Dutchwest Cast non-cat stoves..... Please shed some light...

Dumbfishguy said:

My 2478 an I are still getting to know eachother . I need cold to make her relax and let her hair down . She s young built 2008 Plastic handle
She s picky about her men um wood . I wasent prepared for her . But she s here and cant leave so Im gonna learn how to please this lady
So far mine burns secondary lightly but its 48 outside .My installer talked to me (cus after this site I was all questions)She said we put in a high stack
straight shot up 22 feet . It will work in the winter . right now 84 in here
PS PHILLYS WON

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With a 22ft. pipe you will make her very happy!

Yea ok They are always happy . Just givem more wood . Yea right lol

Dumbfishguy said:

My 2478 an I are still getting to know eachother . I need cold to make her relax and let her hair down . She s young built 2008 Plastic handle
She s picky about her men um wood . I wasent prepared for her . But she s here and cant leave so Im gonna learn how to please this lady
So far mine burns secondary lightly but its 48 outside .My installer talked to me (cus after this site I was all questions)She said we put in a high stack
straight shot up 22 feet . It will work in the winter . right now 84 in here

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Yeah, expect one year or more to get to know your DW non-cat. What kind of stack do you have, masonry or metal? If its metal, you'll draft much quicker than w/ masonry. And on the downdraft design, drafting condition (outside air temp/pressure, stack height, setup of your stack, etc.) is more crucial than anything. Probably a tie w/ the quality of your seasoned cord wood. Unless you have a near perfect setup, it wont draft well enough for secondary combustion above 40 degrees.

Was there still to-be-burned fuel burning at the time you recorded the 275-300 temps? Did you happen to visually inspect the emissions coming out of the stack after closing the bypass? It's difficult to say without more information whether you truly had achieved secondary combustion.

Typically in optimum conditions with a firebox of active splits, proper coal bed, etc., I see flue gas temps of 1200+ when secondary combustion occurs properly. There are only two occasions when I see temps as low as 300 with the bypass closed. The first is when all the fuel has been spent, and there are just coals burning out. As there is nothing to reburn and no fuel to burn, its basically just dying out. Normally in winter I'd have reloaded before then so I wouldnt have to bring everything back up to temp before expecting secondary combustion.

The second is what we've documented as the 'everburn stall'. This is where you have plenty of splits in the firebox w/ the bypass open and the stove is up to temp, the splits properly burning, coal bed deep enough, etc. You then close the bypass to begin secondary combustion, but it only lasts for 10-15 seconds before the flue gas temp drops rapidly from 1100+ down to 300-400. You see the occasional flame in the firebox, but not very much. The visible emissions coming out of the stack will quickly go from virtually non-existent to dark & generally unclean and the velocity will also drop off drastically. This is because the stove did not draft properly for a variety of reasons and 'stalled' out. The temps were far too low to achieve secondary combustion, hence the dirty emissions from the stack.

The best thing to do at this point is to open the bypass and re-examine your fire while the temps are climbing, splits are catching again, etc. There are numerous threads that you can read up on that discuss how to properly make 'everburn' work. In short, proper fuel, sufficient coal bed & orientation, splits coaled sufficiently, and favorable outdoor conditions for drafting are essential else it WILL stall. You'll have a long 'burn' time, but basically your fire will be smoldering and its creosote central in your stack.

TB,

I believe that 17-18" is too close. I hope the pros can chime in on this....

1100 deg. mentioned is internal flue temp. With the everburn working properly you should see external/magnetic pipe temp between 400-550*

trailblaze said:

there were 2-3 red glowing logs in the firebox... it never smoldered out though... kept going i assume till it was all gone...

lets put it this way... if the flue temps actually hit 1100 degrees i need to get more wall protection

at 450-500 the walls are freaking hot...i'm about 17-18 inches away from the wall to the edge of my stove pipe

i've never seen my flue temps over 500-525

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I should have asked this before....are you measuring your flu w/ a surface or probe thermometer? The temps I was referring to were w/ a probe thermometer, so actually measuring the flu gas vs. the temperature of your wall pipe. I also have a magnetic (surface) thermometer on my single wall pipe. The flue gas temp is typically magnetic temp * 2.5, so at 300 degrees magnetic, flu gas is 750 as an approximate for comparison.

if you have a probe and are getting max temps of 500, then you arent running the stove hot enough to get secondary combustion. Non-cats need minimum of 1100 to achieve secondary combustion. 500F for a magnetic is close to the minimum.

Keep in mind that even during what I refer to as a 'stall', the fire doesn't go out. The logs will still be glowing as some primary combustion is occurring in the firebox. But when my flu gas drops below 900, typically the stack emissions start to become black & slow. Check your emissions w/ a flashlight (if night time) at the top of the stack. If you see nothing but distortions from heat or a little white steam, then you're in good shape. If you see dark smoke, grey/black or generally unpleasant looking, then you are building up creosote at an alarming level in your stack most likely.

Are you hearing a faint rumbling sounds coming from the back of the stove? That rumble is the sound of secondary combustion occurring, it can be quite loud with a fully loaded firebox, even w/ the primary air supply dampered all the way down. You should also see the occasional 'explosion' in the firebox if you have a glass front stove. The gases will build up in the top of the firebox w/ the bypass closed, and then occasional reach a critical mass and ignite. It's normally a slow, rolling ignition of flame that isnt attached to/touched any of the splits. I think it's quite beautiful & mesmerizing, not just for its obvious beauty, but its also a sign that my stove is happy and burning optimally.

