My russian fireplace / masonry stove
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Backpack09 said:
Tulikivi now offers some sort of electric element so you can "plug in" your masonry heater to keep it warm for a few days while you're gone. My neighbor has a Tulikivi but wants to junk it instead of jacking his electric, which I can understand. He's home for a few days then gone for a few, so the thing cools down and is a pain to warm up. By the time all the stone has warmed the house he's ready to leave again.
The other thing he found is you need a really good draft. Even w/ a newspaper priming fire he had a lot of trouble in anything but really cold, dry weather. But that's really no different from having a good draft for your wood stove, I suppose.
In Europe it's called Kachel Ofen.
A somewhat similar idea of heating a room
Enclosed a link to a pro with a nice picture gallery of his work.
http://www.ofenbaupruenster.it/de/index.html
here a swedish one
http://www.dataphone.se/~ncteknik/We_are_setting_up_a_Swedish_ceramic_stove.html
hope you guy's get some idea's for your home
A somewhat similar idea of heating a room
Enclosed a link to a pro with a nice picture gallery of his work.
http://www.ofenbaupruenster.it/de/index.html
here a swedish one
http://www.dataphone.se/~ncteknik/We_are_setting_up_a_Swedish_ceramic_stove.html
hope you guy's get some idea's for your home
"Kachelof(t)ens" are another breed from a Masory /Russian Fireplace/Stove . Similar idea of mass but the kacheloftens are iron and tile wood stoves that load from another room. It was a job for the servants not so long ago.
Plenty of stuff online.
Plenty of stuff online.
gpcollen1
Minister of Fire
Just to set a couple of things correct:
A Kachelofen (correct german spelling) is completely build with tiles, as well as firebrick (Schamottestein) on the inside.
Or to be precise, around 1775 they started to experiment with a firebox made out of Iron and a surround made of Kacheln/Tiles.
That's what most people have in mind if one speaks of a Kachelofen.
My link shows a professional who builds them the old fashioned way. (Not affiliated - but like his ideas)
Wanted only to point out that the concept on the Masonry/Russion Fireplace Stove is similar to a Kachelofen just a little bit simpler.
Interesting stuff.
Its been 25 out at my place the last three nights. The mason stove is keeping it 68-74 in there and in the 3 days I have burned less than a wheel barrow of wood.
Its been 25 out at my place the last three nights. The mason stove is keeping it 68-74 in there and in the 3 days I have burned less than a wheel barrow of wood.
pelletfan said:
That's somewhat true. The actual "kachelofens" ( spelled differently in the language of the country in Europe) that I've seen in Germany and Switzerland and Norway are tile covered wood stoves. They're bigger than what we think of as "Scandinavian" wood stoves. They are set in the largest room in a home, and loaded from outside of the house. The kachelofens ( or kacheloftens ) I've seen do have air controls like a regular wood stove, but smaller fireboxes because of the smaller trees in most of Europe. No links, actual visits. The principle of a Masonry Firepalce/Stove or Russian Fireplace is this: one open draft large hot fire transferring the heat to a very large mass, then allowing that heated mass to pass the heat to the home. Wood stoves burn differently with air and draft controls.
Most European forests were clear cut and denuded due to diseases over centuries of hard use. Only recently has Europe begun to re-forest naturally and by intensive planting unfortunately in bureaucratic rows and single species. And following North American Forestry Science, Europe recently, in the past decades, has followed our methods of "woody debris" fertilization, or leaving most of the 'waste' from cut trees on the ground. It is law now, for example, in Switzerland. Before, most forests in Europe looked like parks: swept 'clean' like our city parklands. It made for unfertile soil ripe for the spread of diseases and a lack of diversity.
PS Neat web site. Where we have sufficient forest resources, pellet stoves are not recommended except for urban environs like
NYC.
Some objections to pellet stoves: supply and cost, operation noise, maintenance, non-classic designs, BTU output
compared to a similar wood stove.
I forgot to ask, if anyone knows where I can look for a new door for this stove let me know. I would like to get one that has adjustable vents in it. When I first start the fire I leave the door open 1/2 inch and draft full open. That is like blowing on the fire hard. If I open the door 100% it still blows on it but not very hard. I know the point of these is a HOT FAST fire, so blowing on it hard is preferable to get such a high temp from such a small amount of wood. I would rather do this with adjustable vents rather than leaving the door open 1/2 inch.
