Jotul Castine - damper not working or too much air from OAK? PIC ADDED

fjordrr · Dec 4, 2008

Well my Jotul Castine was finally installed & passed inspection before Thanksgiving

But we seem to have an issue.... the damper does not seem to control the fire at all. Ex: tonight I shut the damper - i.e. moved the lever all the way to the left - and the flames just kept on roaring on high until all the wood was burned up really quickly. It was like I had the damper wide open!

So our thoughts now are... Is there something wrong with the damper and it's not really closing?

Could the Outside Air Kit be delivering too much air somehow, overriding the function of the damper?

Any ideas are appreciated!

begreen · Dec 4, 2008

You can check the air control operation by removing the 2 (10mm?) bolts that hold down the air control cover (the doghouse). It's at the bottom front of the firebox That will expose the air control. Move the lever back and forth and make sure that it controls the slider valve in the corresponding direction.

gpcollen1 · Dec 4, 2008

Yeah - what BG said - if you move the lever [Air Setting Handle as per manual and not a damper at all] back and forth you should hear a piece of metal [sliding vent] sliding with it. You can also just pull those 2 bolts out and see this in action. I assume that this has become disconnected b/c that Castine should not burn like that with the primary air cut down - unless maybe you have significant gasket leakage??

meathead · Dec 4, 2008

Like said - remove cover and check to see that lever is operating the slider valve. It is fairly common that the slider valve rattle loose during shipping - and for some reason I have yet to hear from anyone whose dealer said "hey, you should check this out before you fire it up". Also - if this is your first experience with an EPA stove, the air control lever doesn't control the fire like the damper on an airtight stove. You can get it cranking, shut the air down, and the secondary will feed the fire and keep it cruising right along on the new stoves. You won't see the fire react like on an airtight stove, but once you run it a bit you'll find you can get good control of cruising temps.

polaris · Dec 4, 2008

Make sure your ash pan door is firmly closed and not leaking. The fire can get real hot real fast if the ash door lets any air in at all.

kjklosek · Dec 4, 2008

Also, what is your chimney set-up and how big are the pieces you are putting in the stove?

If the wood is really dry and the pieces are small, then you are running the risk of having the stove run away on you.

Could be too much draft.

Also how hot is the stove before you start adjusting the air?

This happens to my Oslo sometimes. I can shut the primary all the way and the burn is going well with surface temps around 450 - 550. Then all of a sudden the fire starts to really get going. The firebox is completley full of flames and surface temps can get around 800.

I have a piece of wadded up tin foil I use to put into the secondary intake, where you have the OAK. This will considerably slow the burn down and bring it back under control. The foil is wadded up enough so that the suction at the secondary inlet holds it in place and after the fire slows the foil drops out.

Now I use big splits for overnight burning and that really helps to get a good even burn for a long time.

J.P.

fjordrr · Dec 4, 2008

Hey, thanks everyone for the excellent replies!

re: the damper/air control handle: we were unable to find any screws this morning? Perhaps it was the lack of coffee... but there was a cover that came off, couldn't really see the operation of the unit but it is making a metallic noise. I guess that is our first challenge tonight after work - figure out how to view this. (Update - just heard from the dealer, I guess the screws are only accessible when the door is open).

This is our first experience with an EPA stove, so thanks for pointing out they behave differently than the oldies we're used to. Still, I would think moving the air control lever all the way to the left would stop a roaring inferno? I recall the temp was 600 last night when I tried to crank it down.

The ash pan appeared to be completely closed.

The chimney is a straight vertical run up thru a single story roof. We had to go ?5 feet? higher than normal outside because we were too close to a 2nd story roofline. (Needed 10', only had 8').

The pieces are a mix of short and large, I didn't stoke the stove last night myself so I can't say exactly what size was in there. It is very dry, tested it with my Lignomat before I bought the wood (my wood isn't ready yet).

I usually don't try to adjust the stove down until I get up over 400. But then we've only got a few days practice here!

So... tonight wrestle with the air control lever - I hope it IS loose, at least I'll have an explanation and something to fix!

meathead · Dec 4, 2008

600 stovetop is actually the high end of the normal range for the stove - you aren't into overfire territory at that temp. At around 500* to 600* you should be able to swing your air control lever all the way to the left and the stove actually should do exactly what it sounds like it tried to do - cruise at right around that temp with the fire being fed by the secondary burn tubes and then slowly cool down into the 350* to 450* range and hang on there until down to coals - then continue to cool down from there as the coals smolder down. One thing to keep in mind is that an "inferno" in the firebox at these temps is likely a good secondary burn with a lot of the flame being the result of burning wood gas and not just flames licking off the wood itself.

