questions on converting to wood heat

Hello all,

New member here, hope to be around for a while and eventually share my own experiences. Like many (most? all?) of you, I'm looking to convert to wood heat based on cost of heating fuel, LP in my case. I've read a number of the posts here, and have my mind fairly made up, but would appreciate thoughts and comments based on ya'lls experiences.

Here's some background and what my thoughts are. As a newbie, I'll look for any and all sage advise, so please comment or make suggestions.

I'm looking to heat a 2,100 sq. ft. brick ranch home, with a 2,100 sq. ft. basement under it. It's 1989 construction with 2x6 framing so its well insulated, currently heating with LP gas to a forced air furnace. The great room has a small woodburning fireplace without doors that's inefficient as heck, so I don't use it at all. Because I don't want to roast myself out of the great room and not heat the rest of house (and basement), and because I don't want to lug wood up to the great room (did I mention the house has a walkout basement?) and tromp the wood into the great room I've pretty much decided against doing any kind of retrofit to the existing main floor fireplace.

Besides the cost of heating fuel, I have dozens and dozens of ash trees on my property that the emerald ash borer has wiped out, that are now standing dead. I'd be burning 100% ash for the next several years, the best part of it being that it's all free, as long as my back holds out! To preserve all this ash wood, my plan is to start taking the trees down (and they range from 3-4" in diamter to 12-14" in diameter, with a few very large trees that unfortunately are also dead) and store them inside my pole barn, in long lengths, simply setting them on the cement floor, and then cutting as needed.

After looking into wood boilers and add-on wood furnaces I'm leaning towards a wood stove, in particular a Hearthstone Equinox, based on btu output, burn time, and efficiency. My thought is to have it installed in the basement, have it piped to the side of house, and then up the outside with a stainless steel freestanding chimney. Vertical run would be about 25' or so, and a horizontal (upward angled) run from the stove to the side wall would be 10-12'. There is a doorwall close by, so the unit can be brought in that way, and I would be able to store wood right outside the door there in the winter.

So, given this info, my questions are:

1. Will there be enough draft on a chimney setup like this? Anyone have a recommendation on a local installer I could speak to about this, and maybe have them put it in?

2. Will I be able to heat both floors with a Hearthone Equinox located in the basement? I should add that it is a finished basement, with the exception that there is no ceiling installed, the first floor joists and plumbing and etc. are all open, but there are several rooms, all done in drywall, and the entire basement is carpeted.

3. If I need additional heat (air) circulation, can I just run the fan on the furnace to let it circulate the air that way? Anyone ever do this, and did it work? I am already resigned to the idea that I would need several fans in the basement to move air, including one by the steps to help bring heat upstairs. Additionally, I am not adverse to opening up some of the floor registers to allow heat to rise up from the basement, but cutting additional holes in the floor is not an option, if I plan to stay married!

I'm sure I'll have more questions in time, but for now will be curious to everyone's thoughts on this.


Thanks in advance!

[quote author="wellbuilt home" date="1220810797". your floors will stay real toasty with no sheet rock on the ceilings. With the ceilings open any wood floors mite dry out . You cant run flue horizontal that would be bad .]






Hi wellbuilt home, thanks for getting back to me. I had not considered the possibility that the floor underlayment (1/2" OSB) would dry out from running the wood stove in the basement!

Anyone have expereince with this? Would a humidifier cut down on this drying affect? The underside of the flooring for the main floor is about 9.5 feet from the basement floor (8' walls, plus one brick height, plus the height of the joists supporting them).

Also, I could run the fan on the forced air furnace and have a humidifier on that which would run with the fan on. Anyone have any experience with this?

FatttFire said:

One good solid piece of advice, get out there right now and start cutting and splitting, and keep going so next winter you will have a dry seasoned woodpile!

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Thanks FatttFire! I already have about 4 cord cut in 18" lengths that have been seasoning for 2 years, so I have a jump on the seasoned woodpile.

Being that these logs are 4-6" in diameter, do I need to split, or will they burn just as well leaving them round?

Jags said:

Ashburner - for your log question, I would typically split the 6" but probably not on the 4".