Then when I have coals, shut the vents to keep the heat in the stove.
I noticed a couple people in this thread that may be close to me. If you ever want to come check this unit out for whatever reason, the invitation is there. I live in Berkshire NY
When looking thru a few websites I seen one design that works with a pellet stove! It traps the heat from that. I am wondering if one could construct a mason stove to work with a coal stove. The exhaust gases from that are hot, wonder what would happen if you vented it thru a mason stove, the brick would be hot from the exhaust gases.
Then when I have coals, shut the vents to keep the heat in the stove.
I noticed a couple people in this thread that may be close to me. If you ever want to come check this unit out for whatever reason, the invitation is there. I live in Berkshire NY
When looking thru a few websites I seen one design that works with a pellet stove! It traps the heat from that. I am wondering if one could construct a mason stove to work with a coal stove. The exhaust gases from that are hot, wonder what would happen if you vented it thru a mason stove, the brick would be hot from the exhaust gases.
Martin Strand III
New Member
BeGreen said:
"HEAT IS HEAT"? Shame on you BeGreen!
Here’s an old goat’s interpretation on how part of our world works:
BASIC PHYSICS REVIEW OF HEAT
First, realize “heat” is the result of motion between minute particles of matter and that it is constantly being exchanged in an endless circle wanting and seeking thermal equilibrium. “Temperature” measures intensity of heat and, indirectly, the amount of motion in the particles.
Gases, like the air we breathe, exchange heat mostly by convection, a means of flow, whereby cold gas particles have less movement and thus are closer together (read more dense) than warm air particles (less dense) accounting for the fact warm air rises and cold air sinks. When a warm air particle (molecule) contacts a cold air particle, its higher heat energy in the form of molecular vibration is transferred to the cold air particle, which then becomes warmer and rises with its less dense cousins. This energy transfer, per molecular vibrations, moves like a wave through the cooler particles as they warm up. There is significant space between air molecules, so this process of molecular collisons passing on energy takes time and causes air currents as warmer molecules rise and cooler ones sink. In the process, as the wamer particles contact fixed objects in the room, these absorb the vibration energy and begin to warm.
This method of heat transfer (convection) is indirect since the heat transfer goes through air containing much space between molecules. This continual movement of air from a hot stove causing convective air currents can result in drafty indoor conditions with temperature zones (aka “indoor weather"). Liquids also exchange heat chiefly via convection. Particles are closer together than in air but the same phenomenon occurs explaining why cooler water is near the bottom of a lake and warmer water on the surface. But in this example, wind can blow warm surface water away resulting in the temporary surface feeling cold as colder water rises to replace the displaced warmer surface water.
Solids exchange heat by radiation and, with direct contact, conduction. In its quest for equilibrium, heat transfers via conduction when two solid objects are in contact. Vibrations from the warmer object molecules spread by contacting the cooler objects molecules thereby increasing their vibrations and heat which, spread like a wave through the object. The degree of vibrations, from the amount of heat, can be substantial. If a very hot object (hot metal stove) with considerable heat energy (lots of vibrating molecules) is touched by a finger, the molecules on the surface of the finger can vibrate so fast that those molecules separate resulting in a burn to the finger. Friction is another way to increase particle movement resulting in heat by conduction. For example, experience the warmth generated by rubbing your hands together.
Heat transfer by radiation is a slightly different story. To understand it, realize that any matter with a temperature above Absolute Zero (0* K, or -273* F) gives off “infrared radiation”, not seen in the visible spectrum of light, but explained by quantum mechanics as a stream of extremely small photons having properties of waves and particles, maybe both, maybe alternating between the two. So small are these photons that it is debated (when I was in school, please, update me) whether they are pure energy or particles, either travelling at phenomenal speeds. When these photons collide with other molecules or particles of matter, they cause increased particle movement and more heat.
