Taco twin tees

Rickard · Dec 3, 2008

I am in the middle of setting up my Biomax 40 wood boiler. I just need to finish connecting the storage tanks (waiting for the expansion tank). I have 2 500 gallon propane tanks that will be connected in parallel to the system.

I am using a primary/secondary loop. I have a wood boiler and a vegi/dino oil boiler as heat sources with solar heat to come in the near future. I have a separate hot water secondary loop and a multi-valve zoned heating secondary loop. I am using the Taco twin tees for the primary loop connections.

This system works very well. I am impressed with the ease of it. No ghost flows, no need for flow control valves or IFC circulators and ability to expand the system. The twin tees I am using are 1 1/4" with 3/4" tappings. Someone on this forum suggested that going from 1 1/4" to 3/4" and back again would have only a very small effect on restricting the flow of water if the 3/4" section was very short and that has borne out to be true in my system.

I am planning on using the idea of back to back reversed circulators to transfer to and from the storage tanks. The Taco twin tee makes this possible. I'll post how well it works when I get it running.

The photo is of my primary loop on the ceiling of the boiler room. The flow is clockwise with-WB and DHW on right;
low water, OB and heat on bottom with water fill on far left;
circulator and spirovent with expantion on left;
future solar and storage on top.

I have been on this forum for a little over a year and most of my posts have been to ask questions. The people on this forum are amazing. Thanks to all who contribute.

Dean

stee6043 · Dec 3, 2008

Now that is one compact primary loop!

mysticfalcon · Dec 3, 2008

I'm very curious to see how that turns out. I'm amazed that those twin tees will work set up so compactly like that. the extra expense for them looks like it would be made up for in space and the amount of pipe you need. But looking at them I see no reason why they wouldn't work just fine.

pybyr · Dec 4, 2008

Rickard said:
I am in the middle of setting up my Biomax 40 wood boiler. I just need to finish connecting the storage tanks (waiting for the expansion tank). I have 2 500 gallon propane tanks that will be connected in parallel to the system.

I am using a primary/secondary loop. I have a wood boiler and a vegi/dino oil boiler as heat sources with solar heat to come in the near future. I have a separate hot water secondary loop and a multi-valve zoned heating secondary loop. I am using the Taco twin tees for the primary loop connections.

This system works very well. I am impressed with the ease of it. No ghost flows, no need for flow control valves or IFC circulators and ability to expand the system. The twin tees I am using are 1 1/4" with 3/4" tappings. Someone on this forum suggested that going from 1 1/4" to 3/4" and back again would have only a very small effect on restricting the flow of water if the 3/4" section was very short and that has borne out to be true in my system.

I am planning on using the idea of back to back reversed circulators to transfer to and from the storage tanks. The Taco twin tee makes this possible. I'll post how well it works when I get it running.

The photo is of my primary loop on the ceiling of the boiler room. The flow is clockwise with-WB and DHW on right;
low water, OB and heat on bottom with water fill on far left;
circulator and spirovent with expantion on left;
future solar and storage on top.

I have been on this forum for a little over a year and most of my posts have been to ask questions. The people on this forum are amazing. Thanks to all who contribute.

Dean

Nicely done! Both in the design and the construction. And great idea of mounting the loop horizontally. And, yes, this forum and its inhabitants are remarkable. If only more of the spirit here- do worthwhile stuff, help others, get along-- could be "innoculated" into other spheres of the world

pybyr · Dec 4, 2008

Mysticfalcon said:
I'm very curious to see how that turns out. I'm amazed that those twin tees will work set up so compactly like that. the extra expense for them looks like it would be made up for in space and the amount of pipe you need. But looking at them I see no reason why they wouldn't work just fine.

I "cross-examined" Taco's tech folks pretty ruthlessly about this (whether the twin tees can be so close to each other or to other fittings and devices, because it seems to go against all the "rules" you read about closely spaced tees, whether in old B&G;literature or in Siegenthaler) but they assured me that this has been tested and used in demanding high end applications and that the way that the twin tee has a side-by-side arrangement makes it work fine even when they are crammed in close.