If I am picturing your install correctly, you are going to have an angle run to the outside wall and then up 25 feet, for a total chimney height of 35 to 37 feet?

That angle run gives me the shivers. Not to mention the additional length (of an already long, 25 ft stack). It may actually draft like crazy, but by the time any smoke that escapes your stove, gets to the top of that exterior chimney, its probably going to be warm at best.

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Thanks for getting back to me, Jags.

I am not sure what you mean when you say that the smoke is going to be warm at best?

A vertical run within the confines of the footprint of the house is not practical to install for a variety of reasons, mainly asthetics.

The existing fireplace I would have to tear out and replace with something other which I prefer not to do, plus, because the fireplace is on the walkout side of the house, its a cantilevered chase (i.e. not supported by anything from underneath). I don't think the cantilevered framing would support an 800 lb. fireplace, and I say that because I already also looked into the 44" Fireplace Xtrodinaire as a solution, and everyone ran from the idea of installing that. My other issue with putting a fireplace on the main floor is how to get heat into the basement then. It's a liveable area, plus, I don't want to have a toasty upstairs with pipes and such freezing in the basement.

I have seen the horizontal runs in the stove ads, and even been quoted the hardware for a 10 foot length of near horizontal run of 10" double wall insulated, which is actually angled upwards by several degrees (there is a formula but I don't remember it offhand... 1" per foot or something like that?) to meet code, but yes, it would be 35 to 37 foot of overall run.

Are there concerns with this? I'm wanting to know what Im getting into before I drop nearly $4K on a stove, and then the material and labor to put it in.

Thanks!

Jags said:

Ashburner -
Ya gotta do, what ya gotta do. Sometimes it isn't ideal, sometimes it is. My concern is that you have a pretty long stack (35-37 feet) and coupled with that is an angled run of ~10ft. The angle run, because of additional resistance, now is "seen" to the system as more than 10ft. I can't tell you exactly how much more, but more. Meaning that your "system" is probably going to have the resistance of a stack that is 40 ft tall. Thats a lot of stack, now add on the fact that 25ft of this is external and you are whipping up a recipe for some cold flue gasses (gives ya the creosote's).

Its nothing that can't be adjusted for as long as you know the issues. It just may mean more frequent cleanings, hotter fires, etc. Just be aware that this COULD be an issue.

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Hmmmm.... I start to wonder if this installation would be a good solution after all... The indoor run was recommended to be double wall insulated, so that I could install the system close to the wall. With the heat shield I can put the equinox 6" from the rear wall, and the double wall insulated indoor run could be as close as 2".

With the horizontal run being insulated, I am guessing that the temperature drop in the length of that run would not be so bad? It gets expensive as all get-out tho, the pipe (10" diameter) was quoted at $44./linear ft. (I have not checked for competitive pricing on that yet...)

In any case, the turn on the outside of the house would be a Tee, with a support and a cleanout, and that cleanout would be about 7' or so above ground level. To my way of thinking, at least cleaning the vertical run would be easy, the horizontal section I would no doubt have to remove and clean that way.

Anyone else have input on such an installation?

Thanks to everyone who's responded so far!

Risser09 said:

Your biggest worry is draft, plain and simple. If you can substantiate that you will have good draft, then you can start worrying about how to spread the heat around (registers, fans, ceiling fans, blowers). I am kind of confused by your 10-12 feet of stove pipe in the interior. Where is the stove going to be located in the room? Why not install the stove against the wall to at least ensure adequate draft (less horizontal run)? Worst case scenario (thinking 2100 sq.ft.) is that you are getting one side of your house nice and toasty and you might have to turn your furnace on to take the chill off the rest of the house, but will still have a well functioning stove.

Ranking most important to consider for wood stoves.
1. Draft
2. Placement (location, location, location)
3. Circulation (floor plans, registers, fans, ceiling heights)

Btw, I had no problem spending $4000+ to put my whole system in. At the current price of oil, I would be spending $2500+ annually to heat only my first floor, which is 800 sq.ft. I have a 60 year old oil furnace that is horribly inefficient and might have needed to be replaced anyway. My goal is to recoup the cost in 2 years. Another benefit of having the stove/chimney setup is that you now have another option to heat your house with. Versatility is key.