In general, it's better to run the stove 'less efficiently' with the bypass open, dampered down, and small amount of visible emissions than it is to close the bypass and let it cool off which produces creosote & an unclean burn.

I'm not a pro - but I do wonder - did you follow the clearances in your manual? Was this install permitted and/or inspected?
As for those temps - there are other variables as well, like how high up the flue you are measuring from. Your best indicators of secondary combustion are the "everburn rumble" which can always be heard if you stick your ear up to the secondary combustion air intake (bottom rear of stove), and of course emissions (i.e. if its working you will see no smoke). I demonstrate both of these in my videos (links at the bottom of my webpage).

Diabel said:

TB,

I believe that 17-18" is too close. I hope the pros can chime in on this....

1100 deg. mentioned is internal flue temp. With the everburn working properly you should see external/magnetic pipe temp between 400-550*

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hang some tin foil on the wall behind the pipe for the time being. Ther will bounce some of the heat away till this is over tonight.

By the way it is good to know that lil stove of yours can crank the heat!

trailblaze said:

according to my owners man...

top exit, flue collar and heat shield with double wall pipe lowers it to 7 1/2 in to combustible wall


if i just added the heat shield.... i should at least gain 2-3 inches and fall below my recommended clearances....


if i do wall protections as durock right on drywall i should still be safe.... i plan on adding shielding the pipes... and then something else like wall protection or new pipe...

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Yes you can go up a wall and shoot in some durock, cement board might be better and tile over it woud look nice too. If you can install a stove your self you can tile a wall. Dummys like me do it every now and then and people like how it looks. You will be good at it by the time this is over. About $90 - $200 and you can get it done depending on the tile you use.

I think you got the right idea, double wall pipe and the wall protection changes the situation from "probably safe" to plain old safe.

for now if you have tin foil handy hang it in a manner that it is about and inch from the walls. tack it to the wall since you are gonna cover them later anyway and fold a bit of foil under the hanging foil to make hang a tad away so you can at least go to bed tonight.

trailblaze said:

according to my owners man...

top exit, flue collar and heat shield with double wall pipe lowers it to 7 1/2 in to combustible wall


if i just added the heat shield.... i should at least gain 2-3 inches and fall below my recommended clearances....


if i do wall protections as durock right on drywall i should still be safe.... i plan on adding shielding the pipes... and then something else like wall protection or new pipe...

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I was surprised how small the UL clearances are for this stove. Mine is close to the wall (cement board) and the wall gets warm above the point where the through-wall connector is (horizontal exit obviously). But behind the stove where the secondary combustion chamber is, the wall is barely warm at all. I think DW did a great job w/ the "built in" shield on the back that houses the vents for the blower kit & the such. Adds a lot of thermal protection.

I'm upgrading to a double wall pipe (retrofitting current design) this year b4 the season gets going. Even though the fire marshal signed off on the single wall, I'm still uncomfortable with the heated pipe in the wall and how hot it can get after several days on continual use.

And yes, it's amazing how much heat this stove throws out. My living room can easily get to 90+ if the house is all closed up. I keep the garage door open, which is next to the stove. Let's in a lot of fresh air to feed the stove, and keeps the garage toasty warm (above 55) in the winter. I also crack some strategic windows in the living room to increase convection currents and heat the rest of the house and provide more fresh air as well.

Here is what I had to do in order to pass the building code & ins. req.

Med vs. Large and a few other questions

It seams that most of the complaint's about the duchwest everburn have come from the large model? I have a medium ( bought in 2008 but I think it is the 2007 model ) and it works great. I have had no prob with the everburn system so far. I am still working on my burn times though. Last night was my best, I loaded up after the Pats game ended, around 7 and I still had some red coals at 1 am ( still not the 10 hour burn time advertised). One prob I did have - I turned the air intake all the way down before bed and when it burned out it blackened by glass. I can't imagine it was pumping carousal into my chimney since it was just coals at that time but the temp came down enough at the end of the burn to blacken my glass. Any ideas on what to do about this.

Is this a stove that I just can't turn all the way down? Also what is the best thing to clean the glass, Windex?

I had mine installed DUH dumbfish guy , My walls are cold behind stove I have the vc heat shield in place A little warm up the stack Ill keep checking

BeGreen said:

That's the spirit trailblaze. Understand that we get more people on the site that have issues with stoves than those that are perfectly happy with them. People often come here to get problems worked out and solved. There is a certain bias toward negative reports because of this. Regardless, there are a lot of satisfied VC stove owners. Some absolutely love them. It's possible you may actually end up really liking your stove too.

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Sorry, I have to say that mine are no more quirkey and difficult than my F500 or Englander. some people just cross thread lightbulbs, and have ahrd time with the right end of a screwdriver.

trailblaze said:

Hanko said:

and have ahrd time with the right end of a screwdriver.

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what about the left end? thats a tough end to work with too

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I love my douchewest medium, you have problems with yours? ILL bet you dont. yep the left sides a hollatacker sometimes