As mentioned, gases, like air, have relatively enormous amounts of space between the molecules of the gas. Liquids have less space between molecules and solids even less (solids being generally more dense than liquids or a gas). The tighter the molecules are packed together in a piece of matter, the easier it is to absorb any radiant heat photon which may strike it, making it warmer. Conversely, in air, the molecules are relatively far apart making the chances of a radiant energy photon hitting the gas particle (oxygen molecule, nitrogen molecule, etc.) much smaller.
Hot objects radiate photons of greater amplitude (like a sine wave) than cooler objects. A photon from a very hot source has a greater chance of colliding with a particle of matter, like an oxygen or nitrogen molecule in room air, in a given distance than a photon from a cooler source.
This explains why a hot metal stove at 550* F tends to heat the air around it and induce convection air currents versus a cooler stove at 180* F which will radiate photons with less amplitude, have less chance of colliding with air molecules over a given distance and can heat solid objects further away from the source than the hot metal stove.
That’s the story and I’m stickin’ to it: why radiant heat has been heralded as “more healthy” (like the heat from the sun) and the air remains still at a more even temperature than convection heat which causes draftiness, temperature zones, etc.
Aye,
Marty
Albert Einstein once said, “Nothing happens, until something moves.”
Hogwildz
Minister of Fire
Sorry man, that was so long and boring I could not bring myself to read the whole thing.
Can we just say your right, make you feel better, and move on?
I like the gentleman's heater, whatever whoever wants to call it. It serves him well, and it came with the house.
Seems simple enough to me. We all can't afford to build our own place and a new masonry heater to go with it.
Heating ones home by what means by which he has, is the best a man can do.
He's hopefully saving money and staying warm while doing so, that is the bottom line.
Take the debate to the ash can and cut the guy some slack.
Can we just say your right, make you feel better, and move on?
I like the gentleman's heater, whatever whoever wants to call it. It serves him well, and it came with the house.
Seems simple enough to me. We all can't afford to build our own place and a new masonry heater to go with it.
Heating ones home by what means by which he has, is the best a man can do.
He's hopefully saving money and staying warm while doing so, that is the bottom line.
Take the debate to the ash can and cut the guy some slack.
Martin Strand III
New Member
Adios Pantalones
Minister of Fire
I think the difference in feel (convection, convection, radiation) has been adressed already in this thread.
I'll only briefly address your take on the spectroscopy of heating with wood, because it's a bit off base to get any deeper than that, IMO. A blackbody radiation source point of maximum emission decreases in wavelength at higher temperatures, but overlaps and is more intense at the foremer maximum wavelength observed at a lower temperature. So- the envelope is larger, and contains the subset of the lower temperature emission spectrum.
(http://www.scitec.uk.com/)
If what you're saying was true, then the sun would be a poor radiation heater because it's a hotter source that emits through the atmosphere- ya? It's probable that I've stood in front of hotter contained fires than most people- you can feel the heat from 15-20 feet when it's 2300F
We all know that different sources feel different.
p.s.- I agree with hogz- the whole masonry heater thing is pretty much pissa.
I'll only briefly address your take on the spectroscopy of heating with wood, because it's a bit off base to get any deeper than that, IMO. A blackbody radiation source point of maximum emission decreases in wavelength at higher temperatures, but overlaps and is more intense at the foremer maximum wavelength observed at a lower temperature. So- the envelope is larger, and contains the subset of the lower temperature emission spectrum.
(http://www.scitec.uk.com/)
If what you're saying was true, then the sun would be a poor radiation heater because it's a hotter source that emits through the atmosphere- ya? It's probable that I've stood in front of hotter contained fires than most people- you can feel the heat from 15-20 feet when it's 2300F
We all know that different sources feel different.
p.s.- I agree with hogz- the whole masonry heater thing is pretty much pissa.
Adios Pantalones
Minister of Fire
Adios Pantalones
Minister of Fire
See- that's what I like about Fossil- he doesn't hold a grudge. Plus he's the patron god of both the elderly and woodshed interior design.
sgcsalsero
Feeling the Heat
arcticcatmatt said:
Wow, I can go thru one wheelbarrow a day or more at 25 degrees (approximating 100-125lbs of wood) and the thermostat never gets past 64 . . so good for you! There have been some 'heated' posts with these beasties, I'm jealous you have one and hope that you stick with using it.