Definitely crunch some numbers. It sounds like it would be worthwhile for you since you have wood at your disposal.

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Thanks for the input! Here's some additional details to answer your questions:

There were two reasons for the idea of having/needing a 10' horizontal run. First, it would would allow me to center the stove on the wall. This was purely aesthetics, without prior knowledge of draft issues. Second, centering the stove in the game room (as I call it) would more or less put the stove in the middle of the house, and closer to the hallway where I would need to push heat, in order to get it up the stairs.

As a follow up question to you, how do I substantiate that I would have a good draft? Keep in mind the equinox requires an 8" chimney; that might affect the draft, no? (And I assume larger volume = better flow = better draft once it gets going?)


For circulation I have no issue with adding fans all over the basement. I have two ceiling fans in the great room (directly above where the stove would be), and one in the master bedroom. The other two bedroom ceiling lights are wired for fans but none are installed. I could add two more ceiling fans to those back bedrooms. In addition I could remove a few of the floor registers so they are open to the basement, replace the register covers, and then, add those register fans that sit on top to pull air up. One additional idea I had was to remove the carpet from the uppermost riser of the steps coming up from the basement, cut two holes in the riser, and from behind, add a couple of small fans like what we used to call muffin fans in the computer industry. At least these are the ideas I've had so far. I'm hoping someone has experience with these and can provide some input on how they worked to pull heat up from the lower level.

I still am also curious if simply using the fan on the furnace will circulate enough air in the house to bring the warm air upstairs. The supply ductwork and cold air returns are sufficient to keep the house nice and warm using the furnace, and cool using the a/c, so I assume the furnace fan would circulate enough air to bring the heat up. Anyone? I'd really like to hear more about this, as it would be a simple matter to add a second thermostat to the fan to turn on and off depending on how hot it is upstairs.

As far as cost, I expect a 2 year payback on the system, or a bit longer. I typically use 1400 gallons of LP a year, and at $2.49/gal contract price this year I'm already at $3,486 for this coming year, and double that for next year assuming no increase, which we know it will go up. I have prices from $3300 to $3600 for the stove, a rough estimate of $750 to install it, plus need all the chimney and fittings, and a hearthpad, so closer to $6,000 by the time its all said and done. I say a bit longer because I also use the LP for the hot water heater, and there will be times where it is warm enough not to have the stove running, but want a bit of heat. Let me know if I'm missing anything on the numbers.

Just thinking about cutting all that wood thats standing dead makes me want to say "oh my aching ash", but that would be a bad pun... Its also why I've thought about taking it down in lengths and storing it in the barn, cutting it as I need for the winters of 09, 10, 11, and so on vs. trying to cut and split all of it this year. Since the barn is there, sitting empty, and I can control bugs and rot a bit better than storing outside, I figured what the heck.

#1 is completely wrong ! Wood stored inside, bark on or off WILL last a VERY long time.

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I agree. I have some split firewood in my garage that's over 10 years old (some oak, some maple) and its in as good a shape as the day I stacked it in there. It's also why I plan to store the logs in the pole barn, and get to cutting them when I can.


Thanks for your comments on this!

Jags said:

Most houses have their own little demons to overcome when it comes to moving air. In MY experience, in MY house, I consider the furnace fan an "equalizer". It really doesn't move a heck of alot of heat from the stove area to the other parts, but because of the volume of air being "stirred" up by the fan, it tends to equalize or mix up the air pretty well. Others have reported that they use the furnace fan like you are suggesting and it works, for others it has failed.

If at all possible, get rid of that horizontal run. Its additional pipe (expense) it adds to an already long pipe run, and it increases your chance of a questionable draft. If it doesn't "have" to be, don't do it (simply my opinion). How about the corner or wall that the pipe was going to exit??

As far as heat getting from the basement to upstairs, it is somewhat commonly accepted that moving cold air to the heat and allowing heated air to replace the cold works the best. Some have had success trying to push heat up stairs, some have failed.