Dean's post of his elegant loop made me dig out some photos I took of my own twin tees before I started putting things together, so if a picture is worth a KiloWord, here are some; I'll probably have to do multiple posts to have them come through in good resolution

pybyr · Dec 4, 2008

here's a twin tee looking from the primary pipe side of things

this is a 1.25" "main line" with 3/4" secondaries

pybyr · Dec 4, 2008

and, if the technology continues to cooperate, here comes the photo of the "Primary Loop Grande" in progress (and awaiting some more time and attention which will hopefully materialize this Sunday).

Twin tees at all points for entry and exit from the primary (with some extras thrown in for future flexibility for hoped-for eventual things like solar or radiant floor).

Wilo Star 3 speed pump. Caleffi air separator at top, and "Dirt Cal" cleaner at bottom; Caleffi solar-rated expansion tank hung from the lower port of the air separator, and Caleffi fill-regulator and backflow preventer "aiming into" the upper port of the Dirt Cal.

PS, if you enlarge this and look closely at the back of the Econourn, you'll see that I did a horizontal cut across the back panels (after carefully removing them) so that when it comes time to scrub out the fire tubes for periodic maintenance, I can more easily get to the upper back of the innards of the unit without having to remove or partially remove the whole back panel, or affect the wiring. I ran this by the guys at Econoburn before I did it, and they said that they saw no harm.

Hope I have not hijacked the thread, and that I don't seem like I am grandstanding; in reality, I am way behind where I hoped to be on getting this all final and running, but it's all gradually progressing as life permits.

Rickard · Dec 4, 2008

one more photo

Rickard · Dec 5, 2008

It looks great Trevor. Is the orientation in the photo the way it will ultimately sit? I also put a dirt separator on my storage tank secondary on the side that will pull from near the bottom of the tanks. I figure it would be the prime source of debris but ultimatley all water will flow through that section anyway.
The twin tee seems to take all of the guess work out of P/S piping. Great for non-pros like myself. Though I imagine if I were a pro I would still do it this way. The cost of the Tees more than offset the extra time and piping necessary.

pybyr · Dec 5, 2008

Rickard said:
It looks great Trevor. Is the orientation in the photo the way it will ultimately sit? I also put a dirt separator on my storage tank secondary on the side that will pull from near the bottom of the tanks. I figure it would be the prime source of debris but ultimatley all water will flow through that section anyway.
The twin tee seems to take all of the guess work out of P/S piping. Great for non-pros like myself. Though I imagine if I were a pro I would still do it this way. The cost of the Tees more than offset the extra time and piping necessary.

thanks for the feedback, and yes, it will still be oriented vertically- I'll be using hangars and brackets to suspend both top and bottom of the loop from the floor joists (both top and bottom so that the loop does not have to carry the full weight from the top)

I went vertical partly to orient the air outlet at the very top and the dirt outlet at the very bottom, figuring that each would be at top performance that way, and partly because I never thought of the idea of doing it horizontally until seeing your photos. also because my cellar ceiling is low and already occupied by ductwork that's going to stay, at least for the short haul. I also

if I'd seen your idea before I started sweating fittings, I might have tried to plan a compact horizontal ring

Taco's got a patent on the Twin Tee, so no one could do this commercially, but it strikes me that you could almost do a batch of twin tee type fittings on a single trunk-- and I suppose that, at that point, it'd start to look and work a bit like a hydraulic separator - or maybe, at that point, you'd sensibly just do a separator?

Rickard · Dec 6, 2008

With black iron fittings, I don't think I would want to put them too close. It could make it hard to assemble. If it were all soldered I guess it wouldn't matter much.

Dean

Rickard · Dec 16, 2008

I just finished plumbing my 2 500 gallon propane tanks to the system. I used two circulators, back to back, reverse of each other. It works great. I get plenty of flow. I have them wired so that they can never be on at the same time. This greatly simplifies storage plumbing. No zone valves or check valves or complicated loops. Just two circulators and the Twin tee. One pipe goes to the tops of the tanks and one pipe goes to near the bottoms with a copper dip tube that I made to help with stratification.

Next up is insulation. I'm thinking of making a box of 1" foam and using blown-in insulation to fill it about 2' above and 1' around the tanks.

