basement wood drying test ?

bokehman said:

woodconvert said:

I did a test yesterday regarding this post. I took multiple pieces of relatively green oak (red oak) that were split in the fall. I don't have a moisture meter so I don't know what their moisture content was to begin with other than ain't no way in hell would I have burnt them (very heavy, obviously wet). Anyhow, I placed them next to the stove yesterday at four o' clock. This morning I threw a stick on the fire and it lit right when it hit the coals and is burning excellent.

Click to expand...

So what was it that was easy to light, a red oak split that was "very heavy" and "obviously wet", or "a stick"?

Personally, I don't believe a word I've read in this thread. I've got wood here that was cut and split in the spring. It's sat under a cloudless sky in the desert sun with RH lower than 35% and temperatures in the 90's every day, but it's still not seasoned yet. I can't see how 24 hours in a stove room could cause any noticeable change to the level of seasoning. Or maybe it's just that my idea of seasoned wood is very different to everyone else who has posted here.

Click to expand...

Well, i've only been doing it for years and scepticism is a good thing on your part...honestly. But it's easy enough to test yourself. I only use wood for heat. Now, Michigan isn't the coldest place on earth for sure, but it does have it's moments. I have an exterior masonry chimney and i'm not running a cat in my stove..if my wood was wet i'd have creosote dripping from my ears. That aint the case.

Try it, you may not be so sceptical.

So what was it that was easy to light, a red oak split that was "very heavy" and "obviously wet", or "a stick"?

Click to expand...

It/they were multiple pieces that were half rounds 8" +/- across the flat. Not twigs.

Early on, before I learned to buy green wood a winter in advance, I dealt with the wet wood thing. At one point I placed some of the wet wood on top of my stove to dry it out in a hurry. To my surprise, it actually caught fire.

Lesson #1 learned: wet wood may dry faster than you think when exposed to heat.

Lesson #2: Experimenting is better than listening to people argue on the web, as long as you are close by to deal with your miscalculations.

woodconvert said:

Well, i've only been doing it for years and scepticism is a good thing on your part...honestly.

Click to expand...

Please explain this, what is the difference between the environment in your stove and the desert sun, 90ºF+, and RH below 35% that causes your unseasoned wood to magically season in 24 hours when mine is not ready after 9 months. And by the way just because wood burns doesn't make it seasoned. All my unseasoned wood burns if I put it over a bed of coals, it's just that it's not bone dry to the core. As I said above maybe our concepts of seasoned wood are very different.

If you have to dry some wood in the basement as opposed to just storing it - use a fan or two and a dehumidifier - even with the stove.

Ok - Paranoid Noob question.

I have a lovely big pile of wood outside this year that I just bought a couple months ago. Based on my reading here I'm estimating that the concept of "seasoned" the seller used was along the lines of "cut this spring/early summer, at least a couple months before selling to you" for this load of oak. For example, some pieces do sizzle when I put them on the coals. To be fair, a few pieces are nice and light and burst into flame on the coals, but... So at this point I could go out and try and buy another years worth of wood (hmm.. what are my odds now of finding REAL seasoned oak in Dec and getting anything near a fair price eh?) or I could perhaps try to take suggestions from this thread to dry out some of this wood as I go. I plan to burn 23/7 (can't expect perfection my first year eh?).

So, here is my question for all you gurus. IF I go setting up a rack next to my stove to try to dry out some wood as I go, how close to my stove can I safely put it without fear of it deciding to burn early? Seems closer would be better in terms of drying it out, but I would rather like to sleep at night knowing the fire is only in the stove where it belongs. If I simply treat it like another side wall for clearance purposes I would imagine it should be safe, but then will it get enough heat to be worth the effort?

I figure I'm burning on the order of 20-30 splits a day at this point (still haven't figured out how to get stove to run efficiently) so if I need to keep a few days' supply next to the stove that is going to be quite a wall of wood and keeping the stock rotated (i.e. burning the driest first) each day could turn into a nightmare!

Thoughts, suggestions?

author="bokehman" date="1227888236"]

woodconvert said:

Well, i've only been doing it for years and scepticism is a good thing on your part...honestly.

Click to expand...

Please explain this, what is the difference between the environment in your stove and the desert sun, 90ºF+, and RH below 35% that causes your unseasoned wood to magically season in 24 hours

Click to expand...