I know it sounds like a bunch of double talk, but to state from my keyboard that your draft will be great, and using your furnace fan to circulate heat and....... there are simply too many variables to say "sure, that will work". Trying to give yourself the best case scenario and setup will only help your chance of success.

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Thanks Jags, its exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for. I hadn't thought about the furnace fan in terms of being an "equalizer".

I can move the stove closer to the wall where the pipe will exit, and maybe set the stove in place at a 45 degree angle to the corner. In any event there will be a bend immediately after the pipe exits the stove, because I can't install the stove with the back facing that wall. The wall in that area follows the house footprint, and is only about 2.5 feet wide. Also, the equinox has a side load door on the left side which I would block, and not sure I would have enough side clearance for safety anyway.

While I would save about 8 feet of horizontal run in the house, the vertical run would increase by about 5-6 feet as the exit point would be much lower on the outside wall, coming straight back off the stove instead of angled upward for many feet. From the responses so far it seems this is more desireable than having the long indoor run anyway.

Interesting idea to push the cold air towards the heat.... makes me wonder about putting fans into the cold air returns to help with that, instead of trying to push warm air up into the first floor.


I found a dealer that has the equinox in stock and am going to look at it today or tomorrow, which will also help my purchase decision.

All of this information is great, so please keep the suggestions and comments coming. Believe it or not it does help!

~ashburner

Jags said:

Good, it sounds like I at least have you "thinking" about the system. Like I said above, ya gotta do, what ya gotta do. Horizontal runs happen all the time (through walls, into existing flues, etc.) but 10 ft runs, not so much. Smoke doesn't like sideways. Each horizontal ft + each elbow increase resistance and slows down the exhaust. Keep them at a minimum if at all possible.

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I went and looked at the Hearthstone Equinox yesterday, a real beaut! The store personnel and their quick phone call to Hearthstone also strongly suggested I stay away from a 10-12 foot horizontal run. With five or more thumbs-down on that installation I am going to install it in the corner, at a 45 degree angle, no long horizontal run. Thanks everyone for that info.

The recommended install still suggests the stove pipe to exit straight up from the top for a few feet, then out the wall horizontally, and then turning back up. I like the look of the stoves in the brochure where the pipe exits horizontally out the back, and would have the pipe go straight outside, and then go up.

Any issues with fires getting the draft to pull correctly with the pipe exiting the back vs. the top?

Jags said:

Ashburner - you got'er figured out now. Obviously the "perfect" config. is out the top and straight up. Not always an option. Doing as you say should work just fine. Now if we could only do something about that exterior chimney........... ;-P

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Thanks again Jags. The outdoor portion of the chimney won't be a problem, because the L-shape of the room I plan to install the stove in is the same L-shape on the outside of the house. It will be more or less hidden in an alcove on the north side of the house, so the only place I would really see it from is while sitting in the hot tub, and when me and mama are sitting out there I don't think I'll be much paying attention to the chimney, if you know what I mean! ;-)


My only "concern" with the chimney is that it will be installed close to the house and go through the soffitt and then out the roof. I asked about the possibility of a longer Tee where the chimney exits the house, and using roof supports to hold the chimney to the house (its brick), then go up past the soffit and gutter without cutting into it. They told me that can't be done, because the Tee and support piece does not come in "lengths", only enough to get it out of the building and make the turn to go upwards. Because it supports the entire weight of the chimney it can't be simply extended.

Any other insight on this? Is there a longer Tee available that would allow me to set the chimney 2 feet out from the wall and go up on the outside of the soffit instead of cutting into it? Maybe something the fireplace store didn't know about?

VTZJ said:

ashburner said:

#1 is completely wrong ! Wood stored inside, bark on or off WILL last a VERY long time.

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I agree. I have some split firewood in my garage that's over 10 years old (some oak, some maple) and its in as good a shape as the day I stacked it in there. It's also why I plan to store the logs in the pole barn, and get to cutting them when I can.