I wasn't there so I'm not going to say you're all clear - but I will tell you that from first impressions it seems that what you are describing is exactly what I went through getting used to the jotul f600. I was used to air tight stoves - you shut off the air, the fire goes out. The first time I saw 550* and closed the air control lever down on the F600 only to see the temp rise and cruise at 600* I was standing over my stove with a fire extinguisher wondering why the temps wouldn't go down. I dissasembled my slider valve, inspected everything, and was shocked to see that everything was working perfectly.

meathead · Dec 5, 2008

Kat - hope everything checks out ok with your slider valve. Here is a quote from your stove's manual -
" The optimum surface temperature range for the most efficient burn is between 400° and 600°"

I'm sure you have a manual, but if you don't you can find it at http://www.jotul.com/FileArchive/Technical Documentation/Wood Stoves/Jøtul F 400 Castine/Manual_F_400_USA_P02_150508.pdf

Hope this leaves you feeling a little more secure about the way your new stove reacts to the air control.

fjordrr · Dec 5, 2008

Thanks M.H. for the further reply. We removed the access cover last night, and the air control lever is functioning properly, so your description of standing over your first secondary burn with a fire extinguisher not only made me laugh, but also just might be what is going on. I hope.

I knew 600 was the top end of the temp range, and that's why I turned the air control lever all the way to the left to close it off as I did not want the stove to go higher than that. I did expect the fire to practically go out after doing that, but apparently that is not what happens with these stoves so I am learning, thanks. I'm still astonished that it appeared to have no effect whatsoever on dampening the "inferno" flames, tho. And the wood burned up so dang fast with the air lever closed.... Not exactly what I had in mind for heating the house overnight, hmmm....

I'm going to build some rip-roaring fires this weekend and do some more experimenting. Including maybe using some duct tape over the OAK on my outside wall to see what that will do. Frankly, I only put it in because of the WA state law.

Thanks again for the continued help!

gpcollen1 · Dec 5, 2008

When I get My Jotul into that 550-650 range - yeah 650 b/c that is where it tends to go quickly on my stovetop thermo and i dont know how accurate it is - I go down to half way or 2/3 closed. No need to slide it all the way left. Have fun playing around with the stove this weekend.

begreen · Dec 5, 2008

If the stove goes up to 750 occasionally it's no big deal. It can easily take it. Try to keep it under 800 and you'll be fine.

Don't put duct tape over the OAK without disconnecting it from the stove. Otherwise it will not have any air supply.

PS: What is Seattle Eastside? Bellevue?

fjordrr · Dec 5, 2008

We had a cold morning here (inbetween Issaquah/N. Bend area, BeGreen) so I started a fire before I went to work. It got up to 600 right before I had to leave, so I did turn the air control lever all the way left to off, watched it for a couple of minutes and the flames were just roaring - again, no difference in the level of flames whether the lever is open or closed. So my conclusion is, the air control lever has no effect on the secondary (gas) burn?

I yanked on the ash pan door handle really hard a couple of times to make sure it was closed & it popped open (maybe I tweaked it while yanking?) and the influx of air made a big "whoosh" & increase in the flames. So I quickly closed it again, yanked a couple more times for good measure and it stayed shut. Flames returned to the "normal" inferno level.

I had to leave so couldn't watch any longer. This is still bugging me, it just doesn't seem like I have any control over the burn....

P.S. Thanks for telling me not to block the OAK off while connected!

kjklosek · Dec 5, 2008

I think you may be waiting too long before shutting down the air.

Sounds like you have plenty of draft.

Try shutting the air about 1/2 way when you get about 300 - 400 on your thermometer. At this point you should have pretty good secondary combustion. Probably have lots of orange flames in the firebox.

Once you close the air by half, in about 10 - 15 minutes the flames may subside but you will have either fire at the top of the stove or it will look like there are flames shooting out of the burn tubes. Stovetop temp should rise about 50-100 degrees.

Now shut the air down all the way and see what happens. You may get slow wafting flames and still have the secondaries going well or the fire may almost go out. As long as there is fire in the box at the top you are probably in good shape. If not open the air some more.