I would imagine the 500+ degrees F is part of the magic.

And by the way just because wood burns doesn't make it seasoned.

Click to expand...

GET OUTA HERE...

All my unseasoned wood burns if I put it over a bed of coals, it's just that it's not bone dry to the core. As I said above maybe our concepts of seasoned wood are very different.

Click to expand...

As I said previously, I have an exterior masonry chimney..if my wood wasn't seasoned to your specs I'd have a creosote problem. I do not. Also, if my wood was not seasoned I wouldn't be able to run the stove at 500+ F. That's not the case either.

I agree with bokehman--there's no free lunch, and there's no way to season an unseasoned split in 24 hours at less than 100°F. The diffusion of water through wood takes a finite amount of time, and doesn't really speed up until you raise the vapor pressure of the water. Kiln drying operations for firewood usually run 150°F at low RH for several days, or over 200°F for one day.

I think we're talking past each other--if you're getting your splits well over 150F, maybe they will be pretty dry in a day or two, but having a lot of wood close enough to the stove, running that hot, doesn't seem so safe. Seeing the wood light off is telling you you got the surface pretty dry, but is a poor indication of core dryness. Of course, we all know that we can burn up a 'wet' split in a hot fire with no ill effect--except a few lost BTUs and a slightly cooler burn. Lots of folks will stretch their seasoned wood by just mixing in the less seasoned in small amounts, and eat the small loss in efficiency.

The bigger challenge is for those folks who don't have enough seasoned wood to mix in to keep a hot burn. E.g. you bought a bunch of wood which was split the day before. If your wood is partially seasoned already (so few/no bugs), and not a slow seasoning species (oak) then a couple weeks (not days) indoors can make a big difference. The moisture released can be a plus for humidification, if its not in excess. Not really feasible for 24/7 heaters, but I think you 'finishing' a cord or so indoors in a season is no big deal, if you've got some warm, well ventilated space. Contraindicated for moldy wood, or mold sensitive burners.

FWIW I have been burning oak for 4 years now and have tried to dry it out next to my stove and my insert. There is no way you can take unseasoned OAK and season it next to a stove in 24 hours. Ive had splits next to a stove for days and then proceeded to cut it open and measure the center and found it still peg the moisture meter. Sure, I could burn it, and did, but I am also sure I made more creosote than I should have. I just hate to see misinformation passed on to newbies that may have aspirations of trying this. Learn from our mistakes it takes a LONG time to season oak.

What seems to work for me is when the stove top is around 300- 400, I put a couple of pieces that are going to go in next on top and rotate them on all sides for a period of time. Before they go on top I put them under the hot stove and they get the radiated heat from the stove for maybe 1 or 2 burns. Makes a difference for me.

woodconvert said:

I would imagine the 500+ degrees F is part of the magic.

Click to expand...

That's the temperature of your stove, not your stove room.

Ok, think about this: If it takes 24 hours to season wood in your stove room that means you only need to stay 24 hours ahead of the game. Lets say about 100 lbs of wood. That wood has an MC of 40% instead of 20% so it needs to loose 20% of its weight (20 lbs of water). That's 2.5 US gallons. Right, now go get a large bucket and put 2.5 gallons of water in it. Put it say 3 feet from your stove (safe combustible distance?) and see how long it takes to evaporate. I would think you would be lucky to loose a pint in 24 hours.

Slow1 said:

For example, some pieces do sizzle when I put them on the coals.

Click to expand...

If it sizzles don't use it, it's not even semi-seasoned.

Slow1 said:

"cut this spring/early summer, at least a couple months before selling to you" for this load of oak.

Click to expand...

Oak is good to burn about 2 years after it is split. Any shorter and it will be marginal.

Slow1 said:

try to dry out some wood

Click to expand...

Your wasting your time. See the other posters comments above.

Slow1 said:

still haven't figured out how to get stove to run efficiently

Click to expand...

Not surprising if your wood is not seasoned.

bokehman said:

Put it say 3 feet from your stove (safe combustible distance?) and see how long it takes to evaporate. I would think you would be lucky to loose a pint in 24 hours.

Click to expand...

Just to play Devil's advocate, that is not very scientific. The wood represents much more surface area than the bucket.

Typical firewood drying kilns heat the wood to around 200F and they move a lot of air to carry away the moisture. Even with these commercial kilns, the drying time is measured in days.