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Completely wrong? Did I miss something? I thought the question was about the wisdom of storing unsplit log lengths of Borer infested Ash with bark on under cover. What this has to do with ten year old cut and split oak and maple I'm not sure. I put a little thought into my reply to your original post, and here is one of several facts I considered in making my recommendation: "Emerald ash borer (EAB), Agrilus planipennis Fairmaire, is an exotic beetle ... The larvae (the immature stage) feed on the inner bark of ash trees..." http://www.emeraldashborer.info/

My recommendation was to facilitate the drying of this log length unsplit wood by opening the bark. Drying makes the wood undesireable to the Borer, and many other wood degrading pests and fungii. My best advice is to cut and split it all, but you indicated that was not practical, plus it's obvious, so I didn't mention it.

Log lengths bark on will take a couple years to dry, even under cover, and that's common knowledge. So please tell me, what's so "completely wrong" about my advice?

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Just to be fair, the original response to your item number 1 regarding wood stored indoors was made by Lees Wood-Co., not by me.

In response to his post I said that I agreed with him, because in my experience wood stored indoors will last for long periods of time without any negative effect on the wood. As an example I mentioned I had some other deciduous hardwood stored indoors for many years which is still in fine condition and in my case anyway, with no bugs or ants.

Without saying so in my response (I get wordy enough as it is anyway, lol!) I already assumed that I would be able to also store ash wood successfully, even if they were left in lengths of 6 - 15 feet (length depending on diameter as to what I can lift and carry).

I think there was a difference in the discussion of storing the wood (as Lees Wood-Co and I were talking about), and your post about how long it would take to dry out? That isn't an issue for me, even if it takes 2 years to dry out in some cases. I have so much of it, including enough cut to burn now that a longer seasoning period would not be an issue. The barn is dry, with a cement floor, so no problems with damp or mold.

Now, with regard to the ashborer beetle in this area (I'm in the area of ground zero, or pretty darn close to it) here is some additional info. I am saying this after reading up on the problem for several years as my intention was to save at least some of these ash trees. I spent many hundreds of dollars on various drench chemicals and with drilled-in pellet treatments (Acecap 75) over a 3 year period, all to no avail. Every one of these ash trees died, except the very largest of them (3+' in diameter) that are hanging on, and those will be done after this season given the near non-existant leafing out, and the scale on the bark.

This area of Michigan, while still under quarantine, is also considered a lost cause. There is no way to stop the beetle or control it in this area. The beetle is moving on however, because the trees here in my area are already dead. The trees on my property that I intend to cut and store are standing dead, most have been so for a year or more already.

The information in the website you mentioned is essentially correct, but not exactly 100% descriptive. Here is the writeup from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, and a few select sections:

http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/pest_al/eab/eab.pdf

An exotic beetle from Asia was discovered in July 2002 feeding on ash (Fraxinus spp.) trees in southeastern Michigan. It was identified as Agrilus planipennis Fairmaire (Coleoptera: Buprestidae). Larvae feed in the cambium between the bark and wood, producing galleries that eventually girdle and kill branches and entire trees

and,

After hatching, first instar larvae chew through the bark and into the cambial region. Larvae feed on phloem and the outer sapwood for several weeks. The S-shaped feeding gallery winds back and forth, becoming progressively wider as the larva grows (Fig. 3). Galleries are packed with fine, sawdust-like frass. Individual galleries often extend over an area that is 20 to 30 cm in length, though the length of the affected area can range from 10 to 50 cm or longer.

The larvae don't eat bark. They eat phloem and sapwood, which are the parts of the tree that transfers nutrients via capillary action. When the phoem and outer sapwood are gone the tree dies because it can no longer transfer these nutrients. At the same time, ashborer larvae have nothing to eat in a dead tree. The adult beetle doesn't bother with the dead tree, but goes on to find a live one. Since these trees have been standing dead for over a year, beetles won't be an issue even if the cut logs slow-season for a longer period in my barn. The beetle is migrating and expanding its range because of this, but is not hanging around areas that are already decimated; they are looking for new food sources for their babies. Even if they hang around (here) the larvae won't survive because all the ash trees are gone.

Because I have so many trees to remove (well over 100), and can't physically get all that done (cut, split, stacked) and then store it for many years on my own, my only logical option was to cut them down and move them in sections as long as I can handle on my own, and stack them in the barn until I can get to them little by little.