood stove system.

WOW

You guys need a better hobby on a Sunday. I left the forum on Sunday morning and just got back on. This thread is huge. Great info and has me thinking, kinda good for a Monday morning.

Some nice posting
Eric

Ohhhh my brain hurts......What type of Outside Air Pipe should be used? Please don't tell me the same expensive stuff as the vent pipe. Hope there is a cheaper alternative. Thanks. The owners manual does not tell you anything about the type of pipe to use.

I would buy the Harman thr the wall kit....or direct vent only one hole in the wall...

mralias said:

Ohhhh my brain hurts......What type of Outside Air Pipe should be used? Please don't tell me the same expensive stuff as the vent pipe. Hope there is a cheaper alternative. Thanks. The owners manual does not tell you anything about the type of pipe to use.

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Home Depot sells an inexpensive 3" flexible aluminum duct that fits right over the intake flange and clamped.