LLigetfa said:

Just to play Devil's advocate, that is not very scientific. The wood represents much more surface area than the bucket.

Click to expand...

I was going to explain with some maths but I want something simple and non-scientific. I did some sums earlier and my midday sun is about equal to being 3 feet from a stove putting out 20,000 BTU/hr.

LLigetfa said:

Typical firewood drying kilns heat the wood to around 200F and they move a lot of air to carry away the moisture. Even with these commercial kilns, the drying time is measured in days.

Click to expand...

I had a look on Wikipedia. It says 1 inch thick red oak is dried at 180ºF and takes 28 days.

bokehman said:

LLigetfa said:

Typical firewood drying kilns heat the wood to around 200F and they move a lot of air to carry away the moisture. Even with these commercial kilns, the drying time is measured in days.

Click to expand...

I had a look on Wikipedia. It says 1 inch thick red oak is dried at 180ºF and takes 28 days.

Click to expand...

That would be for lumber which you want to be stable and wouldn't want to warp. Firewood drying and/or heat treating is not as critical.

- Oh, ye of little faith-- why is it so easy to shoot down an idea simply because it may not mesh well with your own experiences?? No one telling you that this will work is trying to sell you a product-- they are simply relating their own experiences at trying to solve a problem situation that most woodburners sometimes find themselves in (IE lack f dry wood) & trying to share that hard- earned knowledge.
It would seem that some people are more concerned with defending positions that are indefensible (like the “flat earth” & Earth as the center of the universe concepts) without even really TRYING to really understand what is being said.
No one is trying to tell you this will work for every possible set of circumstances-- mine are unique to ME, as are everyone else’s. I think, perhaps that some of you naysayers are not fully integrating the information contained in these posts, and therefore are minimizing the effects of some of the circumstances-- (such as the sheer volume of hot air that a 600 lb mass of steel and refractory brick with a fan- forced air circulation that is “cruising” at 500-700 degrees 27/7 is capable of producing!!)
If I can find the time-- I will try to be a little more scientific about this and weigh some fresh-split wood on a daily basis til it stops losing weight--maybe that would convince the “doubters”, but probably not-------- as it was observed a long time ago[u]- “There are none so blind as those who WILL not see.[/u]

Best wishes.
Woodrat

I get green in January for the following year, if I wait 2 months & resplit a piece ,it seems to dry better/nicer than say the stuff I get in April or May & waited 2 months and resplit.

I have split pieces very small about 2-3 inches wide & after a couple of days or more by the stove, under the stove (never left unattended) it does dry out, no hissing or bubbling. Had to do that in a pinch one year.

Woodrat said:

- Oh, ye of little faith--

Click to expand...

Well... I think most everyone understands that heat combined with low RH will speed up the drying time... after all, that's what kiln drying is all about. However, contrary to your opinion, heat is not essential to wood drying. I find my wood stored in my woodshed dries more through the winter than the summer. Now, this assumption is not scientific as my only point of reference is the amount the pile shrinks and checks on the end grain.

I thought this thread started out with the concept of storing larger quantities of wood indoors near the stove, not of placing one or two pieces very near to it. Storing a cord or so of wood in a basement can raise the RH significantly (by it drying) so as to slow the rate of drying. As I mentioned, wood seeks its own equilibrium. At least my wood floors do.

If you lose moist air through leaks in your air/vapour barrier, you risk rotting your house. If your house is well sealed, the elevated humidity can still become an issue unless you vent with a HRV or by other means.

What is mostly unmentioned throughout this thread is that most proponents are not taking very green wood straight to their basements but rather wood that is partially seasoned but perhaps otherwise not dry enough. There is a big difference between unseasoned green wood and seasoned wet wood WRT the time it takes to dry.

ControlFreak said:

Early on, before I learned to buy green wood a winter in advance, I dealt with the wet wood thing. At one point I placed some of the wet wood on top of my stove to dry it out in a hurry. To my surprise, it actually caught fire.

Lesson #1 learned: wet wood may dry faster than you think when exposed to heat.

Lesson #2: Experimenting is better than listening to people argue on the web, as long as you are close by to deal with your miscalculations.

Click to expand...

- AMEN!!

CF--I missed your post til now because I was agitated-- You are much more "diplomatic " than I am!