Dean

sdrobertson · Dec 16, 2008

Rickard said:
Next up is insulation. I'm thinking of making a box of 1" foam and using blown-in insulation to fill it about 2' above and 1' around the tanks.

Dean

I have 14 inches around the sides and started with 3' above my tanks. The tops settled quite a bit so I added 4' of Styrofoam beads (the stuff they use to fill concrete blocks) as this is lighter but it won't take the direct 180 degree temps. Its in a uninsulated pole barn and the roof doesn't show any heat loss when its frosted. I've been pleased with the results.

Steaming Pile · Dec 16, 2008

Post some pics when you get a chance.

pybyr · Dec 16, 2008

sdrobertson said:
Rickard said:

Next up is insulation. I'm thinking of making a box of 1" foam and using blown-in insulation to fill it about 2' above and 1' around the tanks.

Dean

Click to expand...

I have 14 inches around the sides and started with 3' above my tanks. The tops settled quite a bit so I added 4' of Styrofoam beads (the stuff they use to fill concrete blocks) as this is lighter but it won't take the direct 180 degree temps. Its in a uninsulated pole barn and the roof doesn't show any heat loss when its frosted. I've been pleased with the results.

remind me- are you the guy who stood multiple tanks vertically?

sdrobertson · Dec 16, 2008

pybyr said:
sdrobertson said:

Rickard said:

Next up is insulation. I'm thinking of making a box of 1" foam and using blown-in insulation to fill it about 2' above and 1' around the tanks.

Dean

Click to expand...

I have 14 inches around the sides and started with 3' above my tanks. The tops settled quite a bit so I added 4' of Styrofoam beads (the stuff they use to fill concrete blocks) as this is lighter but it won't take the direct 180 degree temps. Its in a uninsulated pole barn and the roof doesn't show any heat loss when its frosted. I've been pleased with the results.

Click to expand...

remind me- are you the guy who stood multiple tanks vertically?

Correct - I stood 4 on end. I'm still happy with the results.

EDIT-Sorry Rickard, I didn't mean to hyjack the Taco Twin Tee post.

Rickard · Dec 16, 2008

No problem sdrobertson. It is all related.

What kind of insulation did you use? Anyone using blown in cellulose? Is that what settled?

Dean

Rickard · Dec 16, 2008

Here's the after picture. I am planning on building a rigid frame that I can climb on, from the front, to access the valves. I am thinking that one tank in the winter may be better and two in the warmer months due to more heat getting used right away from the source. Does that make sense?

I forgot to ask. What size tanks are those sdrobertson?

Thanks

Dean

sdrobertson · Dec 17, 2008

They are 500 gallon tanks for a total of 2000 gallons. I stood them upright on semi rims. The bottom 14 inches or so is filled with Styrofoam balls and then blown in cellulose. I researched all the options, and the best would be to spray foam but that was way to expensive. I went with the cellulose as it can take extended periods of 190 plus temps (which the Styrofoam cannot) and its supposed to be rodent proof. I filled my box about 2 1/2' over my tanks and they settled approximately 1 to 1 1/2 feet down so I then put 4' or so of the balls as they are allot lighter and with the insulation still over the tanks, they can take the heat. The gentlemen I bought the supplies from stated that the balls would work better because they don't settle, but they couldn't take the heat I wanted. When I blew in the cellulose, I tried to dense pack it as well as I could but its over 10' tall to the bottom so it still settled. I'd build the box as large as I could and then use all the tanks all the time. If you don't have much standby loss, then all your doing is buying time between firings. I wanted to be able to go for a while in case of a emergency and I had to leave the house for a while and not have to worry. Worst case, I could turn the temp down to 50 in the house and not worry for quite a while.

pybyr · Dec 17, 2008

if you use cellulose, as long as you do it properly and use a blower to chop it to the right texture, and keep some access to the top, settling is correctible- just add more, later.

settling may actually be a benign indicator that it has found some voids that it did not initially fill, but slowly spread out and filled in

if you acheive actual dense pack densities, it should not settle. depending on the shape and size of the space that may be easier said than done

but again, you can always supplement later

Rickard · Dec 17, 2008

Great!

Thanks Guys.

Dean

Taco twin tees

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