This is pretty much how I run mine and after I close most of the air off the surface temps will generally climb to around 550 and stay there and gradually come down. Each set-up is unique so take this advice as a broad overview for operating a Jotul.

I think at 600 degrees you have basically caught the whole pile on fire and the only real way to slow the fire is to regulate the secondary air or have a flue damper.

J.P.

fjordrr · Dec 16, 2008

I thought I would add a pic of what I am talking about. This is my Castine running at 500 degrees with the damper completely shut. Does this look right to everyone?

Cearbhaill · Dec 16, 2008

SmokinJoe said:
I think you may be waiting too long before shutting down the air.

Me, too.
When you reload only leave it wide open until everything is burning well- 10 minutes or so. Then shut down the air and it won't rise as high before peaking.
Cut the air too soon and it doesn't burn hot enough. Wait too long and it gets so hot you get nervous. There is a sweet spot there, you just have to experiment until you find it.

begreen · Dec 16, 2008

Could be you need a manual damper on the flue to slow it down a bit. But first I would try closing down the air control maybe 5 minutes earlier. FWIW, the stove top temps don't seem unusually high.

Of greater concern are the clearances. It looks like the stove is right up against the wall. What is the distance to the combustibles behind the wall?

dvellone · Dec 16, 2008

I've got a straight run up through the house also and if I let my castine get up to 600 degrees before shutting it down the secondary really seems to go into overdrive and the fire burns more quickly. That secondary, if you're not used to it, can give the impression of a wide open burn.

I've found in my particular heating circumstance here that I can start cutting back the air control at somewhere around 300 and shut it down completely at around 400 and the stove will climb up to 500 and cruise there for a good while (depending what species I'm burning). Based only on my personal experience (and 1st year with the castine), running the stove open until 600 degrees seems like demanding the top output of the stove. I can take my surface temp to 450 - 500, shut it down and it'll climb up to and maintain 600 if that's what I need. So far, my chimney is clean as a whistle.

fjordrr · Dec 16, 2008

Well everyone, I must eat a huge piece of humble pie. It WAS the ash pan, despite the fact one could yank on the ash pan door vigorously without it opening. How is this you ask? Well, to absolutely close this thing, it requires one to:

*Push up on the lower left corner of the door so things align properly
*Absolutely ream with major force on the handle until it is the handle is absolutely vertical 90 degrees.

This last one is difficult - it will occasionally pop out to the right just a hair, hard to see. When this occurs, you can pull on the door and it does not open. Yet it is not sealed completely. Aaargh! Hope my idiocy helps some other poor soul out there.

BeGreen - re: clearances - that pic is a little deceiving, the stove is actually about 7" to the rock, and has 12" of clearance to combustibles. Behind the rock (real rock BTW, thin veneer river rock) is Durock & metal studs. So first combustible is the exterior plywood sheathing on the right. I purchased the rear heat shield so my required clearance is only 11" to combustibles.

meathead · Dec 17, 2008

Was going to say you can see the cleanout door handle peeking out in your pic not turned all the way closed. Shouldn't be THAT much effort to close it though...

Glad you solved your problem. To be honest I'm surprised you didn't see higher stove temps with the door partially opened.

begreen · Dec 17, 2008

Kat said:
Well everyone, I must eat a huge piece of humble pie. It WAS the ash pan, despite the fact one could yank on the ash pan door vigorously without it opening. How is this you ask? Well, to absolutely close this thing, it requires one to:

*Push up on the lower left corner of the door so things align properly
*Absolutely ream with major force on the handle until it is the handle is absolutely vertical 90 degrees.

This last one is difficult - it will occasionally pop out to the right just a hair, hard to see. When this occurs, you can pull on the door and it does not open. Yet it is not sealed completely. Aaargh! Hope my idiocy helps some other poor soul out there.

BeGreen - re: clearances - that pic is a little deceiving, the stove is actually about 7" to the rock, and has 12" of clearance to combustibles. Behind the rock (real rock BTW, thin veneer river rock) is Durock & metal studs. So first combustible is the exterior plywood sheathing on the right. I purchased the rear heat shield so my required clearance is only 11" to combustibles.

The ashpan door should close easily. However, it if a bunch of ash has collected at the back of the ash pan's receptacle at the bottom of the stove, it will push out the ash pan slightly and make it hard to close the door. Get in there with a poker, break up the compacted ash and scrape it out.

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Jotul Castine - damper not working or too much air from OAK? PIC ADDED