I think a quick short fire is the best, no need to damper down. Tempcast has some info. on how hot things need to get (the hotter the better I think is the goal). Maybe check this book out http://search.barnesandnoble.com/bo...-Masonry-Stoves/David-Lyle&ISBN=9781890132095
To each his own, some people spend 10-15k on just putting a regular 'ole chimney, fireplace, and gas logs on a new addition . . my neighbors did just that last year.
Good luck.
tutu_sue
New Member
Your stove appears to be a Russian Vertical Channel Masonry Heater (see ASTM International). You can find a booklet called Homeowner's Safety Manual and Burning Guide for Masonry Heaters, $7.50 at the MHA bookstore.
My sister's inlaws are from Finland and the lifestyle there is more suitable to the expense and operation of this type of 24/7 heater. Smaller, efficient homes and the Mrs. is home during the day to keep the stove going. They don't go far from home in the winter due to the snow, ice and frigid temps and the price of gasoline (petrol) has been very expensive there forever.
Do your research and learn to operate this unit to it's full and safe potential. I think you're lucky to have it.
My sister's inlaws are from Finland and the lifestyle there is more suitable to the expense and operation of this type of 24/7 heater. Smaller, efficient homes and the Mrs. is home during the day to keep the stove going. They don't go far from home in the winter due to the snow, ice and frigid temps and the price of gasoline (petrol) has been very expensive there forever.
Do your research and learn to operate this unit to it's full and safe potential. I think you're lucky to have it.
Marty
Feeling the Heat
8nrider said:
Ithica is purdy .... but way too many libs....
Sorry, just try'n to break things up here ;-P
Martin Strand III
New Member
Adios Pantalones said:I think the difference in feel (convection, convection, radiation) has been adressed already in this thread.
I'll only briefly address your take on the spectroscopy of heating with wood, because it's a bit off base to get any deeper than that, IMO. A blackbody radiation source point of maximum emission decreases in wavelength at higher temperatures, but overlaps and is more intense at the foremer maximum wavelength observed at a lower temperature. So- the envelope is larger, and contains the subset of the lower temperature emission spectrum.
(http://www.scitec.uk.com/)
If what you're saying was true, then the sun would be a poor radiation heater because it's a hotter source that emits through the atmosphere- ya? It's probable that I've stood in front of hotter contained fires than most people- you can feel the heat from 15-20 feet when it's 2300F
We all know that different sources feel different.
p.s.- I agree with hogz- the whole masonry heater thing is pretty much pissa.
WOW!
Have things changed, or has our interpretation of things changed, since I went to school...
Aye,
Marty
arcticcatmatt said:
For all the naysayers, like many tools, the benefit depends on how you will use it. This masonry heater can heat the whole house and is well-suited for Ithaca. Sure, there is a skewed cost benefit when you look at the cost of building such a stove, but Arcticcatmatt didn't have to build it! His house already has it, and he is lucky! (Except, from his photos of the firebrick, it looks like it burns $5 notes. Yikes!)
I have both a large stone fireplace (w/insert) and a masonry fireplace in my house. There is no way I would build a house today with all that masonry, but if you can acquire an older property that has this stuff, all the better.
I think you will really enjoy using it, Matt.
Adios Pantalones
Minister of Fire
Marty S said:
LOL- maybe you went to school before Max Planck came up with his law of thermodynamics (1900 or so). Or maybe the sun didn't feel hot back then- times really have changed!
Martin Strand III
New Member
Adios Pantalones said:
That is the understatement of the day! I remember back in '17, years before the BIG crash, the air was pure, a man's word was good, kids actually respected their elders, the water was clean and fish didn't have 3 ears...
Aye, Marty
Had to bust out my camera.. remember the guy in this thread that said he had kids getting out of the shower and warm just doesn't cut it.. a mason stove is junk
hahahaha.. I got out of my shower last night. Felt pretty good
thats inside temp over outside temp.. 4 hrs later it was 14 outside and still 79/80 inside. 100% mason stove heat.
hahahaha.. I got out of my shower last night. Felt pretty good
thats inside temp over outside temp.. 4 hrs later it was 14 outside and still 79/80 inside. 100% mason stove heat.
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