Woodrat

bokehman said:

woodconvert said:

I would imagine the 500+ degrees F is part of the magic.

Click to expand...

That's the temperature of your stove, not your stove room.

Click to expand...

And the wood is 12" +/- from the stove. HOT..hot hot hot. I can't pick it up with my bare hands.

bokehman said:

woodconvert said:

I would imagine the 500+ degrees F is part of the magic.

Click to expand...

That's the temperature of your stove, not your stove room.

Right, now go get a large bucket and put 2.5 gallons of water in it. Put it say 3 feet from your stove (safe combustible distance?) and see how long it takes to evaporate.

Click to expand...

This may be true but for the most part you are not using evaporation, ie, when you put a piece of unseasoned wood on a fire the water in the wood expands from the heat and is driven out of the wood (hence the hissing and sizzling). You are doing the same thing just not as hot or as quick.. Like I said in one of my comments, you can litteraly get a small puddle of water on the hearth from heating it. It loses most of it's water that way, then checks up and THEN it's an evaporation process.

Y'all seem to be getting a little riled....not sure why.

1) Some folks are talking about leaving wood on their hearth (120-150°F) for a few hours and saying that it appears drier and lighter, lights off well in the stove, and burns up like dry wood.
2) Other folks are pointing out that nominal kiln drying times for firewood at those temps would be about 20 times longer.

Camp (1) are not reporting a measured weight reduction, nor readings from a moisture meter, taken in the center, with and without the hearth treatment.
Camp (2) are quoting theoretical results from the 'net, and being accused of being know-it-all types who ignore the evidence at hand.

--geek mode on

Kiln drying is usually considered to be limited by water diffusion, so, the drying process advances as the square root of time. So, in 1/20th of the time for full dryness, maybe a quarter of the wood (around the outside) would already be pretty dry. That could easily be enough to account for camp (1) findings--especially the dramatic light off. But, camp (2) is still right that the stove will not burn as hot or as clean as if truly dried wood were used.

In the end, wood stoves are pretty simple machines, that tolerate various fuel qualities. Most stoves can run pretty clean on 25% dry wood and 75% partially seasoned wood, especially if you up the air a little to compensate. The issue of losing a few BTUs (both due to less efficient burn AND to evaporate the water on the hearth wood) is really one of 'dealer's choice'.

Going back to the OP...a couple weeks indoors in a warm ventilated space significantly improves partially seasoned wood, seems safer than 'hearth drying', don't store so much inside to give excessive RH, and your mileage can and will vary depending on your wood species.

[quote author="LLigetfa" date="1227914447]There is a big difference between unseasoned green wood and seasoned wet wood WRT the time it takes to dry.[/quote]

Well put.

bokehman said:

woodconvert said:

Well, i've only been doing it for years and scepticism is a good thing on your part...honestly.

Click to expand...

Please explain this, what is the difference between the environment in your stove and the desert sun, 90ºF+, and RH below 35% that causes your unseasoned wood to magically season in 24 hours when mine is not ready after 9 months. And by the way just because wood burns doesn't make it seasoned. All my unseasoned wood burns if I put it over a bed of coals, it's just that it's not bone dry to the core. As I said above maybe our concepts of seasoned wood are very different.

Click to expand...

At the risk of seeming to be contrary, when in reality I do everything to avoid confrontational exchanges-- part of that apparent difference in our positions is probably as simple as what you mentioned above- , QUOTE--“it’s just that it’s not bone dry to the core. As I said above maybe our concepts of seasoned wood are very different.”I don’t believe that it’s necessary (or even necessarily desireable ) for firewood to be “bone dry” to be considered seasoned. Think about it--, my understanding and observations of the “gasification” or secondary burning process is that it needs a certain amount of moisture for it to occur. Bear in mind, that I am not a scientist, nor do I have the instrumentation to conclusively prove my observations& experiences over the course of 35 years of burning with several different stoves.
** I am sure there is someone out there who will object to my use of the term “gasification” in the previous statement-- so be it-- I can live with it.**
Again, without instrumentation, etc, etc.---- I am pretty certain that when I’m burning 24/7 at 500-700 degrees in my stove area- the RH is down near the 0% level
Combining: 1. almost nonexistent humidity
2. high ambient temperature
3. very high rate of airflow thru the wood stacksI find nothing magical about the drying times- just pure physics at work.

Best wishes, Woodrat